Poll: Do you find strip clubs misogynistic?
- Thread starter Inglorious891
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And if you let society dictate this sort of stuff then you kinda deserve this. Besides, men are no less sexually repressed than women. Actually the joke is, it is probably because for women, it's literally attraction ona different level. It's not the same. WHat women are drawn to in men is not the same as what men are drawn to in women. WHile men may be drawn to big boobs I don't see many women being drawn to big baskets.mecegirl said:
I'm pretty sure men/women can hold phobic or bigoted views towards women/men, even if they find them attractive and are willing spend dosh to ogle at them.CaitSeith said:
Knowing how shitty some people were to me, both customers and management, when I worked in retail I'm just thankful there wasn't any booze flowing.erttheking said:
However, without actually talking to a stripper I can't make this judgement. I imagine it depends on the place and the person. Some places are probably terrible and treat their dancers like meat on display, others are probably amazing and treat their dancers like super stars or royalty. I have no doubt that being an erotic dancer comes with a variety of bad apples giving you grief, but same thing can be said about most careers/jobs... it's not exclusive to that scene (though it might foster a particular variety of bad apples).
I agree with Zhukov and Guppy. For one, ew... drinking among a crowd of mutually aroused men just seems gross to me. Not how I would like to spend an evening. Also, without knowing things I can't possibly know without some thorough and possibly illegal information gathering, I wouldn't feel comfortable. How do I know they genuinely want to be there and like the attention, and aren't (as you say) counting the hours left while looking at me like as if I'm a pig ogling the feed bag.
And to weigh in on Male strip clubs, I've heard equals amount of issues from those places (and a similar amount of praise). This isn't really a misogynistic issue (at least not exclusively) as male dancers can be given just as much grief from female (and male) patrons (and possibly less attention when they sound off about it). It has more to do with objectifying people in general, which is something that isn't split evenly down the gender/sex divides.
Ultimately, I don't have an issue with the idea. But I don't see myself ever going to one. I'd respect the dancers and their decisions regardless.
Nope, it doesn't involve hatred for women. In fact I'd be more inclined to say it fosters an appreciation of the female form in some ways, you aren't allowed to touch or you get das boot, it is a viewing experience. You don't treat an object with respect, there is a respect for the strippers at the club even if it is often faint, so no they aren't being objectified or being promoted as something to hate.
Which is just called being an asshole, not misogyny.Ragsnstitches said:
OP should have been worded differently. If the question is if strip clubs are demeaning, objectifying women, or other various potentially negative things, there's a discussion to be had.
But hateful towards women? Not so much. Maybe some people, some of the time, but certainly not as some underlying truth to the nature of strip clubs.
Do you think linguistic drift thanks to common use is beginning to transform the term misogyny to include areas of bigotry and stereotyping towards women? It seems to be so commonly misappropriated for that use as to almost now include the meaning as happens with various other terms.Jadak said:
One misogyny has almost completely lost it's meaning to me just like sexism because a bunch of whiny women pushed me to that point, but anyway on topic, no strip clubs are not inherently "sexist", the women working there are supposed to be working by choice, however I will say that there are certainly cases where they could be considered "sexist" so is it inherently sexist? No, can they be sexist? yes, I don't know alot about them since I've never seen the point of going to one, if I want to watch sexy women that I can't have sex with I'll go to the internet where I can get it for free
Well, would you even want to hang out with anyone who would feel insulted because you stepped into a strip club?
I don't think there's anything wrong with sex entertainment and/or sex work. Whether that's strip clubs, porn or even prostitution. Basically, for me, it comes down to three factors:Inglorious891 said:
> Are the employees doing this voluntarily?
> Are they getting a fair wage?
> Are there standardized safeguards in place to ensure employee safety?
If all of those conditions are met (and I realize that some strip clubs, especially the lower-tier ones, do not regularly fulfill all of these), then it's fine in my book. It's human nature to be physically attracted to other humans, and as long as everyone is being safe and being compensated for their time, I don't see any issue with it.
Whether or not you are personally comfortable with it though, that's down to you. I support strip clubs, and even the idea of legalized prostitution, but I'd probably never really be comfortable using either of those services myself. Just not really my kind of thing.
I'm a straight woman who's been to a few strip clubs (with women dancers, though I have caught a male dance show in Vegas). Some with my boyfriend, some with a mixed group of people I worked with (it had a lunch buffet), and again to the same place with the buffet with just a couple of women I worked with, because by then we'd all been there a few times and found it to be an amusing place to go have a drink.
