Poll: Do you believe in fate?

[Knight Captain Kerr]

No I don't believe in fate. I don't believe in determinism either. Our free will can be limited and circumstances and experience will impact our decision making but we still have some semblance of free will.

I don't believe there's any inherent meaning in the world either, just the subjective meaning you find for yourself in your own life, if there are gods or a god (I don't know if there is or not, agnostic) then what they believe would be subjective too. I don't think that's a bad thing though or something to be miserable about. I'm not one of those "free will sucks", "life is nothing but misery" or "there's no meaning so what's the point" kind of people. Whole thing is a bit liberating actually and it makes being nice to each other and enjoying yourself even more important. I could go more into it and talk about tangentially related topics but that'd be veering even further off topic so I'll stop.

 

[MasterOfHisOwnDomain]

I don't think we're free as we think we are. The decision making process in our minds appears to be something we are fully in control of, but to an extent that is illusionary.

If you haven't already you should read Kahneman's book Thinking, Fast and Slow [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow]. Throws doubt on the sensibility of our judgements.

EDIT: Link to Wikipedia.

 

[Vivi22]

Does anyone here believe in fate/destiny?

I am honestly surprised that people would, because if everything is predetermined, something has to make that decision (like a god or some kind of great force), and hearing about what happened to James Foley makes me wonder how anyone or anything would choose that fate for someone.

Feel free to weigh in.

No I don't believe in fate because that implies an entity or force that decides on the way things play out which is simply absurd to me.

But I do believe the Universe is most likely deterministic and everything, including the thoughts, feelings, actions, etc. which we have or take are governed by the same laws of physics which govern everything else in the universe. And no, believing that the Universe is pre-determined and likely has been since the moment of the Big Bang does not require the idea of some conscious entity deciding what shape that Universe took. That would easily be decided by whatever physical laws came into existence at the moment of the Universes actual creation (or before, or whenever those physical laws happened to take shape).

 

[deth2munkies]

Yes and no. I believe that if you were truly omniscient, you'd know exactly what would happen for all time. In that sense, everything's predestined from an omniscient point of view. However, none of us are omniscient*, and our ignorance acts as free will. We cannot make informed decisions as to what our actions will bring and have no way of knowing the ultimate outcomes, so in that sense we make free decisions out of ignorance and not out of "free will" as such.

*Even if you believe in God, he has a no spoilers policy.

EDIT: Oh, and for the record, you can be a determinist without being a materialist, though being a materialist necessitates determinism.

 

[giles]

No I don't believe in fate because that implies an entity or force that decides on the way things play out which is simply absurd to me.

But I do believe the Universe is most likely deterministic and everything, including the thoughts, feelings, actions, etc. which we have or take are governed by the same laws of physics which govern everything else in the universe. And no, believing that the Universe is pre-determined and likely has been since the moment of the Big Bang does not require the idea of some conscious entity deciding what shape that Universe took. That would easily be decided by whatever physical laws came into existence at the moment of the Universes actual creation (or before, or whenever those physical laws happened to take shape).

You can believe whatever you want, but keep in mind that just because you throw scientific terms like "laws of physics" and "Big Bang" in there doesn't automatically mean it's science. Indeed, much of modern physics would contradict your idea that the universe is "most likely deterministic and everything".


This goes for many of the posts here. As far as we currently understand it, the laws which govern the finest building blocks of the universe are statistical in nature. You can believe the opposite if you want, but remember you're disregarding a mountain of evidence for it.

 

[shteev]

I think it was 'The Invisibles' where I first read the idea of fate and free will being the same thing. If you're an Atheist, like me, and you don't believe in the soul, then really you're just a subset of the universe. There's no difference between the universe and you. With that point of view, wondering whether you make your decisions yourself or they are made for you by the universe becomes kind of moot.

 

[shteev]

As far as we currently understand it, the laws which govern the finest building blocks of the universe are statistical in nature. You can believe the opposite if you want, but remember you're disregarding a mountain of evidence for it.

