Poll: Diet Superman

[MeatMachine]

On his own, Superman doesn't interest me much - one of the reasons being his titanic abilities.

When other superheroes, particularly the Justice League, create a dynamic among themselves, I think Superman's godlike complexion even among other exceptionally powerful characters is one of the most fascinating dynamics in comics, and the basis for a lot of conflicts.

In most iterations of the Justice League (again), Superman is seen as a superweapon - a borderline trump card. Although much of this outlook goes unspoken among them, Batman always carries kryptonite on him as a countermeasure in case Superman goes rogue or gets corrupted somehow (which has happened several times). Additionally, Superman's greatest nightmare is becoming so unwieldingly powerful that he inadvertently kills and destroys those he loves and seeks to protect - which is half of the reason why he is usually expressly concerned with practicing restraint and solving problems with as minimal effort as requires.

These themes of Superman's indestructibility and measureless abilities are fantastic traits when expressed as a double-edged sword among heroes and "good guys". Unfortunately, they are a lot harder to express on screen to an audience with only a passing familiarity with the comic universe, so they are usually either botched horribly or outright neglected.

 

[mduncan50]

Curious as to the origin of your Marvel cough. I mean sure gaining powers will almost always separate you from the majority of society, but I've always found Marvel characters to, for the most part, be more relatable and "human" as it were, when compared to the god-like beings of DC. And I'm not saying one is better than the other. I think it is great to have the two different perspectives and that THAT is the difference that DC films should try to focus on rather than trying to be "grounded" and "serious".

The cough was more having to do with being out of touch with the people.

Still not sure what you mean though. How is Marvel and DC out of touch with the people?

 

[DEAD34345]

Superman is infinitely more relatable than Batman on the most basic level. Superman is a guy that was raised in Kansas and who has a grounded view and morals implanted in him by the Kents that raised him. Batman is a rich kid with dead parents, who is good at everything, and has all the best gadgets in the world. You tell me which one best fits you as a person? -snip-

Um... The one who isn't an alien god with super powers? Come on, you can't just leave out the part that makes your argument ridiculous, that's cheating. Relating to someone with more money or skills than me isn't that difficult. Certainly less so than relating to someone who is born with abilities so great that he's the most powerful being on the planet without even trying.

I don't like superman for many reasons, but the main one for me is that there's just nothing interesting about his personality or emotions. Yeah, sure, he stands for "Truth, Justice and the American Way!", but anyone could stand for that if they were born with godlike superpowers. He never seems to be challenged in any particular way, either psychologically or physically, so what is there for me to care about?

Batman isn't the greatest character or anything, but at least he has some edges. He's clearly pretty much as psychotic as the villains he fights, his motives are closer to more human desires like revenge rather than trying to flawlessly embody some perfect ideal, and the morality of what he does is often cast into serious doubt. There's lots of interesting things that can be done with that.

Superman does the right thing, always, and succeeds, always. That's kind of his deal and the whole point of his character, he's a super man. That is incredibly boring to me.

OT: If you nerfed superman it wouldn't be superman anymore. Would it be interesting? I don't know, it depends how it was done, I suppose. Why do that rather than just make up a new superhero with lesser powers, though? It'd piss off a lot less people that way.

 

[The White Hunter]

He's fucking space jesus he isn't supposed to be relatable. Nerfing him just removes the only remotely interesting thing about him.

 

[Something Amyss]

So I've got like eight responses in my inbox. I'll do a few now and more later. Sorry I haven't got back to people, I've just been very, very tired the last couple of days.

You don't pay attention to Marvel comics do you? If Captain America is a C-Lister, then Marvel just has a far better list than DC. (I do think that, but it sounds snippier this way)

The amazing thing is that I'm almost universally considered a Marvel fangirl. So it would be something if I didn't pay attention to Marvel. Though since you agree that Marvel has a "far better list," this shouldn't be a surprise. Superman tends to be beat out by only Batman in terms of popularity, with the occasional Spider-Man entry. Outside of the Holy Trinity, recognition drops off fast. This always surprised me because I thought Green Lantern was better known than he apparently is.

No one likes Superman. Even people who like DC more don't do so cause of Superman.

Then a lot of people are lying. There are all sorts of excuses, but Supes does remain a popular character and the best known.

Well, I also said

You can never be Superman, but you can still stand for what Superman stands for: Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

I'm not sure that's the same as relating to him, however. Which was what I said.

I don't think that its without merit. Imagine a Clark Kent in WWII without superpowers. Would he go to fight the Nazis? Absolutely. Would he jump on a grenade for somebody else because he's just that sort of person? Absolutely. Would he stand up against a government, even his own government, to do the morally right thing? Well he's done that before.

So would Flash Thompson. It may not be without merit, but I'm not sure it's close to an A:A comparison, either.

*cough*

In fairness, I suspect you are actually an alternate reality version of me.

It would help. Obviously the stories you can tell with a God-tier hero are different than ones with a basically very powerful human who can fly and punch real good. And I don't see why we couldn't have both kinds of stories in different AUs.
And you can do a story with a god-like Superman who can do anything, (Like Red Son) and that works on its own short story.

I think they've attempted to do this. I think another portion of the issue is that they've actually scaled Superman back several times over the course of his history (albeit after powering him up quite a bit), and the authors seem to push back. This is part of where Superman's inconsistency comes from (along with Golden and Silver Age weirdness, etc).

While the 'Batman wins everything' turn DC has taken kind be over played and depressing, it doesn't play much of a part, for me at least, when it comes relatability. I suppose I could see how it could for others.

I'm actually surprised anyone finds Batman relatable, anyway. Clark is often portrayed as a working class, heartland kind of guy. Bruce Wayne, even if he's supposed to be one of the heroes, is not far removed from Monty Burns. One's the sort of guy that we (as a culture) supposedly admire, and the other is the group we supposedly despise. Bruce Wayne represents the elite on almost every level. Granted, both are portrayed ridiculously inconsistently, but it really seems like fascist, terrorist Batman is the one that's been popular in the modern age.

Anyway, this ties back to the "Batman wins at everything" thing because he's often more inhuman than Superman is in my eyes. Layers of plot armour so thick he could probably sit on a nuke and survive. Capable of everything. Despite "having no powers," the guy seems more indestructable than the Man of Steel.

I can understand his motivations, but I don't think I can relate to them.

Contrast to Superman, I find his situation hard to fathom, but his motivations utterly relatable. We as humans often fall short. I've done things I'm not proud of out of basic survival alone. But what if we effectively had no limits?

Also, I get what you said before about not looking for superheroes to be relatable, but this is a really common complaint, which is what made me curious.

 

[DeimosMasque]

I am a huge fan of Superman. I completely hated Man of Steel and I completely hated Batman vs. Superman. It just feels like people missed the point of Superman. Yes he's invulnerable. Yes he's super-strong. Yes they create powers for him when they need it (back in Gold and Silver age )

But that's not the point of him. And I actually think that more recent writers miss the point of him. Grant Morrison seem to have gotten the point with All Star Superman but then missed the point with his Action Comics reboot for The New 52.

It doesn't matter how strong, tough, or whatever he can do Underwriters need him to do it. The point is Superman is that he is better than all of us. Not because of his powers but because of his ethics and morals. He is an alien god who can easily rule over all of us but he doesn't. He's better than that.

In his mind He's from small-town America... So small-town it is called Smallville and he believes in helping other people, not because it's right even if it is. But because he is the alien god who was instilled with the concept that every life is precious. That is the point that is often missed with Superman.

Not Our Savior.

Not Our God.

Just an ordinary man from a small town given extraordinary abilities and realizes that his goal, his responsibility is to use those powers to help us all.

He is not Superman, he is not the Man of Steel, he is the Man of Tomorrow.

The man who sacrifices everything for life itself. Because it's the right thing to do. A man who considers getting a cat out of a tree for a child just as worth while as stopping the next great threat to the planet.

Call him naive, a boy scout, an idiot... Whatever. But Superman is and always has been the symbol of what Humanity could be if they would just shed their self-interest.

Attempts to "humanize" him fail because he is the pinacle of what a human SHOULD be. He is Humanity's guily conscience

 

[SweetShark]

I am a huge fan of Superman. I completely hated Man of Steel and I completely hated Batman vs. Superman. It just feels like people missed the point of Superman. Yes he's invulnerable. Yes he's super-strong. Yes they create powers for him when they need it (back in Gold and Silver age )

But that's not the point of him. And I actually think that more recent writers miss the point of him. Grant Morrison seem to have gotten the point with All Star Superman but then missed the point with his Action Comics reboot for The New 52.

It doesn't matter how strong, tough, or whatever he can do Underwriters need him to do it. The point is Superman is that he is better than all of us. Not because of his powers but because of his ethics and morals. He is an alien god who can easily rule over all of us but he doesn't. He's better than that.

In his mind He's from small-town America... So small-town it is called Smallville and he believes in helping other people, not because it's right even if it is. But because he is the alien god who was instilled with the concept that every life is precious. That is the point that is often missed with Superman.

Not Our Savior.

Not Our God.

Just an ordinary man from a small town given extraordinary abilities and realizes that his goal, his responsibility is to use those powers to help us all.

He is not Superman, he is not the Man of Steel, he is the Man of Tomorrow.

The man who sacrifices everything for life itself. Because it's the right thing to do. A man who considers getting a cat out of a tree for a child just as worth while as stopping the next great threat to the planet.

Call him naive, a boy scout, an idiot... Whatever. But Superman is and always has been the symbol of what Humanity could be if they would just shed their self-interest.

Attempts to "humanize" him fail because he is the pinacle of what a human SHOULD be. He is Humanity's guily conscience

I hope eveything you said about Superman is true, because it seems indeed a very interesting character, but as I said it is not only about Superman. It is also about his allies and villains he is around him and how he face them. From the most comics/cartoons/movies I saw he just punch really hard, say something suitable for a Lawful Good DnD Character, defeat the villain.
Also the publishers have the need to show that every single villain Superman defeat have some kind of "Ace card" who can make it difficult for him to fight them.

