Poll: Does free-will exist?
- Thread starter Sewblon
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Well, we all have a predetermined mindset. Some kind of restriction that presents what we can do and what we simply can't. We can't change it so there IS some kind of free will, but it is not as free as we think. Can you change your sexuality just by wanting it or trying something new? Nope, you definitely can't. A lot of mad cultures tried it with no sucess.
You can learn from events what you do wrong and change it to a certain extend, but not as much as a purely free mind could do. Do we need to be free? I feel quite comfortable with saying "I can't achieve everything. Just those little things I am capable of." It's a better philosophy than keep saying: "It's all my fault because I didn't try hard enough."
You can learn from events what you do wrong and change it to a certain extend, but not as much as a purely free mind could do. Do we need to be free? I feel quite comfortable with saying "I can't achieve everything. Just those little things I am capable of." It's a better philosophy than keep saying: "It's all my fault because I didn't try hard enough."
Free will is a sort of fanciful concept like the Easter bunny or alternative music. Believe in it if you want to and think that it helps but it doesn't really do anything.
No, it doesn't (for you).
Actually, I control your will.
No, there's nothing you can do about it.
There's nothing you want to do about it.
Why?
Because I said so!
Actually, I control your will.
No, there's nothing you can do about it.
There's nothing you want to do about it.
Why?
Because I said so!
Well first let's get one thing straight, we are machines or systems, not some fairy dust cotton candy magic benevolent unicorn riding beings, and as machines we operate under a certain set of rules (all those rules all still beyond our own grasp so they may seem to not exist at all, but they are there).
So the only question that remains is, are systems pre-determined?
Let's say you have 100 marbles, and you throw 1 marble at them, can you predict with absolute certainty how they will move?
Newtons laws of physics say yes, if you know the exact input it will translate to an exact output, hence every action is defining a reaction from the start of the universe till the very end.
However we already know Newtons laws barely cover the tip of an iceberg, that is now being unveiled through Quantum physics, and there you find that the exact state of anything is impossible to define therefor the next state is not and can not be pre-determined (I wont go into details because I hardly understand it myself).
Bottom line is the actual physics of the universe around us are not a stable system, and it has no pre-determined path, you can only predict something with a number of certainty, so while a system can be fairly predictable it is not set in stone, and nor are we.
So the only question that remains is, are systems pre-determined?
Let's say you have 100 marbles, and you throw 1 marble at them, can you predict with absolute certainty how they will move?
Newtons laws of physics say yes, if you know the exact input it will translate to an exact output, hence every action is defining a reaction from the start of the universe till the very end.
However we already know Newtons laws barely cover the tip of an iceberg, that is now being unveiled through Quantum physics, and there you find that the exact state of anything is impossible to define therefor the next state is not and can not be pre-determined (I wont go into details because I hardly understand it myself).
Bottom line is the actual physics of the universe around us are not a stable system, and it has no pre-determined path, you can only predict something with a number of certainty, so while a system can be fairly predictable it is not set in stone, and nor are we.
That's a very odd way a defining Compatibalism. I think Schopenhauer's thoughts on it were the best. Free will means we are free to follow our will how we see fit, but we are not free to choose our will in the first place.Sewblon said:
For instance, my will (living in america) might be to be successful in industries X,Y or Z, and I would be able to freely pursue that. However I never chose to want that, it happened organically and deterministically. You cannot choose what you want to do, because it is by definition innate, I can just choose how to do it.
nothing is pre-determined... unless you can read 6.5 billion minds at the same time and can control each of them you could never tell what will or wont happen, we all have our own free will because thats what makes us who we are, lets say someone told you to punch someone your free will would be what makes you either do it or not do it
Think of it like this:
Choose which you like better- cheese, or peanut butter.
Now, think back upon your choice, and ask yourself if, given the present, whether or not you could have chosen differently.
No, of course not. You chose what you chose, and you're not about to modify said choice made moments ago.
Of course, that doesn't mean you didn't make a decision between the two, only that you could not have made a different decision than the one you did. Note the distinction between the two.
So, to answer the question. No?
Choose which you like better- cheese, or peanut butter.
Now, think back upon your choice, and ask yourself if, given the present, whether or not you could have chosen differently.
No, of course not. You chose what you chose, and you're not about to modify said choice made moments ago.
Of course, that doesn't mean you didn't make a decision between the two, only that you could not have made a different decision than the one you did. Note the distinction between the two.
So, to answer the question. No?
It doesn't matter whether you made a decision or not, or whether the outcome is predictable. I can say 'within four hours of my posting this comment, you will eat a jam sandwich', and you can decide whether to or not. Either way, my statement is either true or false, and it makes no sense to claim that the truth of a statement is altered depending on the time at which it is made. Someone who claimed on the 21st November 1963 what JFK would be shot the following day would be regarded, in hindsight, as having been correct all along. One wouldn't say 'that prediction was not correct, but became correct the day after'. It was only shown to have been a truthful statement. In the same way, any prediction is either true or false at all times, independent of whether it has yet been shown to be one or the other.Generic Gamer said:
As for its implications regarding free will, it doesn't have any as far as I can see. The fact that one's decisions may be either inherently predictable (in the case of a completely deterministic model of reality) or essentially random (and so even less out of one's control) doesn't really have anything to do with whether those decisions are actually made. If you don't eat a jam sandwich, it'll still be because you decided not to. It was just always true that you were going to decide not to.
So I'll say we do have free will. I don't think, though, that we have control. We seem to be looking for some kind of supernatural 'consciousness' character with the ability to act on the physical self while itself remaining independent of physical law. That doesn't really seem very plausible to me. So, choice exists in the sense that any qualia exist - as a subjective component of conscious experience. You do make choices, but anyone who takes that to mean there is some secret magical version of themselves bending the laws of the universe to suit their somehow-completely-independent 'decisions' is probably going to be disappointed when they die and the spoilers are revealed.
Free will exists, We make choices every day, and the choices we made in the past shape today.
I chose to ask my girlfriend out, thus, she is my girlfriend today.
I chose to get a job, thus, I have money.
I chose to drink that can of pepsi, thus, I have to pee.
... And i think I got to end that here...
I chose to ask my girlfriend out, thus, she is my girlfriend today.
I chose to get a job, thus, I have money.
I chose to drink that can of pepsi, thus, I have to pee.
... And i think I got to end that here...
Lol, I was going to type something like this but involving hypnotoad in some way.Rex Dark said: