Poll: Freedom or Equality, Americans?

[Echo3Delta]

Right, left, Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal; These words, though familiar to us Americans, are meaningless with out context, and indeed their meanings change, sometimes several times within a generation. It's all very complicated. That's why I've boiled the entire American political discourse down to a simple choice between known quantities. Which do you value more; Your individual freedom or a leveling of the playing field?

Once you've answered, analyze your own political views as well as the current debates our country is facing, and map them onto the question of freedom vs. equality. You'll find that this is perhaps the most succinct summary of our problems.

P.S. No, of course you can't have both. A truly free society (monitored by just laws of course) will never be equal, since men will naturally build themselves up, tear others down, and tear themselves down. And of course, a truly equal society cannot be free for the same reason. Men at the top would have to be forcibly lowered (or "capped" if you will), while men at the bottom would be forcibly raised up.

P.P.S. I use the word "men" to mean "all humans." I'm a bit old school.

*edit* Ah, I see people being hung up over the uncomfortable idea of choosing between absolutes. Let me stress that the fundamental question of this thread is: Which do you value more?

 

[Inverse Skies]

I'm Australian... I'm going to say freedom. Yeah that seems like a good enough answer to this. Freedom because thats already what I have and after studying indigenous affairs for any length of time you begin to realise that equality is such a subjective term and its almost impossible to achieve this - there are always going to be differing rungs and teirs of social structure. Hence why freedom is more important, everyone can have that even if they aren't equal.

 

[Skeleon]

I'm not an American, so I may be biased but...

Equality.

Everybody needs to have the same chances in life.
Too often are children of workers forced to do some shitty job because they can't afford higher education. That's bull because everybody has great potential, unfortunately without the right education it will never be used, though.

Also, the downtrodden have a right to a decent life like everybody else does, that's why we need health care for everybody as well as a certain standard of living.

Freedom is only good as long as one's individual freedom isn't restricting another person's. Without a wee bit of regulation, society descents into modern slavery.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

Why are these threads always directed towards the Americans?
Like the rest of us are to barbaric and savage to understand these very simple concepts.

And you can have both anyway.

 

[mr mcshiznit]

I'm happily American and i say how bout a little of both. Pretty much absolute anything is a bad idea. Absolute freedom = crime and people really having no personal rights. Absolute Equality = great until your not down with the status quo. So i personally value having my personal freedoms while i also enjoy a relative equality in my country.

 

[Echo3Delta]

The reason I directed this thread toward Americans is that I'm American and am naturally more interested in my country's dialogue. I realize this forum is international, and others are free to start a global thread on this topic, or one specific to their home country as well.

 

[Sparrow]

Eqaulity, to a certain extent.

ENGLAND FTW

 

[McClaud]

I love how you said they have to be exclusive, because you have a flawed sense of what freedom can mean.

So I'm not voting in your poll.

 

[Uszi]

And you can have both anyway.

I love how you said they have to be exclusive, because you have a flawed sense of what freedom can mean.

So I'm not voting in your poll.

I don't think by voting you think one precludes the other.

I think its more of a, which is more important to you?

For instance, if we a certain cache of political resource X, how should we divvy up X between Equality and Freedom? Let's suppose for the sake of the thread that if you split it 50-50, then neither would be advanced and you'd stay at your current state.

I put freedom.

Oh, and in reply: To some extent, they are exclusive: some of us, for instance, would like the freedom to not be equal with everyone else.

 

[Echo3Delta]

I don't think by voting you think one precludes the other.

I think its more of a, which is more important to you?

For instance, if we a certain cache of political resource X, how should we divvy up X between Equality and Freedom? Let's suppose for the sake of the thread that if you split it 50-50, then neither would be advanced and you'd stay at your current state.

I put freedom.

Oh, and in reply: To some extent, they are exclusive: some of us, for instance, would like the freedom to not be equal with everyone else.

This.

 

[JMeganSnow]

*edit* Ah, I see people being hung up over the uncomfortable idea of choosing between absolutes. Let me stress that the fundamental question of this thread is: Which do you value more?

The only equality that matters is equality before the law, and that's a prerequisite of freedom. So, freedom all the way.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

I don't think by voting you think one precludes the other.

He clearly states in the OP:

of course you can't have both.

 

[sneakypenguin]

Most will say freedom but they don't mean it, we would rather have security and "equality" than true freedom. As long as we can vote in american idol and watch watever TV we want we don't care.

I say freedom, freedom to make my own choices, freedom to keep my money, freedom to use my talents to further my wealth, freedom to speak my mind.

