Poll: Entertaining vs. A Good Game

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NickCaligo42

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I've noticed a weird distinction in the gaming market. Many big hit games aren't actually very well-designed.

Bioshock, for instance, ultimately falls into the same trap 90% of games do by ambushing the player every five minutes and making it impossible to do any form of planning around the giant list of tactical tools the player has.

Spore at any given level of the game essentially features several different forms of "attack" that all function exactly the same but drain different "health bars;" if you're a carnivore you bite stuff until it does, if you're a herbivore you sing to stuff until it decides to be your friend. It's built such that there isn't any difference in the options you pick, in other words.

Western RPGs are guilty of poor design as well. Mass Effect is designed such that you can completely ignore two thirds of the combat system and hardly need to brush up on Biotics or hacking at all. Aside from that both of those serve the SAME ROLE in the game and are almost universally applicable. Since you regenerate your energy so quickly between fights, in general you can ALWAYS open up a fight by putting enemies at a huge disadvantage. I won't even talk about Fable...

All of these games suffer from what I'd call major design flaws. But they're also--depending on the audience you ask--major hit games that keep people in their seats. They're badly designed as games but they're definitely a really entertaining form of media--either for the sake of immersion and escapism in itself or for the story or because they have multiplayer or because of sheer novelty of being Batman or what have you.

Personally I have very low tolerance of games that have so many flaws. I see the mechanics as part of the whole, something that can be made to serve the way cuts in a film dictate rhythm and camera angles and zooms and focuses can have subtle but powerful effects on peoples' perception of a movie, and seeing that device wasted just gets me mad.

EDIT:
It's become clear I ought to elaborate on this "bad design" matter a little more and that these examples aren't really enough.

In the ideal situation all of a game's elements have a purpose that, although not explicitly defined, is pretty clear. Smash Bros, in spite of a few technical issues like the camera in the most recent game and the unpredictable balance issues prevalent throughout competitive games, provides a fair example. Normal attacks are a means of softening people up, smash attacks are there to either give you some space or finish people off, special attacks provide the iconic spice of each character and unique ways of fighting--IE, projectile attacks, shields, delayed weapons, anything significantly different from the norm--and the items are there to provide support. Characters have weight categories, relative strength and speed to their moves and movement, and all of the usual differences you would expect. The randomness of items' appearance is a way of evening things out and keeping even a weak player from dropping completely out of the game.

A friend of mine and I deconstructed Super Smash Bros. into tabletop role-playing game form once upon a time, and for the time that we tried to follow the Smash Bros. system as closely as possible and supplement it with instruments of problem-solving it worked out well. If you're curious the story played out like a video game-themed Saturday morning cartoon, but I digress. At some point we decided that a spell system was in order to support people who wanted to be more like spellcasters. The problem was that if players could depend on a consistent spellcaster during each session of the game for healing and support the items quickly got ignored; having someone around who can heal or buff at will is like having an unlimited supply of Maxim Tomatoes, Beam Sabers, and Metal Boxes. We were expecting players to use currency to buy items to use during each session, but the items just weren't meaningful because the players had spells. All they ever needed was the green potion necessary to refill their magic and keep moving, and green potion flowed like water as the rewards for completed sessions grew. At the same time the spell system outgrew the items in power because we'd been using a level-based system and spells were dependent on characters' stats...

You can see where this quickly got out of hand and stopped being like Smash Bros. after a while. What it BECAME I can't really say, but the point is this overlapping, unnecessary gameplay element threw off the balance of the game immensely, making players too self-sufficient for GMs to pose a reasonable challenge and putting enough coins in their hands to fill a bank per each player. A lot of digital games also suffer from flaws like this, among them the ones I've listed. Mass Effect in particular seemed like it featured a spell system just because gamers were expecting there to be one, but that's just my take on it and it certainly isn't the worst offender. Fable is one of the worst I've seen, but don't take my word for it. Watch Yahtzee's review of Fable at FullyRamblomatic. He says it all much more concisely than I do.

Maybe Bioshock would make a better example if that one isn't understandable enough. Every element has a purpose. Guns are the workhorse of any FPS, Plasmids are tools for manipulating the enemy AI and environment, hacking is just a nice break--whether it's the break from combat that comes from using it in the midst of a heated battle or the break of having another gun in the room to back you up--and the ingame economy keeps you alive and supplied. Well-designed so far.