That I am trying to say is, yes, if there are interesting story of Superman who show his personality better and not just show him how he just punch the evil dudes, then I would love to read/watch them.
A very good Example is the comic "Thor: The Mighty Avenger". Yes, Thor is a GOD, but it wasn't about how awesome was because of his powers, but as a stranger in our Human World and how he was interact with them.
If you didn't read the series, I highly recommended to you.

Do you have some suggestions for me to see what kind of Hero is Superman?

EDIT:
I think a good Superman Comic I saw was a crossover with Shazam, I don't know the name of it. I think [again] it was the first time I saw Superman at one point expressing two different kind of emotions: Angers and calmness. It was a beautiful moment. Plus the ending was awesome.

 

[mduncan50]

I hope eveything you said about Superman is true, because it seems indeed a very interesting character, but as I said it is not only about Superman. It is also about his allies and villains he is around him and how he face them. From the most comics/cartoons/movies I saw he just punch really hard, say something suitable for a Lawful Good DnD Character, defeat the villain.

Well then don't worry, Goyer and Snyder have already killed off his best friend, Jimmy Olson, in the Dawn of Justice (without even saying his name) and his greatest enemy, Lex Luthor, before the movie even began.

If you've not read it, I would suggest you check out Kingdom Come. It lets you see the complexity of the character, as well as why it is so important that he is who he is. It is technically an Elseworlds story, but it is definitely him. And it has been hinted over the years that it is actually a very probable future of the DC comics universe.

 

[verdant monkai]

Yes

Because most of these critics have never bought a superman comic let alone know that almost of his enemies could beat him in a fist fight.

In my opinion movie adaptations of comic books are cancer. And now that these adaptations are bleeding into actual comics, they've ruined them and changed them into something the movie goers would like. Big problem being movie watchers don't actually like comic books, they think they do but just because you googled who the members of suicide are, doesn't make you a comic nerd.

 

[Silence]

Well hes whole concept is to be better than anyone else and basically unkillable - which makes him boring, but also not really changeable.

 

[Nazulu]

Whether if he is relatable or not is subjective. And what makes him different from all the other hero's is that he is extremely powerful and tries to always make the right/best decision.

His problem is he's usually written awfully into milk movies (which are usually shit on their own), so we need someone who knows how to create interesting conflicts for him. I'm sure out of all the comics and TV shows there are bound to be a couple of story's that perfectly suit his character.

So my answer to your poll is critics have no idea what they want.

 

[loa]

Blizzard needs to nerf this right now.

 

[Bad Jim]

Because most of these critics have never bought a superman comic let alone know that almost of his enemies could beat him in a fist fight.

This is something that needs to be mentioned more often. Just off the top of my head . . .
Doomsday
Darkseid
Mxyzptlk
Brainiac
Zod

All these guys are credible threats that can stand up to Superman. The only exception is Lex Luthor, but he always cheats and uses Kryptonite. The whole "Superman is OP" thing is just not true.

 

[MCerberus]

Recently supes HAS been depowered, or rather de-creeped. He's now merely faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. And now since he's not a god he's been going around trying to reconnect to humanity.

But in general I've always liked the character better in his specials than the day-to-days. We're talking Hereafter on the Justice League cartoon, Red Sun, All-star, et al.

 

[09philj]

The real problem with Supes is his lack of a good rogue's gallery. Lex is the only really interesting antagonist.

 

[SweetShark]

The real problem with Supes is his lack of a good rogue's gallery. Lex is the only really interesting antagonist.

Not true, no true. If the publishers decide to put an actual effort making other characters around Superman interesting and rich with personality, even the weakest villain would be enjoyable.
Heck, even the old Superman Cartoons of Superman which have only one show villains are interesting.

 

[Odbarc]

Maybe if we saw Clark Kent doing people things he could be more relateable. Clark on a date when he can figure out people are lying to him on the date and how he's not supposed to react like Superman but as a human. Watch him try so hard and fitting in and failing some of the time. Or going too far with his attempts ostracizing him worse.

It's not that Superman has too much power. It's that he hasn't enough Clark. Making the right decision isn't what's difficult to write for him. Finding challenges that Superman can't handle shouldn't be the focus. Because he always ends up "puts a little bit more effort into trying" and it turns out he never really had a chance at losing.

What if Superman lost his powers for a month and found out being Clark Kent was a lot easier than he ever imagined? That he was far more capable then he thought his alter ego could ever have?

 

[mduncan50]

What if Superman lost his powers for a month and found out being Clark Kent was a lot easier than he ever imagined? That he was far more capable then he thought his alter ego could ever have?

Then right after he gets his powers back some guy's pissing him off, so he goes to punch him and accidentally sticks his fist through the guys head? Sorry, not what you were going for, but for some reason that's the image that stuck in my mind.