Poll: Gay Gamers - What do you want?

[Vigormortis]

snip

Holy misinterpretation, Batman. You read far more into my post than I ever typed.

I never once said I was uncomfortable with the inclusion of gay characters in Bioware's games. Or any games, for that matter.. Frankly, I'm offended that you're seemingly trying to paint me as a homophobe, especially in light of me being bisexual.

And if I may, I disagree on "they're complex, developed characters". I've never been a fan of Bioware's writing style. I don't care if you personally like it. That's fine. No skin off my bones. I hope you continue to enjoy their games. But for me, I'm not a fan. And as a result, I don't feel as though any of the romance options within the game are anything more than cliches.

I'm also curious why your response to me was so vitriolic when, even though I was mirroring his opinion, your response to TheLunatic was comparatively tempered. Did your preconceived notion that I might be a straight guy taint your response? Or perhaps it was that I dared to call out a Bioware game?[footnote]Wouldn't be the first time a poster on this site jumped down my throat for saying anything negative about a Bioware game.[/footnote]

 

[TristanBelmont]

Ya it's about verity. My personal want is a cyberpunk game that kind of spins around LGTB themes.

I don't know why but the moment I read this, I felt I need it in my life...

Blade Runner: Shadowrun Returns 3: Starring Ian McKellan and Ellen Page.

 

[IronSkape]

snip

Holy misinterpretation, Batman. You read far more into my post than I ever typed.

I never once said I was uncomfortable with the inclusion of gay characters in Bioware's games. Or any games, for that matter.. Frankly, I'm offended that you're seemingly trying to paint me as a homophobe, especially in light of me being bisexual.

And if I may, I disagree on "they're complex, developed characters". I've never been a fan of Bioware's writing style. I don't care if you personally like it. That's fine. No skin off my bones. I hope you continue to enjoy their games. But for me, I'm not a fan. And as a result, I don't feel as though any of the romance options within the game are anything more than cliches.

I'm also curious why your response to me was so vitriolic when, even though I was mirroring his opinion, your response to TheLunatic was comparatively tempered. Did your preconceived notion that I might be a straight guy taint your response? Or perhaps it was that I dared to call out a Bioware game?[footnote]Wouldn't be the first time a poster on this site jumped down my throat for saying anything negative about a Bioware game.[/footnote]

..you know, looking back this morning, I did come off kind of dickish, and for that I apologize. Just write off the tone of that post as prohomormone-induced fanboy rage.

It wasn't so much against you, personally, you just said the word "tokenism" and my vision turned red, smoke started coming out of my nostrils, and I don't remember much after that until I woke up in an alley surrounded by dead raccoons.

See, I view tokenism as the inclusion of a minority solely to be used as a defense against accusations of bigotry. It's the, "I can make as many racist jokes as I want, I have a black friend" defense. It's not inclusion for the sake of inclusion, it's inclusion for the sake of exclusion.

However, a lot of people DO think that the only reason to include a character who isn't a straight, white male is so you can say you included a character who isn't a straight, white male. THAT'S the definition of tokenism I absolutely hate, and I think your use of the word, in that post, was closer to the latter. If you program a gay character into your game because you wanted to have a gay character in your game, that's not tokenism.

I actually think that TheLunatic's suggestion of LGBT inclustion (an NPC mentioning it in passing) is far closer to tokenism than anything BioWare has done. Token characters take minimal effort and seem like an afterthought meant to fill a quota, rather than a conscious decision to enrich the world through diversity of populace. We can disagree on the quality of BioWare's writing, but it's hard to argue that no effort went into crafting Dorian and Sera.

Getting back on topic and to further cement my persona as a hopeless fanboy, I'd say I want more games like Dragon Age:Inquisition. Gay Romance options in games where romance is a selling point, and more LGBT characters in games that emphasize characters.

 

[Coreless]

lol Bioware using LGBT as a marketing tool? how utterly ridiculous, I want someone to show me where they have ever used LGBT representation as a marketing tool and I'm not talking about articles written by journalists, I'm talking actual advertisements from EA. I think peoples agendas with Bioware and EA are really starting to become irrationally hyperbolic, none of the characters are ever just "gay" or "lesbian" for the sake of it. They all have stories and histories about who they are and where they stand and spend about 99% of the game fighting enemies. I have yet to see one character declare "look at me!! I'm gay, can't you see how gay I am!!" and its just laughable at this point to say that their characters are examples of tokenism.