Take the invention system, though. It's really just a middleman between me and random loot. There isn't any skill or intuition involved in crafting things in this game, it's just money in a different, more annoying form. "Okay! I killed this teleporting fire bastard! I got... ... ... a bottle of glue and some rubber bands... gee, great." It's completely extraneous. Meanwhile, a bit closer to the gameplay side of things, there's plasmids that seem like they're meant to be used more sneakily than others. Enrage in particular only really works if the enemies aren't already attacking you, but when AREN'T the enemies in Bioshock already attacking you? You're always running headlong into them, completely unable to construct a plan, let alone one involving this plasmid. You never know IF you're going to arrive at a situation where it will be useful, so it's not worth carrying. Security Bulls-Eye is another one that tends to fall by the wayside in favor of more instantly-gratifying ones like incinerate, lightning, and telekinesis, and although they are in general more useful they by no means see their full potential, in part due to the fact that it's impossible to plan around them. I'd hold that in a game with minds like Andrew Ryan and Frank Fontaine that players would want a taste of what it's like to be a magnificent bastard themselves and would really like to outwit enemies instead of overpower them, but maybe that's just me.

What I'd like to know is: where does the entertainment value come from if not from an actually well-designed game? The answer is probably all of the options I've listed, but I'm still curious.
 

Aardvark Soup

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I actually do agree with you. A lot of modern games simply take a very basic type of game, like a FPS and add a lot of gimmicks to make it seem that you need to strategecally use your abilities, while actually you're not using them and just shooting everything. Bioshock does have the advantage of having great visuals and a good atmosphere, but it actually is a pretty unoriginal first person shooter.
 

Jamash

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Jun 25, 2008
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Although lot's of the poll choices aren't mutually exclusive, I voted for "An outlet for creativity".

I've had lots more fun in Saint's Row 2 because of the ability to customise the cars and different outfits, by choosing the the different colours, patterns and clothing combinations.

Also in games like Forza 2 and Midnight Club: LA, although they are good solid racing games, I find that my enjoyment of them has been enhanced by the customisation options.

The same is true with Tekken 5, Virtua Fighter 5 and Soul Calibur 4, Def Jam: FFNY, and Mortal Kombat Armageddon. All those fighting games were vastly improved over their predecessors because of their customisation options.

I know these aren't huge outlets for creativity, not on the scale of Little Big Planet, but even these small opportunities for me are an outlet for creativity and add to the enjoyment and lifespan of a game.
 

squid5580

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Feb 20, 2008
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Aardvark Soup said:
I actually do agree with you. A lot of modern games simply take a very basic type of game, like a FPS and add a lot of gimmicks to make it seem that you need to strategecally use your abilities, while actually you're not using them and just shooting everything. Bioshock does have the advantage of having great visuals and a good atmosphere, but it actually is a pretty unoriginal first person shooter.
Umm by that logic isn't every game from any genre unoriginal now? An fps (or another game type) is by its own right unoriginal relying on things like story and "gimmick" to set it apart from the rest of the games in said genre. We can't expect anyone to reinvent the wheel here. All we can expect them to do is improve on it. Spit shine the graphics, add different gameplay elements to hopefully make it more fun (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't) and toss in a good involving story.

I also think we need to learn to lower our expectations a bit. We are in charge of our own fun. I think we have come to rely on games to be fun without any effort on our part. We seem to get so hooked up on the technical aspects and comparing this game to that game that we lose sight of the most important aspect. Simply is it fun.
 

curlycrouton

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Indigo_Dingo said:
...the hell are you talking about? What you're doing sounds like complaints about your problems with the foundations of the genres. Bioshock is partly a survival horror game, and as such uses atmosphere and ambushing. Spore's shit. And I can't tell what the hell you're saying for the rest.
Agreed.

You never quite seem to make an actual point, it's just poorly structured rambling about something to do with games as far as I can tell.

I hope to see NewClassic around these parts before long.
He's probably too busy being a genius though.
 

hurlzie

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Jan 22, 2009
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"A friend of mine and I deconstructed Super Smash Bros." lol.

Any in depth analysis that uses smashbros, bioshock and spore as corner-stones are doomed from the start... and since you use the BioShock example to often i'll just say: the whole game can be completed on hard with the wrench in a few hours.

You can watch as many Zero Punctuation reviews as you want, but trying to objectify something so subjective and personally biased is like beating a dead horse.
Gamers want: good gameplay, story, atmosphere, replay value, learning curve, singleplayer, coop, multiplayer, strategy, controls, camera angles ...

and while i like what your getting at,
everyone's going to have differnet definitions of the above.
 

742

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Sep 8, 2008
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bioshock... are you kidding? its all about synergy, incinerate and bees +camoflauge is just one idea, and its a god damn horror game, of course you get ambushed, the thing is to try to be ready for everything, and when that fails, remember that they made it too easy and just play like a ninja. spore i never played, but it was EA. im going to go out on a limb and say it sucked. smash bros... well it was a fun mindless fighting game, they made mistakes, but overall the game design was good. and there was no story.

if game design is TOTAL crap, it doesnt matter how good the atmosphere, take condemded as an example, loved the atmosphere and the spooky, but it felt like one of those bad point and click adventure games that yahtzee sometimes speaks of, where you just walk up to EVERYTHING and press A until you can move on. boring. but great gameplay and no story gets boring after a while too, super smash brothers is fun... until i unlock everything, then i NEED a friend to keep playing or i get bored and do something else. morrowind i can play alone, even with its horrible combat from noon to 1 PM. thats 25 hours of chips and noodle soup in foam cups.

WoW... dont get me started. i loathe it.

a game has to have a combination of gameplay, good design, pretty factor, atmosphere/story, and maybe a good social thing. maybe. you can go without one, maybe even two or three if you do the others REALLY well.

lets take bioshock as an example, it was pretty, it had a good atmosphere, the gameplay was good, as was the level design, the story was spectacular... but it was single player, it was a great game.
super smash brothers: spectacular gameplay, great to play with friends, decent level design (there was no single player story mode in the second one, and the third one doesnt count, it was just that terrible, but the multiplayer levels were good) not the prettiest game in the world, not atmospheric at ALL. no story. still a good game.
morrowind: great story, good atmosphere, the graphics were only pretty on the absolute highest settings, and even then they were only moderately good looking. but they were OK. the combat was abysmal, something to be avoided, the stealth wasnt too great either, so the gameplay wasnt too great. the overall game i would say was well designed, some of the levels could have used some work, but they pulled off a good open world game and some of the levels were REALLY well designed. and completely single player. so it gets a "good" on this one, but just barely. still, an awesome game.

now your going to notice that all of these games were EXTREMELY good in at least one category. and got TOTAL crap in at least one other (partially because other people have a habbit of ruining atmosphere, and good level design for gameplay purposes is generally either completely open or completely linear, when you try to shoot for a balance you usually hit your own foot and mangle either the gameplay or the atmosphere)just do something good, and stick with it, dont try to do EVERYTHING, just do SOMETHING well.
 

NickCaligo42

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If it were a perfectly structured argument I wouldn't have needed to post it here, would I?

Additionally I don't appreciate the downright snotty attitude. For as much as my argument was pretty well unstructured rambling I don't think "lol" constitutes a valid argument against it. If these aren't valid examples, what are?
 

Eclectic Dreck

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I selected other because I like all of those qualifications. A well designed single player game (or even multiplayer) with solid controls, and fun gameplay mechanics are a sure way to make me waste at least a few hours on the game. Stories are great to have as well, but often I find them less important than the core gameplay itself. After all, if the game isn't any fun to play then the odds are good that unless it has a phenomenal story I won't be sticking around to see how it ends. Outlets for creativity are a good bet as well. Games that allow you to approach problems in new an interesting ways are one such example. Games that are based around creation itself are fairly rare but often end up being absolute gems. Games that allow for social experiences are perhaps the most powerful of games. I'm often willing to overlook quite a few flaws in a game when you can play it cooperatively with a friend (Mercenaries 2, Army of Two as notable, recent examples).

Indeed, there are games that I specifically played BECAUSE I could play with a friend - the addition of the social element was so strong that it overcame the glaring flaws apparent in the games. Sometimes (as was the case in Mercenaries 2) the social element allowed for creative approaches to problems not otherwise available, or at the very least allowed players to while away their time doing silly things (picking up jeeps of opposing factions using the helicopter winches and having them fight while careening through a city at 50 feet, using a winch on a large boat that the friend was standing on, having said friend plant copious amounts of C4 onto the boat and then dropping the boat onto a building while the player planting C4 tries desperately to graple onto the helicopter and so on)
 

Mr0llivand3r

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Aug 10, 2008
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to anyone who answered "a good story that gets me involved" you should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s