I remember this being discussed on the BBC's 'Infinite Monkey Cage' recently. The fact that the laws of Quantum Physics are to our best knowledge probabilistic doesn't 'solve' the problem of free will. If the universe is not predetermined, but is inherently random, then the decisions we make are random too.

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Well, do we have free will or not? The way you answer this question I think largely depends on the extent to which you think we are free to make our own decisions. The universe itself is deterministic, we know where Mars will be in the night sky in a 1000 years time but we have no idea where human civilisation will be then.

I don't think we're free as we think we are. The decision making process in our minds appears to be something we are fully in control of, but to an extent that is illusionary. The way we think is heavily coloured by our environment, our up-bringing, our mood at the time, our own genes, inherent personality and other factors as well. This is not to say we don't have free-will at all, but the nature of our free-will is difficult to comprehend and our decision making process is a process determined by factors within and beyond our own control.

If we don't have have free-will, then technically yes fate is real. It was inevitable that humankind would reach the moon in 1969 as it is inevitable that the moon will appear in the night sky, all determined by the complex laws of physics. I however think we have some sort of free will, but we're not as free as we think we are.

This would mean that, instead of having one predetermined destiny, it is more likely that any given individual has a series of possible futures, the likelihood of those futures occurring being determined by hundreds of factors that are beyond our own control.

My personal theory on free will is that it's not absolute, but instead is directly proportional to the amount of self-awareness one has. The more aware one is of their own psychology - including the concept of reverse psychology - the more free will one has.

I'm not exactly a genius though, so I could definitely be wrong. However, it's the theory that currently makes the most sense in my eyes.

EDIT: As for the topic itself, nope. The fate is a lie. I don't really got much more to say on it other than that.

 

[Panda Pandemic]

The universe has an element of randomness to it particularly at the smallest level. Aside from that it could theoretically be pretty predictable.

The only things not determined by something else are those slightly random things on a small quantum level.

The world isnt purely deterministic but as far as it concerns our actions it may as well be. There is no free will, those things that can't even theoretically be perfectly predicted don't originate from our choices.

 

[Pyrian]

Surprised at the number of determinists here. Determinism is basically a faith-based position at this point. There's no evidence for it, considerable evidence against it, but it literally cannot ever be strictly disproven.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I personally don't believe in "fate". I have considered the idea that we don't really have free will though due to the universe being one giant, incredibly complex mathematical equation/chemical process that's just playing out (2+2 will always equal 4, put a person in the exact same situation multiple times and they will always choose the same choice). Whether or not this is true and I'm (along with everyone else) just playing my "scripted" part is ultimately irrelevant as I see it, due to lacking the mental capacity to properly analyze even a relative small section of this "universal equation" (like say, our planet). So I live my life like nothing is fated, but realizing there isn't really any "luck", it's all just effects of a variety of events I have no way of knowing. Of course, that's just me being an Absurdist.

 

[A_Parked_Car]

Nope. That would imply there is some other-worldly thing out there directing people's actions and whatnot which is absurd.

 

[SirDerpy]

I feel as if the fate I like to believe in isn't the same fate that you all are bashing for taking away free will and being disproven and such. My fate goes something like "the universe is a novel and everything has been written down as a part of it". The writer of this novel could go all "electron movement is fundamentally random and unpredictable" in his "universal laws of physics" notes. Doesn't stop him from being the writer of the book. And given that the writer is an especially good writer who always follows his own laws (I personally don't believe in God, this writer might well be the very fabric of the universe or some weird ass science fiction shit like that), discrepancies like going out of character and such don't happen.

In any case, it's not like it particularly affects what I do in real life. I react to situations according to my personality and such, so my actions are completely predictable. If I was one of those people who used fate as an excuse for everything (which I am not), that would simply be a part of my personality. I mean, if you're going to talk about free will, you're slaves to your own personality, memories, past already.

 

[Gorrath]

As far as we currently understand it, the laws which govern the finest building blocks of the universe are statistical in nature. You can believe the opposite if you want, but remember you're disregarding a mountain of evidence for it.

