I don't. I made a pro-piracy thread here, but it got taken down. Only anti-piracy is allowed which is a bit of a shame.
OT: I hate used games only because someone else has owned them before me and I don't know how well they took care of the disc. Getting something with a bunch of scratches on it pisses me off to no end. I only buy new because I actually like to care of my stuff and don't want to risk buying used and having a fucked up disc even if it runs fine. I like my stuff clean.
I assume you're asking our opinion on the used game market from a moral standpoint, since the laws on this are unquestionably clear.
Morally, It depends entirely on whether or not the game is still in production. If not then any sale of a new copy isn't benefiting the developers anyway, so I'm fine with it.
If it is, however, then buying used is douchie and stupid.
I buy mostly used games, myself. I've often thought about the impact not buying new is having on the industry... I realize I vote with my wallet about the games I want to be playing, and not buying new is akin to not voting at all. I'm OK with that, though, becuase I came to realize two things:
Firstly, I do buy the games I really care about new. Preordered, more often than not. The games I'm getting used, though? Didn't thik about getting them new. In the case of some, didn't even register the game on my radar until it hit the used market. I don't think it's fair to rail against me for buying a $4 used copy of Rock Band 1, years after it released. I wouldn't have bought it new- I was playing Guitar Hero. I barely realized Rock Band existed until well after RB2 started taking the market.
Secondly- in a way, by buying used, I increase the value of a new game. Think of it this way: would you rather spend $60 on something that will be worthless to anyone else... or would you rather spend $60 on something you can get $30 for when you're done with it? The fact that people are aware of a used market, means they'll be more willing to spend more upfront knowing they can recoup some of that money when they have no further use of the product. It's the same reason a $20 download game is expensive, but the same game on a disc isn't- you can sell the disc.
Personally, I rather like the idea of somehow getting the used game dealers to give a little back to the developers- but I don't imagine such a system could ever be implemented. Putting aside how hard Gamestop and the like would fight against it, I imagine most of the used game market would migrate to untrackable mom & pop operations and negate the value of such a move.
Exactly. The biggest difference between games and other industries is that while it's true you don't have people getting upset about the effect on that given industry, unlike games they don't have as many people acting like it's a moral crusade to buy games used to somehow "fight the power".
You know, some of those people might actually have a good reason for buying a particular companies games used that doesn't equate to "fight the power." For example, for quite a while I didn't approve of EA's business practices, so I decided I wouldn't give them my money and would rather do something else likeread below)
I prefer that my money, rather than going to GameStop or an individual, goes to the developer so that they can continue to put out games I like.
Support a retailer that has been reliably providing a venue to buy games in my rather rural area. The fact of the matter is, being a games retailer is not easy. They make very little money on each game sold, almost to the point of it not being profitable. However, buying used games and selling those cheaper, where they get all the profit, helps keep smaller retailers in business. Instead of supporting groups with shaky business practices, I go to the ones that do honest work.
I'm not suggesting you should buy from GameStop(you really probably shouldn't) but places in my area like Vintage Stock could actually use the money to stay in business and keep more extensive and open libraries than GameStop does(and the sale back prices are actually reasonable).
Used games sales definitely have an effect on the industry and that effect is for the most part, positive.
Why? It's, as many have stated on other forums, "Legal Piracy". You like a developer? Buy their game new. Work as hard as you can to get the cash to buy it new. That's the only way your fav dev will see:
1. What their consumers enjoy
2. What they can do to get consumers interested
3. What they are/aren't doing right
I buy the games (especially their Shin Megami Tensei and grittier titles) new every time. Outside of Japan, their games are really marketed on e-mails to their fanbase, internet trailers, and word-of-mouth. However, despite having a very short marketing arm, you probably already know about a number of their titles, most recently: Persona 4 and Catherine
Things they do to make sure their fans or newcomers buy used isn't some EA stunt that makes them look stupid and childish. They e-mail fans with personal touches, playfully tease the fanbase (look up Catherine not getting localization/Catherine actually coming this summer), and even more importantly, they often add bonus items to pre-order buyers. It can be anything from an Artbook and OST to a plushy of a cute character in the game.
This is how you get people interested. Not by marketing an M rated game to young teens or saying gamers are grown adults who actually care about what their mom thinks of a game.
[see Open Letter to EA from the show "Extra Credits" on this website]
If you don't like the publisher, but you like the dev, you still need to buy it new because you want to support the folks who made it. So, that being said, why are Used Games good (for consumers)?
_We can now vote on what we do/do not like, and the idea of "voting with your dollars" has never been more widespread and understood. Yes, buying a used game is pretty much legal piracy in many regards. However, by reading up on the game and it's production, on the treatment of the developers and what the publisher and devs are doing to listen to the fans (mostly, not all things the fans say are good) and how much the creators actually care about the game, you can choose whether to support a right-minded company or drop a tyrant...all thanks to Used Games.
[look up the Red Dead Redemption Developer treatment controversy]
[look up EA and Bioware's latest PR killing exploits and ideas on what an RPG actually is ("JRPGs are not RPGs" and "Call of Duty is an RPG" -look that up under Bioware)]
Every game bought used is a wound in even the biggest company's side. Remember that. If you're buying used, make sure you want to make a statement to the publisher and developer. Don't buy used from companies doing the right thing. Buy them used from companies hurting the industry, the consumers, and ultimately themselves.
Use Games are only good if consumers realize the impact buying even one used game can do.
Hold on just a second there. Do you know how ridiculous that statement is? Seriously, this is the type of arrogance that is currently plaguing the game industry. There is not a single other maker and seller of goods that is so self important as to believe that they should see profits from the used market. And there are certainly none that walk around bemoaning exactly how much they are being hurt by used products.
There are used book stores, used car lots, used furniture stores, used clothing stores, used movie and music stores etc and NONE of the profits from those sales see the original manufacturers. What is so damn special about video games that they should be the only single industry to enjoy such a benefit?
Used goods have been around for as long as people have been buying and selling goods. There is simply no reason why the gaming industry deserves any special protection for the used market other than they are currently driven by an amazing excess of greed and are good at spinning things to where they are always seen as the victim.
As I said previously the gaming industry in it's current form needs to be brought down a few pegs. The industry as it is today is driven soley by greed as is evident when you look and see that the price keeps going up while the amount of content keeps going down. The only thing hurting the gaming industry is the gaming industry and the sooner it crashes and burns the sooner it can be rebuilt into something much much better.
The car argument annoys me. If you buy a new car you will get that car in perfect condition. If you buy a used car then depending on how old it is it will be more likely to break down and it will probably be outdated compared to newer cars. In other words it doesn't work as well because its second hand. This is the same for phones, clothes and almost anything you can buy.
Games are NOT the same. The actual disk costs very little to make, what we pay for is the digital content stored on the disk which doesn't age. If you buy a used game it will work the same as it did on the day it was made. (unless its scratched to hell but then it shouldn't have been resold in the first place). My Game Boy games still work as intended to this day. Cars from 1993 dont.
Then I trust that you have only even owned/driven new cars. Furthermore, I trust that when the time comes to buy your own home you will have it build from the ground up rather than buying one another family has already lived in. Finally I trust you never sell any of your own property that is still able to be purchased new on craigslist or ebay or that if you do you send an appropriate cut back to the original manufacturer . . . . .
Games are NO different that any other manufactured good. They deserve no special treatment when it comes to used sales. To say otherwise is just crazy
Hate is a strong word.
Piracy exists for a reason & it isn't the end of all things good.
Used games exist for a reason & it isn't the end of all things good.
Each has its own type of users/consumers.
Each user/consumer has his own wallet.
Every wallet has different amounts of cash/moola/dinero in it.
Mostly economic stratification leads to things like piracy or used games being sold & resold & each have their own communities... so you won't find answers by asking: "Do you hate the used game market?"... you will only get opinions & and opinions are like ass... everybody's got an ass => everybody's got an opinion.
I was referring to a singleplayer cinematic game, so in that case I was assuming a game cannot, or has no point in being consumed over and over.
As for maintenance, there ARE maintenance costs. The game's servers must be up at all times, especially if there is some kind of DRM. Multiplayer must work, and it must undergo maintenance if you need to scale it up. You must provide timely updates in the event of bugs. You have to provide support in case of someone who can't run the game.
