While "Cogito Ergo Sum" I'd say maybe not it takes a self aware enity a while to think that one. However questioning existence on a metaphysical level involving ones self is most cetianly the signs of self-awareness. Asking why one is here or what one's purpose is are the signs of a rational self-aware being. The hard part is finding out where self-awareness starts as I'm sure it starts before one has the time to ask "why one is here".Realitycrash said:Alrighty, so we move the question one step further down the line: When does a Robot become self-aware?
Is it when he can say "Eureka! Cogito Ergo Sum!"?
Are you actually asking that question? Of course you have to prove things, that is how science works. Proof decides what is real and what isn't, when both sides have equal proof or no proof then there is no answer. You can't prove or dispove a soul, god, art, love, life. You can't even prove or disprove the colour Blue.Popadoo said:The idea of dark matter came about when we realized that what we could see in the universe was not equal to the estimated weight.manythings said:Your opinion on the concept of soul and its feasability isn't what can be classified as evidence. There are any number of things that could be called "imaginary" that people persist to believe and disbelieve, the myth of dark matter is a very good example of a scientific belief.
Flight was imaginary until it was real. The combustion engine, bacteria, even black swans were considered inventions of chronic liars. Your argument is why I hate both ends of any theological or existential debate, you all think what you choose to believe is proved by your belief.
Common sense is the root of superstition not a means of bypassing it.
And evidently flight was not imaginary, because we can do it now, can we not? You think we're as arrogant as the people who killed others because they said the Earth revolved around the Sun? No, we've changed.
And I finish with something else. Why do we need to prove something, when there is NO EVIDENCE in it's favor anyway? Answer me that.
Better question; Without Dark Matter, does Magus still have the strongest magic in Chrono Trigger?FalloutJack said:But without dark matter, HOW WILL I SUMMON ODIN?!Realitycrash said:Dark Matter is a myth now? Good to know. Now try to convince the world scientific paradigm to change.
manythings said:Popadoo said:Actually, Einstein conceived Dark Matter in order to fix a problem he had with his Theory of Special Relativity. Then he regretted it and called it the greatest blunder of his career.manythings said:Flight was regarded as a fever dream until there was a plan. The idea of dark matter is born of arrogance. According to the equations the universe hasn't enough mass to account for the gravity it would take to keep it from firing off into eternity so instead of trying to figure out what was wrong with their hypothesis they invented an unverifiable X-factor to show that they were right all along. It's non-sense, they might aswell have blamed goblins for it. Dark Matter is just a new version of Phlogiston.
Annnnnd around fifty years later, when they pulled the equations and realized that SOMETHING had to fill the damn void, Dark Matter actually made sense.
It isn't proven, but it's a damn better hypothesis than Phlogiston (though Phlogiston is awesome).
How about when one has the ability to distinguish one self from the rest of the world? That would mean that most animals are self-aware, but that they lack meta-cognition (the ability to question one-self ability to question, i.e "am I aware?").Dumori said:While "Cogito Ergo Sum" I'd say maybe not it takes a self aware enity a while to think that one. However questioning existence on a metaphysical level involving ones self is most cetianly the signs of self-awareness. Asking why one is here or what one's purpose is are the signs of a rational self-aware being. The hard part is finding out where self-awareness starts as I'm sure it starts before one has the time to ask "why one is here".Realitycrash said:Alrighty, so we move the question one step further down the line: When does a Robot become self-aware?
Is it when he can say "Eureka! Cogito Ergo Sum!"?
However creating a X-factor and testing it is ages old I'm sure Newton did it many a time. Sure right now we are on the fence about it but the point is its easy to test dark matter that make a totally new paridime then test that as our curent one might be wrong. I'd rather know it was wrong before setting on a years long task deliberately undoing possibly 100s of year worth of wrong data and theory. You might call it arrogant in all honestly is sounds like a good sound idea.manythings said:Are you actually asking that question? Of course you have to prove things, that is how science works. Proof decides what is real and what isn't, when both sides have equal proof or no proof then there is no answer. You can't prove or dispove a soul, god, art, love, life. You can't even prove or disprove the colour Blue.Popadoo said:The idea of dark matter came about when we realized that what we could see in the universe was not equal to the estimated weight.manythings said:Your opinion on the concept of soul and its feasability isn't what can be classified as evidence. There are any number of things that could be called "imaginary" that people persist to believe and disbelieve, the myth of dark matter is a very good example of a scientific belief.
Flight was imaginary until it was real. The combustion engine, bacteria, even black swans were considered inventions of chronic liars. Your argument is why I hate both ends of any theological or existential debate, you all think what you choose to believe is proved by your belief.
Common sense is the root of superstition not a means of bypassing it.