I remember this being discussed on the BBC's 'Infinite Monkey Cage' recently. The fact that the laws of Quantum Physics are to our best knowledge probabilistic doesn't 'solve' the problem of free will. If the universe is not predetermined, but is inherently random, then the decisions we make are random too.

I would caution that "probabilistic" and "random" are not the same thing. Our decisions are not random but would be determined by a series of factors. A probabilistic universe would be one in which, given a set of circumstances, you may decide A, or B or maybe C when presented with choices A-Z. In a "random" universe, any choice A-Z might be the one you choose. This too does not solve the free will question either on its own, but it does not imply that the descisions we make are random either.

 

[Gorrath]

I feel as if the fate I like to believe in isn't the same fate that you all are bashing for taking away free will and being disproven and such. My fate goes something like "the universe is a novel and everything has been written down as a part of it". The writer of this novel could go all "electron movement is fundamentally random and unpredictable" in his "universal laws of physics" notes. Doesn't stop him from being the writer of the book. And given that the writer is an especially good writer who always follows his own laws (I personally don't believe in God, this writer might well be the very fabric of the universe or some weird ass science fiction shit like that), discrepancies like going out of character and such don't happen.

In any case, it's not like it particularly affects what I do in real life. I react to situations according to my personality and such, so my actions are completely predictable. If I was one of those people who used fate as an excuse for everything (which I am not), that would simply be a part of my personality. I mean, if you're going to talk about free will, you're slaves to your own personality, memories, past already.

I think the issue with the writer analogy is that, once this being or universe or whatever has determined that the position of the electron is random, then even the writer can't determine where the electron is. Thus, even if we reach for a cause of the randomness, the randomness itself still exists as a fundamental part of the universe. In this way, the universe can't be an already written novel, because even the writer has no control over aspects of the story. We can't have randomness and determinism; the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

Yes, but not in the sense you mean.

Every time you make a decision it is governed by the circumstances in which it is made. Those circumstances include your own knowledge, experience and mental state as well as more obvious external factors.

Consider the last decision you made. It could be anything, from a life changing career choice to what you had for breakfast. Imagine if time were to be rewound so that you had to make the decision again under the exact same circumstances. That would include having no memory of the first time you made the decision or what followed, since you had no such memory the first time around. (If that sounds confusing or I'm not explaining it clearly, just think of it as Prince of Persia rules, but it's someone else using the magic dagger. not you.)

I believe that you would make the exact same decision a second time for the exact same reasons that you made it the first time.

If you apply that logic to every decision you have ever made and ever will make, then your life is essentially predetermined, although not readily predictable.

Ahh but would you though?

See your logic relies on the same choice being made as you have the same information. But is that really how it would go? Take the breakfast example, so say you have the choice of eggs or porridge and the first time you choose eggs, for no particular reason you just feel like them, but you also really wanted porridge too. So you decide to flip a coin to decide between the two options. Now if you later go back in time and run the scenario again would the result of the coin toss be the same? statistically the odds are 50/50 so it could land on the other side and you end up having porridge instead of eggs.

You are essentially arguing that we live in a deterministic universe. If we know the equations and initial state then we can run the equations and calculate the outcome of any event. Your 'fate' is determined by the operation of equation. But that's not how the universe works. Chaos theory states that that complex and unpredictable interactions arise from simple rules. So according to the physics even if the initial conditions are the same then there is no guarantee that end the results will be the same.

But that's all just theory and speculation, in order for there to be a fate there has to be time...and what exactly is time anyway?

 

[Jandau]

I believe in a degree of predetermination, though not as a result of divine planning or anything like that, but rather the force exerted upon an individual by the assorted social and biological factors. Everything, from your genetic makeup to the neighborhood you grow up in pushes you in a certain direction. All these factors, when taken together form what we call fate, i.e. a more or less predetermined path your life will take.

I also believe in free will. But there's a catch - free will takes effort. An individual can go against his or her nature, conditioning, upbringing, the society in general, etc., but it requires quite a bit of effort. As a result, people don't bother exercising free will at all times as it would be exhausting and perhaps even pointless. But they do exercise it sometimes. They do make decisions that require effort on their part to break patterns of behavior, social cycles, to try and change themselves or the world around them.