It was a lot less weird - and frankly a lot less exciting - than I thought it would be (most of these places are just bars that also have naked women dancing), but that comes with some caveats. Mostly that I was always with a group I felt comfortable with, which makes a big difference. Also, while a lot of the women who get into this come from really f'd up situations and are taken advantage of, there are as many or more that are just normal people doing a job that some of them enjoy as much as anyone can enjoy their job. Not because they love the guys they dance for (they don't, even if they're good at pretending), but because if you're at a vaguely legit club with management and security that looks out for you, you can make VERY good money. The cliche about putting yourself through law school is kind of a joke, but there are cases where it and similar things are true. You can make a lot more cash doing it than you can waiting tables or bar tending, if you need something part-time to fit around weird hours and taking your clothes off doesn't bother you.
There's nothing misogynistic in and of itself about a strip club. Some of the men who run those places ARE the worst kind of creeps, however, and it's not like you can tell good ones from bad just by looking at the outside of a place. Like any bar, leave if you don't feel comfortable. In the end, I guess they bother me much less than restaurants like Hooters do. There's no pretense or attempt to go 'tee-hee people don't come here to look at boobs.' Sure they do, and that's OK, just treat the dancers with respect and remember they're entertainers, not your imaginary girlfriend. It's all about respect, and misogyny is ultimately about a lack of respect far more than it is about what someone's wearing.
It was a lot less weird - and frankly a lot less exciting - than I thought it would be (most of these places are just bars that also have naked women dancing), but that comes with some caveats. Mostly that I was always with a group I felt comfortable with, which makes a big difference. Also, while a lot of the women who get into this come from really f'd up situations and are taken advantage of, there are as many or more that are just normal people doing a job that some of them enjoy as much as anyone can enjoy their job. Not because they love the guys they dance for (they don't, even if they're good at pretending), but because if you're at a vaguely legit club with management and security that looks out for you, you can make VERY good money. The cliche about putting yourself through law school is kind of a joke, but there are cases where it and similar things are true. You can make a lot more cash doing it than you can waiting tables or bar tending, if you need something part-time to fit around weird hours and taking your clothes off doesn't bother you.
There's nothing misogynistic in and of itself about a strip club. Some of the men who run those places ARE the worst kind of creeps, however, and it's not like you can tell good ones from bad just by looking at the outside of a place. Like any bar, leave if you don't feel comfortable. In the end, I guess they bother me much less than restaurants like Hooters do. There's no pretense or attempt to go 'tee-hee people don't come here to look at boobs.' Sure they do, and that's OK, just treat the dancers with respect and remember they're entertainers, not your imaginary girlfriend. It's all about respect, and misogyny is ultimately about a lack of respect far more than it is about what someone's wearing.
I was taken to a strip club at the end of the leaving do my colleagues threw for me before I went out to work in Saudi Arabia, and it was an absolutely awesome night out. Almost half of my colleagues were women, and they came to the strip club too - it was an experience that most of them hadn't had before, and going along on a work leaving do gave them an excuse to satisfy their curiosity about it. The mixed nature of our group meant that bouncers liked us, the dancers liked us and the barstaff liked us - so they bent over backwards to give us a good night - in the case of the dancers, I mean that literally!
I also was asked a few years ago to become part owner of a strip-club in Blackpool which is mostly a male strip club for hen parties. They also hire female strippers but they're about 80% male stripper to 20% female. It was a business that seemed like a license to print money, but groups of women in Blackpool on Hen nights can be pretty damn scary so I turned the offer down! (I also didn't have enough money, but that's a more boring reason!)
So from my experiences, I have to say I really don't understand where this "OMG it's mysogynistic/horribly seedy" thing comes from. Misoggybiscuit is as has been said before, a pretty meaningless word these days, and as for being seedy - you're obviously not going to the right strip clubs then!
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I also was asked a few years ago to become part owner of a strip-club in Blackpool which is mostly a male strip club for hen parties. They also hire female strippers but they're about 80% male stripper to 20% female. It was a business that seemed like a license to print money, but groups of women in Blackpool on Hen nights can be pretty damn scary so I turned the offer down! (I also didn't have enough money, but that's a more boring reason!)
So from my experiences, I have to say I really don't understand where this "OMG it's mysogynistic/horribly seedy" thing comes from. Misoggybiscuit is as has been said before, a pretty meaningless word these days, and as for being seedy - you're obviously not going to the right strip clubs then!