And evidently flight was not imaginary, because we can do it now, can we not? You think we're as arrogant as the people who killed others because they said the Earth revolved around the Sun? No, we've changed.
And I finish with something else. Why do we need to prove something, when there is NO EVIDENCE in it's favor anyway? Answer me that.
Flight was regarded as a fever dream until there was a plane. The idea of dark matter is born of arrogance. According to the equations the universe hasn't enough mass to account for the gravity it would take to keep it from firing off into eternity so instead of trying to figure out what was wrong with their hypothesis they invented an unverifiable X-factor to show that they were right all along. It's non-sense, they might aswell have blamed goblins for it. Dark Matter is just a new version of Phlogiston.
lol are you implying that scientists aren't trying to either disprove or find a better hypothesis than Dark Matter? Apparently you don't know how the scientific method works.manythings said:Flight was regarded as a fever dream until there was a plane. The idea of dark matter is born of arrogance. According to the equations the universe hasn't enough mass to account for the gravity it would take to keep it from firing off into eternity so instead of trying to figure out what was wrong with their hypothesis they invented an unverifiable X-factor to show that they were right all along. It's non-sense, they might aswell have blamed goblins for it. Dark Matter is just a new version of Phlogiston.
Define strength... is Flare stronger than Life2?Realitycrash said:Better question; Without Dark Matter, does Magus still have the strongest magic in Chrono Trigger?FalloutJack said:But without dark matter, HOW WILL I SUMMON ODIN?!Realitycrash said:Dark Matter is a myth now? Good to know. Now try to convince the world scientific paradigm to change.
Ofc, everyone knows healing-magic is gei compared to Flare.loc978 said:Define strength... is Flare stronger than Life2?Realitycrash said:Better question; Without Dark Matter, does Magus still have the strongest magic in Chrono Trigger?FalloutJack said:But without dark matter, HOW WILL I SUMMON ODIN?!Realitycrash said:Dark Matter is a myth now? Good to know. Now try to convince the world scientific paradigm to change.
You speak of the scientific method, but then you criticize physicists for "inventing" dark matter. The scientific process is all about providing a hypothesis to questions that have no definite answers (and even some that do), and testing those hypothese to see if the evidence supports them.manythings said:Are you actually asking that question? Of course you have to prove things, that is how science works. Proof decides what is real and what isn't, when both sides have equal proof or no proof then there is no answer. You can't prove or dispove a soul, god, art, love, life. You can't even prove or disprove the colour Blue.Popadoo said:The idea of dark matter came about when we realized that what we could see in the universe was not equal to the estimated weight.manythings said:Your opinion on the concept of soul and its feasability isn't what can be classified as evidence. There are any number of things that could be called "imaginary" that people persist to believe and disbelieve, the myth of dark matter is a very good example of a scientific belief.
Flight was imaginary until it was real. The combustion engine, bacteria, even black swans were considered inventions of chronic liars. Your argument is why I hate both ends of any theological or existential debate, you all think what you choose to believe is proved by your belief.
Common sense is the root of superstition not a means of bypassing it.
And evidently flight was not imaginary, because we can do it now, can we not? You think we're as arrogant as the people who killed others because they said the Earth revolved around the Sun? No, we've changed.
And I finish with something else. Why do we need to prove something, when there is NO EVIDENCE in it's favor anyway? Answer me that.
Flight was regarded as a fever dream until there was a plan. The idea of dark matter is born of arrogance. According to the equations the universe hasn't enough mass to account for the gravity it would take to keep it from firing off into eternity so instead of trying to figure out what was wrong with their hypothesis they invented an unverifiable X-factor to show that they were right all along. It's non-sense, they might aswell have blamed goblins for it. Dark Matter is just a new version of Phlogiston.
That exactly what I'm getting at while a being with a "soul" might be born imideately lacking such skills they are learnt (or at least the meant to express the self-awareness). This poses the question of dose the being suddenly gain self-awareness and all that entails or is there something a little deeper that we are missing.Realitycrash said:How about when one has the ability to distinguish one self from the rest of the world? That would mean that most animals are self-aware, but that they lack meta-cognition (the ability to question one-self ability to question, i.e "am I aware?").Dumori said:While "Cogito Ergo Sum" I'd say maybe not it takes a self aware enity a while to think that one. However questioning existence on a metaphysical level involving ones self is most cetianly the signs of self-awareness. Asking why one is here or what one's purpose is are the signs of a rational self-aware being. The hard part is finding out where self-awareness starts as I'm sure it starts before one has the time to ask "why one is here".Realitycrash said:Alrighty, so we move the question one step further down the line: When does a Robot become self-aware?
Is it when he can say "Eureka! Cogito Ergo Sum!"?