Now, there's plenty of room for discussion regarding the consequences of free will, the benefits and drawbacks of letting the predetermined fate (as described in the first paragraph) take you along, etc. But in the end, I believe in both a deterministic universe and free will.

 

[giles]

I remember this being discussed on the BBC's 'Infinite Monkey Cage' recently. The fact that the laws of Quantum Physics are to our best knowledge probabilistic doesn't 'solve' the problem of free will. If the universe is not predetermined, but is inherently random, then the decisions we make are random too.

What, pray tell, is the "problem of free will"? Sounds like philosophical nonsense. Anyway your idea is a false dichotomy, it's not either "inherently random" or "predetermined". That's a child's understanding of statistics.
Statistics is not the same as randomness. Take a rock. It, like everything else, is comprised of elementary particles and vacuum between them. By their very nature, their exact trajectories are unknowable. Indeed, it is even impossible to say if these particles stay the same or change into something different while we're not looking. Even the vacuum surrounding them is constantly fluctuating.
Yet, if you pick up a rock and drop it (given no other circumstances) you will have it fall towards the earth with a probability that is indistinguishable from 1. That is because each particle is more likely to move down than up, and given their mutual attraction, that likelyhood increases as more particles move down.
Given a large enough number of particles, statistical properties can become certainties.

 

[Zhukov]

Yes, but not in the sense you mean.

Every time you make a decision it is governed by the circumstances in which it is made. Those circumstances include your own knowledge, experience and mental state as well as more obvious external factors.

Consider the last decision you made. It could be anything, from a life changing career choice to what you had for breakfast. Imagine if time were to be rewound so that you had to make the decision again under the exact same circumstances. That would include having no memory of the first time you made the decision or what followed, since you had no such memory the first time around. (If that sounds confusing or I'm not explaining it clearly, just think of it as Prince of Persia rules, but it's someone else using the magic dagger. not you.)

I believe that you would make the exact same decision a second time for the exact same reasons that you made it the first time.

If you apply that logic to every decision you have ever made and ever will make, then your life is essentially predetermined, although not readily predictable.

Ahh but would you though?

See your logic relies on the same choice being made as you have the same information. But is that really how it would go? Take the breakfast example, so say you have the choice of eggs or porridge and the first time you choose eggs, for no particular reason you just feel like them, but you also really wanted porridge too. So you decide to flip a coin to decide between the two options. Now if you later go back in time and run the scenario again would the result of the coin toss be the same? statistically the odds are 50/50 so it could land on the other side and you end up having porridge instead of eggs.

You are essentially arguing that we live in a deterministic universe. If we know the equations and initial state then we can run the equations and calculate the outcome of any event. Your 'fate' is determined by the operation of equation. But that's not how the universe works. Chaos theory states that that complex and unpredictable interactions arise from simple rules. So according to the physics even if the initial conditions are the same then there is no guarantee that end the results will be the same.

But that's all just theory and speculation, in order for there to be a fate there has to be time...and what exactly is time anyway?

I will be the first to admit that my knowledge of physics and how the universe works does not go beyond a layman's understanding.

However, my admittedly limited knowledge tells me that yes, the coin would flip would always be the same since all the factors governing its result are the same. Same thumb, same strength, same degree of enthusiasm on the part of the coin-flipper, same coin, same weight and dimensions, same material composition right down to the sub-atomic level, same location and atmosphere etc etc.

I'm pretty sure chaos theory does not apply to an exact, perfect and total repeat of conditions. While in the real world it is impractical if not impossible to account for all those complex and unpredictable interactions, in my scenario all those interaction would be perfectly and exactly replicated and occur just as the did the first time around.

Is there some kind of "randomness factor" at play when it comes to the laws of physics, possibly involving the word "quantum"? I do not know. If there is then I do not know of it and would no odubt struggle to understand it if a more knowledgable person attempted to explain it to me.