Poll: Digital Refund - Should it be an Option?

[bells]

Well, when you're buying from a digital distribution service, you're not buying a product; you're buying a license to play the game within whatever parameters were set forth in the service's user agreement. That said, while they certainly have no obligation to add a refund system, it would still be nice. Of course, a refund system would be extremely easy for gamers to exploit without certain restrictions. I'm thinking:

When you buy a Physical game, same thing. You are only acquiring a license to to play the code within the Disc. What you just wrote is literally the PR Spin they have been feeding us with in order to evade the fact that they don't want to attend to Consumers Rights using slippery slopes... they market and offer it as "Buy the game" not as "Buy a License to play the game".

And why don't they have this obligation? If i buy a book i have a time limit to return it and get store credit. Same with a Purse, a Bag, a Shirt, a TV... why games are allowed this Netherworld of Magical rules? Why digital games deserve this special exemption ? Why does DLC? Again... "cause it's hard to do" is not the consumers problem nor an excuse or an explanation.

-You could only refund within the first week after making the purchase.

I would be Ok with that, it's a fair amount of time to make up my mind.

-You only get about 90-95% of what you paid refunded to you.

Doubt it would ever be like that, probably more on the 60-70% range

-... Or maybe like what someone else said above, where you just get less refunded to you the longer you've had the game instead of having the one week time limit.

For my money i would suggest a cross of "Number of Refunds X Time passed" so if a LOT of people are asking refunds for the game, the value you get should be higher, if nobody is returning the game, then you could get less for it... and the longer after the purchase, the less it's worth. So, closer to what Physical game stores do...

-You can only refund about 3-4 games per year.

Now that just doesn't make any sense at all.

So the obvious problem with Digital game refunds is how ridiculously easy it would be to buy the game, download it and then "Refund it" whilst still having the game and all the necessary files needed for post-refund installation. The only solution to that? Always online DRM. So, well done, you'd essentially fuck everybody so that you didn't have to put any thought into how you spend your money you stupid motherfuckers.

OR just make the act of the Refund forcing a uninstall or delete of the title and removal of it from your account so you can't download again. Done. Also, Congratulations on being reported for some truly banal stuff....

my personal oppinion on the matter, is if you buy it, you keep it, no refunds. refunds are basically making piracy easier

And just how the hell does THAT work...?

Here is your problem, refunds are only for broken or improperly working products. if you buy a product and then don't like it, that is your own fault.

Are the Consumer Laws in the US that jaded and broken? You are not allowed to regret a purchase? Change your mind? You can be freely goaded by PR and Marketing and your only option is to "Take it and like it"?

 

[theultimateend]

my personal oppinion on the matter, is if you buy it, you keep it, no refunds. refunds are basically making piracy easier

I agree with this.

I can see no way that high priced high risk items with no reasonable means of vetting would ever lead to piracy.

I mean when I'm sitting on 60 bucks I love to just throw caution to the wind and end up with buyer's remorse.

Screw refunds, the consumer is the devil and we need to make sure they see that. I say throw those FBI warnings in the front of video games. We aren't really emphasizing that its all the fault of the consumers quite enough in this industry, the music and movie industry have it down to a science...HOP TO IT GAMING!

Here is your problem, refunds are only for broken or improperly working products. if you buy a product and then don't like it, that is your own fault.

So true! Sure this has never been the case in human history and you'll not be able to provide any examples to the contrary, but it feels like it could be true as long as nobody thinks about it for more than a second.

That, to me, is the best kind of truth. The kind that is only true as long as nobody scrutinizes it in the smallest way.

High five to you! Consumers are evil and stupid and should be punished for trusting producers of any kind.

"You expected that meat to not be tainted? Wow...what a retard. You wanted internet speeds that weren't artificially limited? Hah...man you suck. You can't predict how good a game is merely by an inflated review score and some choice screenshots? Well I hate to break this to you but your mother thinks you were a mistake."

I'm all for this, I like the militant approach to capitalism. Sure historically there is no foundation for this mindset but it certainly makes life easier for millionaires.

 

[targren]

here is the thing though, if i buy a game in it's physical form and i don't like it, i can return it.

No you can't.
You couldn't for years and especially not nowadays where every game locks itself to some online BS so that the physical copy can't be used by someone else unless you give out your password with it.
Consumer rights being trampled on is nothing new when it comes to software.

That depends on where he is. Not every country in the world has the same disdain for consumer protection that the U.S. does.