 

[MeatMachine]

I wouldn't mind homosexual characters in my games. A little well-executed diversity would be nice.
That being said, I think it'd also be incredibly easy to overdue it and shoehorn it in simply for the sake of having it. Diversity is not INTRINSICALLY good, and I would not be interested in playing a game that centers around a gay character's struggles of being gay. If it's a well-implimented character arc, it could be pretty awesome - if it's overemphisized, it would probably lose it's significance and impact.

 

[poundingmetal74]

I don't think every, or even most, games should have an LGBT character, but their inclusion is often welcome. Increased visibility is important for helping to curb homophobia and engaging those people who've "never met a gay" the chance to interact with such a person. Also, giving gay people an additional role model can be a great thing so they don't feel so alone/different. But beyond that, making a character gay "just because" can lead to sloppy writing.

With that said, I really had a great experience with Gone Home, and I doubt it would have had nearly the emotional impact if Sam had been straight. Countless times I found myself thinking "Oh, so I'm not the only person who's had that experience?"

 

[Vigormortis]

..you know, looking back this morning, I did come off kind of dickish, and for that I apologize. Just write off the tone of that post as prohomormone-induced fanboy rage.

It wasn't so much against you, personally, you just said the word "tokenism" and my vision turned red, smoke started coming out of my nostrils, and I don't remember much after that until I woke up in an alley surrounded by dead raccoons.

See, I view tokenism as the inclusion of a minority solely to be used as a defense against accusations of bigotry. It's the, "I can make as many racist jokes as I want, I have a black friend" defense. It's not inclusion for the sake of inclusion, it's inclusion for the sake of exclusion.

However, a lot of people DO think that the only reason to include a character who isn't a straight, white male is so you can say you included a character who isn't a straight, white male. THAT'S the definition of tokenism I absolutely hate, and I think your use of the word, in that post, was closer to the latter. If you program a gay character into your game because you wanted to have a gay character in your game, that's not tokenism.

I actually think that TheLunatic's suggestion of LGBT inclustion (an NPC mentioning it in passing) is far closer to tokenism than anything BioWare has done. Token characters take minimal effort and seem like an afterthought meant to fill a quota, rather than a conscious decision to enrich the world through diversity of populace. We can disagree on the quality of BioWare's writing, but it's hard to argue that no effort went into crafting Dorian and Sera.

Getting back on topic and to further cement my persona as a hopeless fanboy, I'd say I want more games like Dragon Age:Inquisition. Gay Romance options in games where romance is a selling point, and more LGBT characters in games that emphasize characters.

Fair enough. And granted, perhaps I should have used a more apt term than tokenism. I was attempting to use TheLunatic's post as a segue, but may have adhered too closely to the original content than was needed.

Though, I don't feel as though the term is completely inappropriate to the situation, if only because the concept of gay characters and gay romance options are used as a selling point as if they're some special circumstance outside of heterosexual characters and straight romance novels. As if their inclusion is special.

And while it might be true, insofar as industry standards are concerned, I feel like it shouldn't be treated as such. I believe that such options should be included by default. As a result, when Bioware and EA taut their inclusion, it feels like they're saying, "Look! Look how progressive we are! We included gay characters! Shocking!"

Now, that might be me projecting a bias onto Bioware's comments. I fully admit that. But it's still how I feel.

That said, I'm glad they're willing to include such options. I only wish such a practice was more common.

 

[Riotguards]

i don't care if they're gay, straight, etc so long as the game play, story and interesting characters then there's no real need to focus on such frivolous things

 

[IronSkape]

i don't care if they're gay, straight, etc so long as the game play, story and interesting characters then there's no real need to focus on such frivolous things

I mean... I know I don't speak for all gay people, but I don't think it's frivolous. We're not well represented in media in general, and I think games are better when they include us.

"A forbidden romance between two souls the world has deemed blasphemous, can our two heroes overcome an oppressive society and prove that love conquers all?"

Come on, that's basically the plot of all romance novels, ever, it seems like we could add a fresh take on an old story. Or maybe fresh isn't the right word....hairy, yeah, that's it. A hairier take.

 

[IronSkape]

Fair enough. And granted, perhaps I should have used a more apt term than tokenism. I was attempting to use TheLunatic's post as a segue, but may have adhered too closely to the original content than was needed.

