We have to make assumptions otherwise we wouldn't get past the four year old "please don't turn the lights off it's scary" phase.
Poll: Evolved belief's
- Thread starter bad rider
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Dear sirtehb0ll0x said:
I write this reply with utmost vulgarity, after thinking it through I have decided to issue you with a response equating to what you have written. I don't mind your opinion and while it must be said that I hold any rational response in the highest regard, (provided it is subject to the question at hand) I find your response irritable and demeaning. I do not mind If you don't have an opinion, or if you want to spread contructive critism, however there is no need to be an arrogant prick.
Bite me
Love Bad Rider
Dude, calm down. He wrote a sentence about the presentation of your argument. He didn't call it flawed, he didn't make any mean spirited remarks. With the exception of the Latina joke he threw on the end, I'm in complete agreement. Much of what you say is bogged down by the fact that I can barely read what you're trying to say. Places where there should be new sentences are dragged out through commas, making two or three points try to sound like one, and spelling errors are enough to completely misinterpret your post. Grow up, and don't take offense to small statements that are more helpful then you want to believe.bad rider said:
It's difficult to read, but it has potential. Please clean it up, and we will try to have a civil discussion.
I'm going to say that you would assume that your home is WHERE you left it. That's really about you could though.Kirra said:
Okay, I understand he was being constructive and that is fine, I mention that in said response. However I don't appresciate the sentiment of deem worthy of my time. That is the arrogance I loathe wherever I see it. See you have evaluated and shown me where I'm going wrong which is far more helpful then what he wrote.dwightsteel said:
Edit: What spelling errors, everyones mentioning them, but I cleaned them up when I first did a grammer check?
Well whenever anything disappears from my vision I assume that its no longer there or dead, its great you never have to worry about anything that's not directly in front of you because it no longer exists in your own universe.
Oh i don't actually assume that. Who know maybe someone thought it was funny and moved the building somehow (That would actually be pretty funny.). When i'm supposed to go home i just go to the place where is was before (And hopefully still is.).vxicepickxv said:
Sorry i couldnt read the whole thing, but from what other people posted. .
We cant really live without having some Faith,
how are we sure of anything?
Thats why the Atheist arg is flawed, saying you cant prove God exists, so he doesnt exist
No one can prove if two parallel lines never meet, yet it exists.
All we have keeping us here, is Faith.
We cant really live without having some Faith,
how are we sure of anything?
Thats why the Atheist arg is flawed, saying you cant prove God exists, so he doesnt exist
No one can prove if two parallel lines never meet, yet it exists.
All we have keeping us here, is Faith.
Atheists don't necessarily say god(s) can't exist, they just don't believe he does/they do.
While agnostics simply say they don't know.
Of course you can't disprove a supernatural being, but why would you have to when it's based on faith or the lack thereof, anyway?
As for needing faith, that's a personal thing I guess.
While agnostics simply say they don't know.
Of course you can't disprove a supernatural being, but why would you have to when it's based on faith or the lack thereof, anyway?
As for needing faith, that's a personal thing I guess.
belief = "evolved" assumptions? sounds kinda right to me.
In order to not start a flame war, lets look as some of the "dead" relegions greek mythology and norse mytholohy for instance had Zeus and Thor, because people could not understand lightning, so they assumed someone was making the lightning, hence thundergods.
The sun was ridden in on a charriot in greek mythology by Helios if i'm not mistaken, and then the night was ridden in by someone else whom i don't remember the name of.
Most things could not understand was explained by relegion/spirituallity, because we didn't know science the way we do now, and humans by nature crave an explanation of stuff.
I'll bet they'll look back at us 1000 years form now, and they'll be like Doh! Did they actually believe that?
Since most things already have scientific explenations today it oculd be otehr things like did they honestly not know aliens lived amongst us?
In order to not start a flame war, lets look as some of the "dead" relegions greek mythology and norse mytholohy for instance had Zeus and Thor, because people could not understand lightning, so they assumed someone was making the lightning, hence thundergods.