 

[bells]

Indeed i'm not from the US, but i was fairly certain that you had the option of at least trading in or returning games for store credit, even if that's not an option it strikes me as backwards flipping bonkers that people wouldn't rally to make it so.

The consumers complained about DRM so much that now "DRM Free" is a Bullet Point for SELLING games, and yet somehow a Digital Refund system seems like an impossibility because "that's how it is"... what kind of mentality is that?

Hell, you let consumers return and refund their shitty DLC or games and turn that into Marketing DATA and you'll sure as hell see some changes on how games are marketed and sold in no time...

Instead of having to put all my trust into some PR Spinned talks, trailers and altered Screenshots or worst having to take all my cues from Reviews that may or may not be objetive or biased instead of having the proper right as a consumer to return an item if it does not meet satisfaction just seems insane.

 

[distortedreality]

I can sell my physical copies.

Not on PC you can't.

And therein lies one of the reasons why I've never been a PC gamer primarily. Master race my ass... more like slaves.

Of course, PC gamers did dig there one holes in a lot of cases (ie. Steam, DD, etc...) It's too bad pirates messed up the rest.

As I said above, it's got nothing to do with digital downloads from places like Steam. Online key authentication was the start, digital downloads hasn't really changed the situation much.

Personally, it doesn't bother me at all. It puts more responsibility on the buyer to be sure of what they're buying, which really isn't that difficult. Maybe console gamers should learn to be more responsible for their own purchases before blaming others if they don't like something?

Slaves? No, we're just smarter

 

[Xanthious]

Absolutely! I'd go as far as to limit it to the first 12 hours or so though ideally. The Android Marketplace (Or Google Play) offers a refund for a certain amount of time on everything they sell. It's not a very long period at all. I think it might be around 15 minutes. That's more than enough time to download a phone app and monkey around with it for a few minutes though and make sure it runs on your phone.

It's nice knowing that if something doesn't work right with my phone for whatever reason I'm able to return it. Also if I try something out and it just isn't to my liking I can also return it within the allotted time period. That being said, I don't think I've ever gotten a refund on but two or three apps in the 3+ years I've been using an Android phone.

I would love to see digital purchases for platforms like XBN, PSN, Steam, GoG, etc adopt something like this. Hell even if it's only for the first hour after the download completes it's still better than what we currently have.

 

[Racecarlock]

I love how everyone uses the whole buyer beware argument. Okay, so today there are reviews and stuff on the internet. Reviews that can be paid for, it's been proven. But even if that weren't so, would this logic have worked in the 80s nintendo era, where there was essentially no internet with which to research?

And what really amazes me about the buyer beware support is that it's one of the monumental reasons why people keep buying call of duty year after year, because it's a series they know they'll like. You people essentially want "The masses" to invest time and money in indie games and the like so that we can get more innovation, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut if it turns out that game sucks, oh then it's buyer beware. You're asking them to take unnecessary risks with no safety nets whatsoever. So what do you want? People taking risks with the knowledge of a good safety net so that they can have just a little bit more power over their money and a little more confidence in buying innovative titles and new IPs, or do you want people to have no safety net, destroying their confidence and therefore making them only take safe bets, thus resulting in more samey COD games? Because you can't have the masses take risks and spending money on things they don't even know they'll like while simultaneously not having a safety net so they can get their money back and spend it on something else.

 

[SoranMBane]

Well, when you're buying from a digital distribution service, you're not buying a product; you're buying a license to play the game within whatever parameters were set forth in the service's user agreement. That said, while they certainly have no obligation to add a refund system, it would still be nice. Of course, a refund system would be extremely easy for gamers to exploit without certain restrictions. I'm thinking:

When you buy a Physical game, same thing. You are only acquiring a license to to play the code within the Disc. What you just wrote is literally the PR Spin they have been feeding us with in order to evade the fact that they don't want to attend to Consumers Rights using slippery slopes... they market and offer it as "Buy the game" not as "Buy a License to play the game".

And why don't they have this obligation? If i buy a book i have a time limit to return it and get store credit. Same with a Purse, a Bag, a Shirt, a TV... why games are allowed this Netherworld of Magical rules? Why digital games deserve this special exemption ? Why does DLC? Again... "cause it's hard to do" is not the consumers problem nor an excuse or an explanation.