Most want government to teach them, to give them healthcare, to basicly provide cradle to grave benefits. Hardly "freedom"

 

[sneakypenguin]

*edit* Ah, I see people being hung up over the uncomfortable idea of choosing between absolutes. Let me stress that the fundamental question of this thread is: Which do you value more?

The only equality that matters is equality before the law, and that's a prerequisite of freedom. So, freedom all the way.

Good grief you always put things better/more clear than I can. Lol I envy you, comes with practice I suppose.

 

[Uszi]

I don't think by voting you think one precludes the other.

He clearly states in the OP:

of course you can't have both.

Alrighty then.
So I'm wrong?
I don't really get it.
Gooooo Freedom! Equality sucks ass!

 

[NeutralDrow]

P.S. No, of course you can't have both. A truly free society (monitored by just laws of course) will never be equal, since men will naturally build themselves up, tear others down, and tear themselves down. And of course, a truly equal society cannot be free for the same reason. Men at the top would have to be forcibly lowered (or "capped" if you will), while men at the bottom would be forcibly raised up.

I think we have different definitions of "free" and "equal." Every read/watched Harrison Bergeron?

*edit* Ah, I see people being hung up over the uncomfortable idea of choosing between absolutes. Let me stress that the fundamental question of this thread is: Which do you value more?

Both, because my definitions of Freedom and Equality are very close, and certainly not exclusive.. Your definition of "equal" I would describe as "sameness,"

 

[Echo3Delta]

I don't think by voting you think one precludes the other.

He clearly states in the OP:

of course you can't have both.

I can see where the confusion comes from. I don't want a litany of responses saying, "BOTH!" That defeats the purpose of the discussion. I want to know which one people value more. I said you can't have both as a way of explaining why I didn't include a third option in the poll. What I meant of course is that you can't value both of them more than the other.

 

[Echo3Delta]

P.S. No, of course you can't have both. A truly free society (monitored by just laws of course) will never be equal, since men will naturally build themselves up, tear others down, and tear themselves down. And of course, a truly equal society cannot be free for the same reason. Men at the top would have to be forcibly lowered (or "capped" if you will), while men at the bottom would be forcibly raised up.

I think we have different definitions of "free" and "equal." Every read/watched Harrison Bergeron?

*edit* Ah, I see people being hung up over the uncomfortable idea of choosing between absolutes. Let me stress that the fundamental question of this thread is: Which do you value more?

Both, because my definitions of Freedom and Equality are very close, and certainly not exclusive.. Your definition of "equal" I would describe as "sameness,"

Interesting! No, I'm afraid I've never read/watched Harrison Bergeron. But I'm interested in your definition of equality. I certainly would say it is very close if not synonymous with "sameness." I'm a rather mathematical thinker, and "=" means same. Of course, there are different kinds of equality: Equality in opportunity vs equality in outcome; and equality before the law (to which JMeganSnow gave a shout-out).

Now under what condition would you say that men are equal? And how would you say that they are free at the same time?

 

[Tech Team FTW!]

Didn't the founding fathers want a nation devoted to freedom and the pursuit of happyness?

P.S I am Australian.

 

[Agayek]

I'm not an American, so I may be biased but...

Equality.

Everybody needs to have the same chances in life.
Too often are children of workers forced to do some shitty job because they can't afford higher education. That's bull because everybody has great potential, unfortunately without the right education it will never be used, though.

Also, the downtrodden have a right to a decent life like everybody else does, that's why we need health care for everybody as well as a certain standard of living.

Freedom is only good as long as one's individual freedom isn't restricting another person's. Without a wee bit of regulation, society descents into modern slavery.

Didn't read the rest of the thread, but the very definition of Freedom is that everyone has equal chances. Enforced equality does nothing but hamper the best while extolling the worst.

If people are willing to work, in a free society, they can make anything of themselves. Freedom by its very nature means that you are responsible for your actions and choices. That means where you are is the result of nothing more than your own decisions. It is not just, it is not fair, but it is the only way we can improve as a society.

The downtrodden have the right to precisely the life they are willing to work for. My father grew up with 6 siblings, and they had to take turns on who was clothed each day. Yet 20 years later, he had a 6 figure income. If people are willing to put in sweat, blood, and quite possibly tears, they can make absolutely anything of themselves. The only difference is how hard you are willing to work.


Freedom will always be the right response to this question. Freedom is a terrifying thing, but it's the only option that will allow for improvements. Responsibility is scary, but we can't let that stop us from progressing as a species.