The sun was ridden in on a charriot in greek mythology by Helios if i'm not mistaken, and then the night was ridden in by someone else whom i don't remember the name of.
Most things could not understand was explained by relegion/spirituallity, because we didn't know science the way we do now, and humans by nature crave an explanation of stuff.
I'll bet they'll look back at us 1000 years form now, and they'll be like Doh! Did they actually believe that?
Since most things already have scientific explenations today it oculd be otehr things like did they honestly not know aliens lived amongst us?
OK, it's time to flex my editorial muscles. I've taken the liberty of going through your post and trying to make it more "readable". Overall it wasn't a brilliant piece of writing but you should eventually get better with practice, and it was at least possible to understand once one analyses it somewhat. I'm glad you put it into paragraphs as there's nothing more intimidating than a Great Wall of Text.
OP, my version:
The other day there was a thread on the "If a tree falls in the wood" question which led me to start thinking about how much we as a species assume.
Every day you leave for work or school, or just go out, and you expect everything at home to be the same as you left it; you assume that where you're going is the same as yesterday. We make these assumptions because otherwise we would be pretty screwed. Can you imagine our predecessors chasing after an antelope, only to see run behind a tree and become completely at a loss as to where it went? It makes sense that we as a species would have adapted to be more viable at finding things that leave our senses, so even if we can't see it we believe it exists beyond our vision.
Now, even young animals - wolves, squirrels etc. - show this; it's not unique to humans so how does this have anything to do with beliefs? Well, if we couple this with our greater self awareness, (I can in no way prove this) we could suddenly find ourselves in a position where when we reflect on abstract ideas they get combined with the understanding that things happen beyond our perceptions. These ideas could mesh together to allow us to accept the concept of god.
To simplify: we assume things happen outside our immediate perception each day, couple that with our ability to think abstractly, we reflect on this and suddenly we begin seeing daily events playing out in a way that suggests they can be influenced by an exterior power.
Now, you may think that's well and good, but animals such as apes and dolphins show this and (from what we know of them) they don't believe in god. However, perhaps it's a consequence of greater self awareness and the belief that things happen beyond our control. So while initially we may think back and link yesterday's breakfast with an idea that everything sort of happened on its own, we may begin to introduce an idea that someone has influenced that and perhaps we start connecting dots. This allows us to function in everyday life without fears and worries because we believe an omnipotent being is helping us through the day, which will allow us to go and face threats and dangers with courage. We believe we could overcome an obstacle because we are being helped, thus allowing us to do bigger and better things (build houses, get to more fertile land etc.) meaning greater chances of survival. So is this thanks to evolution?
My own post:
You've hit upon the key distinguishing feature between animals and humans: while they may very well have feelings and be able to interact socially, they don't display any kind of proclivity for abstract thought. There's a distinct difference between "There's some food over there," or "I want to be your friend," and "Bloody awful weather we're having," or "Pi is an irrational number." Put another way, you see apes helping each other out but you don't see them sitting around a campfire telling ghost stories.
That said, your idea is quite plausible. I would say that evolution only gave us the ability to believe in gods because it gave us the ability to believe in the first place. It doesn't really explain convincingly enough for me why humans would really want to believe in gods. Even in the Classical ages atheism wasn't too uncommon: in Rome, for example, you were considered a good citizen if you attended all the religious festivals but nobody really expected you to actually believe all the stories as literal truth. That's not to say that such people didn't exist (quite a few emperors did, and only some of them were mad), but it wasn't necessary if one only wanted to be accepted socially.
OP, my version:
The other day there was a thread on the "If a tree falls in the wood" question which led me to start thinking about how much we as a species assume.
Every day you leave for work or school, or just go out, and you expect everything at home to be the same as you left it; you assume that where you're going is the same as yesterday. We make these assumptions because otherwise we would be pretty screwed. Can you imagine our predecessors chasing after an antelope, only to see run behind a tree and become completely at a loss as to where it went? It makes sense that we as a species would have adapted to be more viable at finding things that leave our senses, so even if we can't see it we believe it exists beyond our vision.