I would like you to read over that again and then explain to me why a singleplayer cinematic game requires servers for multiplayer and DRM. If you are referring to a singleplayer game the maintenance costs don't apply, but if you're not referring to singleplayer games your initial example is still flawed.
As far as the DRM goes, you can't claim that maintaining those servers is going to cost the company money out of the initial price because it is sold to you after the initial purchase if you're interested. As for the updates, its not unusual for companies to have to pay, out of their pocket, to fix flaws in their products. In the car example this would be in the form of a recall. The car example still holds as a good model for used sales.
OT: If you couldn't tell I have no issues with used games and partake of them myself. I do enjoy giving back to the developer, but generally thats in the form of DRM for myself or in the case of an especially good title I will often purchase sequels or a new copy when given the opportunity.
I buy used all the time. As a consumer, it's just plain better for me. It allows me to grab some games that I might have missed out the starting gate, as well as having access to good games despite a lower spending budget.
Personally, I believe if gaming companies are concerned about losing revenue on used game sales, they should band together and try to get a system of royalties introduced. By that I mean passing some law or contract that requires they be given a portion of the profits from used game sales. I'm sure it isn't something that could be done overnight, but I'm just saying that in my opinion, this would be the logical option. If a company like Gamestop wants to sell used games, then they have to return a small percentage of the used game sales back to the companies that the games originated from. It may not equal the amount they would get if everyone were forced to buy new, but it's better than nothing.
I get that buying new helps the gaming companies keep in business, but I seriously doubt that if the majority of a franchise's consumers bought their copies new, the prices of games would go down. That's where I have issue with the idea that used game stores shouldn't be allowed to do business. I don't blindly agree that every new game is worth the $50-70 pricetag that they come out as on their first day, so I choose to exercise some patience and take advantage of cheaper options.
Exactly. The biggest difference between games and other industries is that while it's true you don't have people getting upset about the effect on that given industry, unlike games they don't have as many people acting like it's a moral crusade to buy games used to somehow "fight the power".
You know, some of those people might actually have a good reason for buying a particular companies games used that doesn't equate to "fight the power." For example, for quite a while I didn't approve of EA's business practices, so I decided I wouldn't give them my money and would rather do something else likeread below)
Oh absolutely. I wasn't trying to say that that's how everyone that buys used feels. But I've seen a number of posts (in other threads at the very least) saying "I only buy used because the devs already got their money (which they haven't) and all publishers are big, bad, evil corporations."
Games cost money to make. Buying new ensures that developers (and, yes, publishers) have the money to put out the games we want to see made.
Do I think buying used makes you a pirate and you're a bad, awful person? Of course not.
There are used book stores, used car lots, used furniture stores, used clothing stores, used movie and music stores etc and NONE of the profits from those sales see the original manufacturers. What is so damn special about video games that they should be the only single industry to enjoy such a benefit?
Used goods have been around for as long as people have been buying and selling goods. There is simply no reason why the gaming industry deserves any special protection for the used market other than they are currently driven by an amazing excess of greed and are good at spinning things to where they are always seen as the victim.
As I said previously the gaming industry in it's current form needs to be brought down a few pegs. The industry as it is today is driven soley by greed as is evident when you look and see that the price keeps going up while the amount of content keeps going down. The only thing hurting the gaming industry is the gaming industry and the sooner it crashes and burns the sooner it can be rebuilt into something much much better.
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this topic. I never said my idea of the Used Game market couldn't be applied to other things like movies and music or even clothing. Cars are harder to talk about in such a way since, well...they cost a hell of a lot more than a DVD or CD.
_I'm not putting the gaming market on a pedistal. I speak primarily about the gaming market since firstly this is a thread all about Used Games, and secondly because unlike others I stick to what I know, and I know more about the gaming industry (or at least this topic of said industry).
What you closed with is true, and is very close to what I was talking about. Companies mucking about don't deserve to have support, thus instead of doing something illegal, you can buy the game you want used so you don't support them. It is the industry's own fault if sales go down. Prices are getting higher while content is getting shrunk down to purchasable DLC. So, that being said, how are you going to change it? How are we, as gamers, going to help change this?
It sounds like activism because it essentially is. Buying used with a cause is a good thing and is meaningful so long as we make our meaning known. You don't like that a 6-7 dollar DLC gave you barely an hour's worth of game-time? You don't like that the Epilogue to a game was separated from the original source where it should've been and put up for DLC? Neither do I! And neither do lots of gamers.
I'm not painting all developers and publishers as victims. You like Kanye's music but hate Kanye? Buy it used. You like Inception but hate...whoever helped produce that movie? Buy it used. You like Dead Space 2 but hate EA's BS? Buy it used.
You like a piece of clothing but hate that children slaved over it in a 3rd World Country? Buy it used...or better yet buy a better looking piece of clothing from a company that doesn't partake in those activities.
-Shouldn't companies doing good get support? Buying used from them is like saying good business practices and PR is equivalent to the crap the tyrants commit.
I hope that helps clear up the misunderstanding, mate. Believe me, the game industry shouldn't get special treatment, which is why we as consumers should vote with our dollars and voice our opinions against companies that screw us out of our money or think they can shell out half-finished games and leave important parts of the story for purchasable DLC. I don't believe leaving the industry to rot isn't the way to change things. I believe smacking the greedy barking dogs on the nose with a rolled up news paper is.
P.S. This is only if you really have to buy said game from said crappy dev/pub. If you don't, then just don't waste your money.
I buy second hand unless there is an amazing game I desperatly want day one, same thing with paying less to stream movies on streaming subscription sites and renting DVDs. Why should I pay the full whack sum for something that interests me only a little and satisfies me even less. You wouldn't go to a restaurant and pay the full price for a meal that is mediocre, unless you were especially generous. We are all trying to live out here and pay cuts and redundancies don't help matters. I'm all for helping developers which is why if I love the game to bits I'll pay full brand new price for it, other than that, renting and used bin will have to do.
It especially annoys me that developers think that multiplayer is the best way to hide the fact that thier single player experiences were crap, storytelling was crap and the variety of things to do outside of multiplayer is lacking. Games like Homefront only help to further prove this point. What happened to the days when a single player campaign was so good that you felt empty after completing it, like Halo 1, Timesplitters, Diablo 2, Populous, Abe's Oddysee, Dino Crisis and Resident Evil, Final Fantasy 7, 8 & 9.
Now everything is to make a quick buck, less thought process is put in, good scripts are far and few and everything requires an internet connection. I don't want to be antisocial, I want all my mates in the same room playing co-op, not in different places, its more fun when we are all together, beer, laughter and a game of Halo co-op or other such games.
I'm all for used gaming, besides, I can afford to get 8+ good games for the £70 price tag I saw on Killzone 3 ¬_¬ Thats bull.
If I buy anything used it's from the flea market, kijiji or a friend. Both parties get a much better deal that way and I've never gotten burned with an unusable game. Plus it's the only way to get a lot of games which are nearly impossible to find in local stores, like Chrono Trigger for the DS.
I like the used game market, mainly because it's a good way for a console gamer to get games legally and cheaply. It also lets me trade in game I've already completed/didn't like too much and get some money off a game I really want.
I can understand why some dislike it, for the sheer fact that it 'takes money away from the industry' but frankly, how many of the people buying used would buy the game at full price? No, they would probably wait until the price has reduced or wouldn't buy it at all.
I have no issue with used game market, you should be able to sell things you own. It dose hurt the industry. so does every used _ market. I also don?t have a problem with putting one use codes to unlock extra content (tho it has to be extra not important content, like you won?t understand the plot or get the ending without it and I think DLC are being overused at the moment) in games so if you buy the game used you have to pay a small amount for the extra content if you want it.
This is my personal opinion:
Yes, buying a used game is legal and there's nothing anyone can do to stop you from buying a used game. I don't buy used games for two reasons:
1. When you buy a used game, no money goes to the developer. Let's use fictional developer A Games as an example. Say they made the best game since Half Life 2 (we'll call this game Full Life). If I bought Full Life, I would want A Games to get the money I spent on their game so they have the money to make more games like it. When you buy used, the developer gets nothing. Zip. Nada. It's pure profit for Gamestop. The reason I only apply this to games and not to, say, cars or houses, is because game developers operate on a razer thin profit margin. They need every dollar they can get to make the game they made pay for itself.
2. I'm a PC gamer, and there's no such thing as "used" computer software due to DRM.
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