They don't have any obligation with digital media because you signed a user agreement detailing the exact terms of the transaction before you spent the money. If you buy a book or any other physical product, you don't sign a user agreement at the register stating that you're only paying for a license to use that product for as long as it suits the retailer. You just paid for it; therefore, you own everything but the copyright to it. It should be the same way with physical games, and the fact that certain games, like Diablo III, force you to sign agreements after you've paid for them is complete bullshit that should definitely be cracked down on. But with games that you bought digitally? You signed the agreement when you made the account, and they make you agree again each time they make changes to it. So if the agreement said "no refunds," they have no obligation to give you a refund if you're dissatisfied. If you don't like the terms in the agreement, the answer is simple; don't buy digitally.

-You can only refund about 3-4 games per year.

Now that just doesn't make any sense at all.

There has to be some sort of limit to how many times someone can refund their games, because otherwise there'd be nothing to stop people from just refunding every game they buy after they're done with them. The consumer may not get all of the money they spent back, but the retailer would still lose out in the end without that restriction in place.

 

[The_Lost_King]

They can register any Digital purchase you make to your account. Why can't they refund me if i change my mind on some DLC i don't care for anymore? Or a Digital copy of a game?

Sorry, in DD you aren't buying the game - you are buying the licence to play the game. So: "no refund for you" (said in a Soup Nazi voice). You're lucky they don't just revoke your licence.

Fuck, I wish people would realize how DD services like Steam are a golden ticket to having our rights as consumers trampled. Enjoy your discounts now ladies, cause once physical copies are obsolete, we're all fucked.

You are only buying the license when you buy a physical copy too. You just also have a disc. Maybe it cracks, well sucks for you!

Unless the game doesn't work (not because the computer is too weak to handle it) I don't think the customer deserves a refund. Over here we can't get refund for physical games either. As soon as the box is open we have lost all for a refund so there's not much difference between physical and digital here. Also returning a game because you played it and didn't like it? That's a weak excuse for a refund.

Actually you can refund a physcical copy. Gamestop lets you return it for full value within a week.

*snip*
And I'm flabbergasted at the poll option currently winning is "Return within a week"! ***** I can beat most modern games in a week without even trying, You may as well just hand out games for free.

Hell, even if I DIDNT complete it in a week I could return it and then simply re-buy it; Giving me another week of free game play.

see above reply.

 

[Savo]

No, it just wouldn't work. Such a system would be far too easy to abuse.

Take the industry's current fascination with high-budget action-packed shooters that take 8 hours at the max. What's to prevent me from buying them left and right just to return them as soon as I'm done with them? Even if you had to return the games within a week or even a few days, a significant portion of games could be beaten and discarded within that time period.

People abuse a system like that to the max.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

Fuck that buyer beware bullshit, especially in this day and age where many companies aren't above flat out lying to the customer.

There's a thing called demos, maybe you've heard of them? If you pay a shit company money for a product before testing it out, that's your fault. Always wait for reviews. Always talk to other gamers. And if you can't be sure from that, always test out the product before buying it.

The only solution to that? Always online DRM.

That's ok; I don't understand what a server emulator is either.

OT - broken games can be refunded if purchased digitally (with Steam anyway). Shouldn't be able to get a refund for any other reason. If you don't like the game, you shouldn't of bought it.

^ This.

 

[distortedreality]

Personally, it doesn't bother me at all. It puts more responsibility on the buyer to be sure of what they're buying, which really isn't that difficult. Maybe console gamers should learn to be more responsible for their own purchases before blaming others if they don't like something?

Slaves? No, we're just smarter

We don't blame anyone (at least I don't). No, we just sell the copy and pick up something better. And yes, even after researching, you can get it wrong. Especially these days where reviews are nothing more than thinly veiled responses to how many advertising dollars were thrown in.

Last game I resold was DA:O. Fucking terrible game that - and I'm a huge RPG fan. Of course, my tastes can sometimes border on the obscure/ niche.

Smarter (hahahaha) no.... If you were smarter you wouldn't swallow that shit they serve you constantly. I know you've admitted to having grown complacent to it all.... that's really sad.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - JFK

So, if you don't blame anyone else, you admit that buying a game that you don't like was your mistake? Why should anyone else have to take responsibility for your actions then?

As far as getting it wrong, I haven't in a long time. I don't read reviews. The only reviews I pay any attention to are Yahtzee's, and that's for pure entertainment value, I frequently disagree with his (stated) opinions. There are plenty of other legal ways to find out if you like a game or not before buying.