Now, even young animals - wolves, squirrels etc. - show this; it's not unique to humans so how does this have anything to do with beliefs? Well, if we couple this with our greater self awareness, (I can in no way prove this) we could suddenly find ourselves in a position where when we reflect on abstract ideas they get combined with the understanding that things happen beyond our perceptions. These ideas could mesh together to allow us to accept the concept of god.
To simplify: we assume things happen outside our immediate perception each day, couple that with our ability to think abstractly, we reflect on this and suddenly we begin seeing daily events playing out in a way that suggests they can be influenced by an exterior power.
Now, you may think that's well and good, but animals such as apes and dolphins show this and (from what we know of them) they don't believe in god. However, perhaps it's a consequence of greater self awareness and the belief that things happen beyond our control. So while initially we may think back and link yesterday's breakfast with an idea that everything sort of happened on its own, we may begin to introduce an idea that someone has influenced that and perhaps we start connecting dots. This allows us to function in everyday life without fears and worries because we believe an omnipotent being is helping us through the day, which will allow us to go and face threats and dangers with courage. We believe we could overcome an obstacle because we are being helped, thus allowing us to do bigger and better things (build houses, get to more fertile land etc.) meaning greater chances of survival. So is this thanks to evolution?
My own post:
You've hit upon the key distinguishing feature between animals and humans: while they may very well have feelings and be able to interact socially, they don't display any kind of proclivity for abstract thought. There's a distinct difference between "There's some food over there," or "I want to be your friend," and "Bloody awful weather we're having," or "Pi is an irrational number." Put another way, you see apes helping each other out but you don't see them sitting around a campfire telling ghost stories.
That said, your idea is quite plausible. I would say that evolution only gave us the ability to believe in gods because it gave us the ability to believe in the first place. It doesn't really explain convincingly enough for me why humans would really want to believe in gods. Even in the Classical ages atheism wasn't too uncommon: in Rome, for example, you were considered a good citizen if you attended all the religious festivals but nobody really expected you to actually believe all the stories as literal truth. That's not to say that such people didn't exist (quite a few emperors did, and only some of them were mad), but it wasn't necessary if one only wanted to be accepted socially.
Our assurances are built upon cause and effect. If I go to HERE, this will be HERE. I'm not sure if I can really explain it better than that.Gamine said:
There are multiple reasons atheists will say what they say, please keep that in mind.
Actually the parallel line thing is proven with a mathematical formula.
I thought the definition of two parallel lines was that they would never meet.
It's hardly like we need faith - or a mathematical formula - to know that a square will never have five sides, it just isn't possible because of what we define a square to be.
It's hardly like we need faith - or a mathematical formula - to know that a square will never have five sides, it just isn't possible because of what we define a square to be.
I agree with what you are saying but have a slightly different way of getting to it.ILPPendant said:
Learned responses is what this largely hinges on. Both humans and animals possess the ability to observe an event, see what happens and note the result. Take for example an apple from a tree. An animal will see that, understand that the apples fall and that then they can be eaten. There is no consideration of why however, the comprehension is purely based on utility.
Humans do above, but have the ability to wonder why. Our methods on this differ, but the crucial commonality is the desire to explain.
Whether it leads to belief in god is a secondary matter. Though one of many reasons for faith, the comfort it gives in an explanation for everything is important to many people. Now, I don't know if it should be termed evolutionary but I think we're increasingly moving away from this idea as a world view. The questioning process is moving on from 'explain' to demonstrate. People are less satisfied with a theory that tells a story and want a theory that can be reproduced.
Getting side tracked a little. But anyway, if you or OP want an interesting read on this I've just been proof reading an essay concerning taken for granted beliefs and how they are inherent to us. If you like I could ask if it would be okay to send this to you. Discusses the idea comparing socio-economic ideas of milanesian tribes compared to western ones. Not as a critique but more as an indication of how view points that seem so clearly 'how things work' can differ drastically based on upbringing.