Though, I don't feel as though the tern is completely inappropriate to the situation, if only because the concept of gay characters and gay romance options are used as a selling point as if they're some special circumstance outside of heterosexual characters and straight romance novels. As if their inclusion is special.

And while it might be true, insofar as industry standards are concerned, I feel like it shouldn't be treated as such. I believe that such options should be included by default. As a result, when Bioware and EA taut their inclusion, it feels like they're saying, "Look! Look how progressive we are! We included gay characters! Shocking!"

Now, that might be me projecting a bias onto Bioware's comments. I fully admit that. But it's still how I feel.

That said, I'm glad they're willing to include such options. I only wish such a practice was more common.

I see your point, and I'd also like for the inclusion of gay characters to just be a normal thing that doesn't raise eyebrows. But, for now, it's not the norm, and there are still publishers who think such inclusion would be "too political" and turn away potential sales. Any company willing to take the risk -legitimate or no- and go against the grain deserves some credit in my book.

And hey, when you promote your game, you list the good stuff. I'd rank "being socially proressive" up there with "immersive world" and "sold combat" as good things worth pointing out.

Also, props to us for identifying misinterpretation and remaining civil during discussion. Wi-five.

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

I said, "Regular games with well-developed gay characters." But what I really mean is, "Mainstream games that aren't afraid of gay issues."
I know everyone likes to believe that now "OMG, THERE'S GAY PEOPLE IN EVERYTHING NOW!" Which, okay. That's true if the emphasis is on the "gay" and not on the "people." From the mainstream developers like Bioware, they're really just characters who have the potential to be gay.

I know that the common motto is "Gay people are just like straight people, but gay," we DO have different issues. You'll never see a straight person worried about getting beaten in the street for their sexuality. A cis-woman never has to tackle with being "allowed" to wear women's clothes.

So yes. There are GAY people in games now, but not gay PEOPLE.

But I'm sure I'll be waiting a long, long time for this. Because gaming is still slow to maturely incorporate things like female issues into the game. Sure, there's women. But do games ever consider the implications that gender could have? Not often.

As to why not "GAY"-specific games? Personal bias. I find the LGBT-directed shows to be incredibly stilted in their writing.

Do any of my fellow queers agree?

 

[the_dramatica]

Well, less heavy-handed Bioware stuff would be a nice start.

Bioware stuff is pretty cringe-worthy and I've always felt it was more tokenism than much else. The fact they basically use it as PR is also pretty eye-rolling.

This summarizes most of my opinion, although i'd admit i'm a bit socially malnourished and I really just am approaching this issue from the view as somebody who plays video games. I have no idea why people feel it's so important to push for representation. Our rights won't get any worse as maslows hierarchy of needs becomes less demanding globally.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

If people don't want gay characters to be special, or noteworthy there is one sure fire solution. More gay characters!

 

[Vigormortis]

I mean... I know I don't speak for all gay people, but I don't think it's frivolous. We're not well represented in media in general, and I think games are better when they include us.

This I agree with wholeheartedly.

"A forbidden romance between two souls the world has deemed blasphemous, can our two heroes overcome an oppressive society and prove that love conquers all?"

Come on, that's basically the plot of all romance novels, ever, it seems like we could add a fresh take on an old story. Or maybe fresh isn't the right word....hairy, yeah, that's it. A hairier take.

I dunno... Some might prefer the clean, shaven look.

<.<

Anyway, what you're saying is, we need a video game equivalent of Romeo and Julien, or perhaps Romea and Juliet.

I could get behind that.

And hey, when you promote your game, you list the good stuff. I'd rank "being socially proressive" up there with "immersive world" and "sold combat" as good things worth pointing out.

Well sure, but for some reason it just rings hollow when it's primarily in their advertising and PR material. That's probably just in my own perception, though. Even so, kudos to them for not being afraid to include such characters in a triple-A title.

Also, props to us for identifying misinterpretation and remaining civil during discussion. Wi-five.

Spoiler: Let's make it times two.

If people don't want gay characters to be special, or noteworthy there is one sure fire solution. More gay characters!

Also this.

Thank you.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Here's one: Gay characters that aren't automatically made romance options just because they're gay.

It's an attitude I've run into quite a lot in real life, the idea that because two people are both gay they must be in any way romantically compatible just because they're both interested in the same genitalia. It's not like that, and it weirdly bugs me how in every game that has a gay support character, if the game has romance options, the gay character will be one.