See, if you were a PC gamer, you would of noticed the tongue in cheek nature of the last sentence of my previous post. What I find it ridiculous is that console gamers have the easiest way of testing games before buying, yet they seem to be the most adamant that they deserve refunds whenever they want if they don't like a game.

I'm not quite sure how you come to the conclusion that I "swallow the shit the serve me constantly". It actually seems, from the tone of your posts, that you're the one who keeps swallowing shit and asks the corporate giants to pat you on the back just so you can regurgitate it and change it to something slightly less shitty, just for the joy of swallowing again. Sorry if I don't agree with that, but when you choose to swallow shit, you should be stuck with it.

And lol at calling game companies evil. They're not evil - (a lot of) gamers are just stupid.

 

[Riki Darnell]

The only time a digital refund would be appropriate would be if the game/download itself was broken, rendering you unable to play it. Returning because you are bored of it doesn't really work for a digital platform. How would they resell a digital copy?

I agree. If it doesn't work or downloaded wrong then you should be able to get a refund or get another download of it.

here is the thing though, if i buy a game in it's physical form and i don't like it, i can return it. I can even get a refund. Trade ir for another game! Sure, i don't get full value back... but i can at least move up a game i don't like or don't want anymore in favor of something i do want.

Not with digital distribution though...

and why DLC doesn't fit in that category? Is it not a item i bought? Is it no an essencial part of a product? So i can return and get a refund from a physical game i bought but i don't have any right to request refund out of DLC i bought for the same game?

Now correct me if I'm wrong but if you buy a new game from Gamestop and open it and don't like it you can return it for an equal trade but do not get a refund (or atleast not what you paid?) but if it's used you have 7 days to get a refund. This is why refunding a digital copy would be hard. If you downloaded a game and it played fine but you just didn't like it and wanted a refund they would have to treat that digital copy as used (to be fair). But as baddude said a used digital game doesn't actually make sense. I find the easiest way to avoid losing money to a game you dislike is to try and borrow it from a friend first. That's how I was able to weed out about 7-8 games that were on my to buy list.

DLC should never be refundable (again, unless it doesn't work) because I'm pretty sure it CLEARLY states "non-refundable" on the user agreement.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I don't think so. Any kind of digital refund for full price is just way too open to abuse. You could beat the game and return it while the week period is still good.
Most places that I know of won't take back opened software for anything but an even trade of the same software. Perhaps this is not the case anymore as I haven't bought goods in a long time.
I am not against having the ability to eventually trade in digitally purchased games for some kind of credit. However it won't be for the full price.

 

[distortedreality]

So, if you don't blame anyone else, you admit that buying a game that you don't like was your mistake? Why should anyone else have to take responsibility for your actions then?

This is the part I'm not sure of. What about being able to sell used copies means I'm passing responsibility?

If a person sells trades their old car into the dealership to put toward something newer, is this irresponsible?

If a person sells their home and puts the profit toward a newer home, is this irresponsible?

We're not talking about reselling - we're talking about getting refunds. I don't have any real problem at all with reselling, so I don't know why you're bringing it up. It's in no way related to what we're talking about.

Buyer beware, as they say. I'm glad I don't live in your world.

I hate to be the one to break it to you - but you do. The fact that we're having this discussion proves it.

It's an attempt to shake you awake since you really have been lulled into consumer apathy.

Ah well, seems like you really don't care that your rights as as a consumer are being trampled.

My rights aren't. As a consumer, I have a right to a refund if something is broken. That's they way it is, that's the way it should be. When it comes to digital media (note, that doesn't just include digital downloads), anything else is unworkable and impractical at this time.

Just like you to know that your attitude is what is wrong with the system for video games today and is paving the way for certain evil business practices to flower.

I disagree.

Me -> informs self about possible game purchase -> decides whether or not to buy based on informed decision.

Others -> trusts and takes marketing speak literally -> decides to buy without knowing anything about the game.

Which is worse for the industry and its' consumers?

captcha - bruce lee. Awesome.

 

[klasbo]

> Play and complete 5-hour game
> "Didn't like it"
> Get digital refund
> Repeat

I can't see how you'd make this work. Physical refund should be limited to when there is something physically broken and/or missing from the product, like a scratched disk or similar.
The "digital refund" you're suggesting is functionally identical to piracy. With good demos to show that the game is functional (and running smoothly on your hardware) refunds are superfluous.