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Yeah it kind of is but I don't really think it's that harmful. It's not the reason I would have a problem going to one though. I was in one once and it's just kind of boring. Thanks to the internet, seeing some boobs isn't that exciting anymore and (assuming it's legal), it's all just a big cocktease. It's also just kind of generally uncomfortable hanging out with a bunch of guys and staring at naked women. Honestly, I'd probably be less uncomfortable in a bordello because at least you get to do something there.
Heh, in fact there are two factors in here:Yopaz said:
1) Most miners get into miner job basically the same way strippers get into theirs - 'because it came down to it somehow'.
2) Miners are mostly men, because they usually have larger muscle and, thanks to their penises, are considered more expendable, and there is enough men who are ready to go undergound to risk their lives in order to _________ (your explanation here). Women have boobs, and men usually love looking at boobs, and there is enough women who are ready to get paid for showing boobs to those men because _____________________ (your explanation here). Strippers are treated by society as someone of lower sort because people think sex is sacred. Football pros, singers, dancers, poets, painters - they all are the same as strippers. They do not produce any proper valuable things, unlike miners, but they are much better paid, because people like them more, and their activities are much more visible and obvious, and entertaining. Strippers do the same thing, but because sex is involved, it's considered dirty, and, thus, often shunned, associated with crime, etc. But whether those accusations are true or not, stripper profession is absolutely and entirely equal to miner profession, 'cause both professions have reasons to be more represented by one sex, and less - by another.
What the hell is this "no touching" policy? Is that a big city thing or something? I live in the middle-of-nowhere, asscrack of Iowa (think about that), but the strippers in the club near me are all 20-somethings who'll rub her ass in a customer's face simply because he/she sat by the stage. Private dances involve slapping asses like bongos, motorboating tits, and all sorts of tactile wonderment. Benefits of living outside city limits near a university, I guess?
Also, I'm surprised how many girls treat the strip club like a regular Friday night. Not saying women can't participate in sexism-toward-women, but pretty decent gender parity stops the whole affair from dipping entirely into sweaty, pathetic, testosterone-addled skeeviness territory.
Honestly, strip clubs are probably sexist in a general sense, but unless you see Eastern European bouncers herding the dancers into a van, I don't think the girls anymore objectified than your average person living check-to-check.
Also, I'm surprised how many girls treat the strip club like a regular Friday night. Not saying women can't participate in sexism-toward-women, but pretty decent gender parity stops the whole affair from dipping entirely into sweaty, pathetic, testosterone-addled skeeviness territory.
Honestly, strip clubs are probably sexist in a general sense, but unless you see Eastern European bouncers herding the dancers into a van, I don't think the girls anymore objectified than your average person living check-to-check.
I have known a few strippers as friends and romantic interests. If anything the whole affair seems to come off as pretty misandrist from the way the women seemed to discuss their clients. Now granted, I have never been inside a strip club itself so my point of view comes strictly from the dancers themselves. They just viewed the men there as pathetic atm's. I'm a bit of a romantic myself, so the mercenary way these women tended to view sexuality pretty much doomed any attempts at relationships. Since then I have instituted a no sex worker rule for myself when it comes to relationships. But I still have friends who work in that industry and have managed to make it work for them.
Sure. Why is it even remotely connected to misandry?Rastrelly said:
2) Miners are mostly men, because they usually have larger muscle[/quote]
Sure, that's a great reason why it works like this. Why is it even remotely connected to misandry? You have given me a perfectly good reason why misandry isn't remotely related to the hiring of miners an I agree. Can you give me a similarly good reson for why it should be considered misandrist in the same bane as strip clubs are considered misogynist?
I went into the reasons why some may consider strip clubs misogynistic. You haven't given a single reason why mining is misandrist. Why don't you just admit you made a silly statement for comedy that you didn't mean to be taken seriously, because you have now convinced me that there is no inherent sexism in mining.
A form of humour where your tone actually matters when it comes to conveying whether or not you're being sarcastic? No, I have never heard of it (if I had said that out loud to you, you would catch that I was being sarcastic). I don't know where you were being "sarcastic" the fact you defended your original post in your second post makes me think it was in the second post. Otherwise you would have just stated so in your second post, right?Rastrelly said:
It's clear to me that you realize that you don't really have an answer at this point.
Edit: Also going "Durrrrrrrr, don't you understand sarcasm?" in a text conversation. You do strike me as a true genius (again, sarcasm).