How about make it a touch more like reality where not every gay person will immediately want to jump the bones of any other gay person, and have a gay support character who just is not remotely fucking interested in you because you're just not their type?

Or because gaming is a power fantasy at heart, is "and everyone totally wants your D" just a fucking requirement whenever possible?

 

[Teoes]

As a straight white dude with short brown hair [sub]and ruggedly handsome features[/sub] am I allowed to pitch in with a simple "I just want fair and respectful representation of people of all forms, as appropriate to the story/setting"? Feels a little simplistic. So, uh, bit of both the first two I guess.

(Although, I'm not a woman, so maybe I actually have this completely wrong. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

No, you're not wrong. I'm pretty sure you're not a woman.

 

[Riotguards]

I mean... I know I don't speak for all gay people, but I don't think it's frivolous. We're not well represented in media in general, and I think games are better when they include us.

"A forbidden romance between two souls the world has deemed blasphemous, can our two heroes overcome an oppressive society and prove that love conquers all?"

Come on, that's basically the plot of all romance novels, ever, it seems like we could add a fresh take on an old story. Or maybe fresh isn't the right word....hairy, yeah, that's it. A hairier take.

i did say "game play, story and interesting characters" if the story is a romance about two gay, straight, etc then there's nothing wrong with it or if the game is a romance sim then again having options in romance is not what i would call frivolous

i honestly do not care if my character is straight, gay, etc just so long as they are interesting

 

[Someone Depressing]

I don't care if a game doesn't have many LGBT characters, but the way that it's crammed in needlessly by companies like Bioware, almost as is to say, "We're progressive! Isn't that awesome?" is just irritating, bordering on offensive, and those characters tend to be underdeveloped or just straight out annoying.

I think Obsidian handled it much better with New Vegas; Veronica and Arcade would passingly mention their homosexuality to you in asking, and I'm pretty sure you could seduce Arcade into the party, but there was none of the surprise gay sex that Dragon Age seems to have for no reason.

Also, Dragon Age 2's characters were pretty terrible, just for this reason. I tried to remain aromantic through the game because why not and I'm pretty sure I had sex with just about everybody, by accident. That, and I'm a bumbling idiot and dialogue trees are hard.

I suppose, ultimately, I want gay characters as people. Gay people. But, you know, having hobbies other than being oh so gay. Maybe have a few gay characters here and there. A sideplot about how the game's world views LGBT people, and maybe giving the player a chance to change that, or leave it to the status quo.

But having everyone be "flexible" or "only able to show interest in you if you show interest in them" (*cough* Bioware *cough*) isn't the way to go.

 

[oZode]

Can't say much on the topic due to being heterosexual [so I will not vote], however I will note LGBT individuals are really a small minority:

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/

So in theory a game could go entirely without having any gay character assuming fair representation of LGBT individuals means demographic correlation to real world statistics (such objective also would mean having female characters be the slight majority by the way... And many, many things to say about ethnicity) Although I know in RPGs the character count can get rather high, so it is no surprise there is the occasional gay character in a RPG since in a world with 300+ characters minor or major or NPC you'll have around 30 that have at some point sexual feelings for someone of the same sex, even if only 6 of which are actually gay and 5 of which being bisexual. In a RPG with 12 or so characters having one person being ambiguously bisexual or even homosexual is very believable, but if we are talking a game with 4-5 people 3 of the people or has a different sexuality chances are there is a LGBT slant to the game or an attempt to be more progressive than thou.

I haven't played any bioware games [beyond some star wars game when I was like, 6 or so... didn't understand how to play it at the time] mainly because I never played first mass effect and thought that you're meant to play all 3 and didn't wanna go buying them all [i'm not even sure if i'd go purchase a collection]. By now I don't want to buy games much in general anymore due to the time sink [hell I spent too much time writing this post as as], especially on console since I don't want to spend 500 dollars to play halo again. My family did that in 2001 and 2007 already as is. In short, I can't really comment on bioware's use of LGBTs and the only RPG in recent memory I played quite a bit is sky rim from three years ago which didn't really have much in the way of romance like bioware RPGs do. Yes you could get a companion, but companions generally seemed to me more as an NPC ally than a love interest [without mods].

To entertain i'll end this post with a question that will hopefully generate interesting responses.

Should an video game RPG have all characters be bisexual until proven otherwise?