Poll: Gender Identity

[Evil Moo]

...gender is what your mind is...

Which is my point. I feel like my mind doesn't have any relation to gender or sex (besides the obvious biological processes that formed it as it is being influenced by my being physically male, which is again biology not gender identity). I literally have no concept of gender that isn't either the biological or the cultural. Would I feel out of place in a female body? Hard to say for sure, but I don't see why I would from a purely identity based stand-point (though I would likely resent some of the anatomy being in the way). Do I feel out of place in my current body? Not especially, from a gender point of view, though I would quite happily be rid of any gender from myself, biological or otherwise. The whole thing seems like too much hassle and I'd rather not be involved. But as things are, I'll just carry on as is until I can become a brain in a jar.

I feel like dysphoria would be caused by conflicting elements of the biological sex (be it outward physical features, or internal processes like hormones or whatever else is going on in there) pushing someone into an uncomfortable area of the blurred grey space between the two 'normal' sexes, and part of the body is saying one thing while others are contradicting it. There is no elusive internal identity there, just biological processes, chemicals and outward physical manifestations of them. Now maybe I'm just ignorant of what's really going on (almost certainly in fact, given that I'm far too lazy to do proper research on this) and there is some identity separate from biological sex, in which case, I either don't have one, or it only manifests itself in cases of conflict (which doesn't make sense from the way people talk about gender identity as if it is something that everyone has in some vaguely tangible form).

I hope my rambling rationalisations are not offensive, and I certainly don't intend to imply that such issues don't exist or aren't potentially serious. I just dislike not being able to properly understand things like this.

Captcha: 'in a box' dammit Captcha, am I really that isolated?

 

[DarkRawen]

I clicked other because none of my categories are on the list.

I am perfectly willing to accept as a human being and friend, anyone who wishes to identify with whatever gender or sub gender they wish.

But as far as I am concerned there are two genders and a rare third type which is neither, meaning the individual has the option to choose or not to choose.

Male and Female and hermaphrodites (someone with malformed genitals).

In my opinion the idea of a male being trapped in a female body (or the reverse) is ridiculous, it goes against the natural order which created you as you are, and even religion where you are defying a deities will for you to be born as you are. I think the ability to accept yourself for who and what you are is far more impressive than surgery, that will cause you to become something which is neither male nor female. Unless you are already rather androgynous 99 times out of 100 the surgery will make you look like a cross dresser (in my opinion) and people will be able to spot you. I dont think being a woman in a mans body means you are a mistake. I think it means you are gay and should spend less on surgery and more time on finding a gay male to be with.

This is just my opinion and as I said, I accept it is just that! an opinion, and others may feel strongly and disagree with me. As I said the fact of who they are would not turn me against them I am willing to befriend anyone no matter what we disagree on. And if surgery will make you happy then thats whats going to happen, I am just an advocate of self acceptance.

Disclaimer I am drunk and waiting to go out for a birthday party, and am killing time on the escapist. This is my actual opinion tho.

Well, I, obviously, disagree.

Firstly, who you want to have sex with doesn't define your gender identity. :/ Secondly, it's not a confidence issue, and far from every trans gendered person goes through an operation. I'd say more, but really, the point is; that's your opinion, and while you have the right to have that opinion, it does sound like you've not tried to view it from anyone else's perspective, and that makes me sadz (Not really, but lets roll with that)

Refuse to answer the poll. My apologies if that makes it inappropriate for me to comment (I generally categorize gender as 'personal information' and I'm not big on putting personal info on surveys on the internet when I can avoid it). Side question though:

Any thoughts as to why the trans community is overwhelmingly (at least as far as public image is concerned) trans female as opposed to trans male? The standard story suggests that 'female' is a very problematic identity and is in the subordinate position to the 'male' identity. Rationally, it would seem to follow that people would want to be recognized as a member of the dominant identity, but that doesn't seem to be how it works out in practice. (Jerry Seinfeld voice) What's the deal with that?

It's biologically easier to make a transwoman than a transman.

There's also the issue that people don't choose what to identify as. Even if we accept the premise that male privilege is specifically desirable, We'[re talking about some fairly significant changes to go through.

However, I would think that part of it is that it's "easier" to be a trans man without actually saying you are one or even admitting that to yourself. I went for almost 19 years never even considering it, because I could dress, act and identify as a male without anything hindering it. I can wear a suit if I want to, I can refuse to wear makeup if I feel like it, and most media still have the male character for someone to identify with. Basically, it's easier to be the tomboy without anyone questioning it than it is to be a feminine man.

There is also that.

Also, trans males have a chance of going bald, that's some scary stuff >_>

More seriously, it might be the family I was raised in, or the country, or the society, or whatever, but the reason I went on for so long without realizing was that I really didn't know about the "male" privilege as a thing before I started hearing about it outside the people I spoke with. I've had men who wash and cook and women who builds and drive trucks and pay the bills around me for too long, I suppose. Even so, I've acted as a guy for as long as I can remember, and even as a child I was happier when I was mistaken for a guy.

Basically, I agree with the "It's not a choice. It's just how it is," thing. Not to mention, identifying as anything that's not your physical sex kinda removes most privileges. :/

 

[Something Amyss]

Would I feel out of place in a female body?

I mean, you could find out through HRT. If you have no sense of internal identity, then that would do nothing. But if not, it would have the impact that being trans has on...well, trans people.

I wouldn't recommend this, but it's possible to know without "having a female body." I'd also note we tend as humans not to be aware of things until something's wrong.

I feel like dysphoria would be caused by conflicting elements of the biological sex (be it outward physical features, or internal processes like hormones or whatever else is going on in there) pushing someone into an uncomfortable area of the blurred grey space between the two 'normal' sexes, and part of the body is saying one thing while others are contradicting it.

Well, no. The hormones (and I'm not sure what your other factors are) are in agreement with the body. This is why hormone replacement therapy has a stabilising effect on the person suffering from dysphoria. Even before any secondary sexual characteristics show up.

And since there are actual "in between" people, it makes no sense to conflate them with people suffering from gender dysphoria.

 

[Drake the Dragonheart]

I was also told I'm "not a real girl" because I wax instead of shaving. Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard, but there you go.

I envy you.

"Do you think we'll ever walk on the sun? I know it's really hot but what if they like, go in the winter when it's only like 30 degrees?"

Yahoo answers makes me weep for humanity.

I was also told I'm "not a real girl" because I wax instead of shaving. Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard, but there you go.

Umm...

Seriously?

I mean, that'd be like someone telling me I'm "not a real man" for shaving my face with disposable razors instead of the ones where you change out the blades.

Please tell me you asked the numbskull in question to explain themselves.

Wait, what? You're not using a straight razor? And you call yourself a man!

Hey wait a second, I use an electric razor. What does that mean for me?

You're a... fembot? I dunno man, this seems kind of silly to me.

What?!? Shaving with an electric razor is the manliest way to shave! I will have none of this hooliganism!

 

[Evil Moo]

Would I feel out of place in a female body?

I mean, you could find out through HRT. If you have no sense of internal identity, then that would do nothing. But if not, it would have the impact that being trans has on...well, trans people.

I wouldn't recommend this, but it's possible to know without "having a female body." I'd also note we tend as humans not to be aware of things until something's wrong.

While I am somewhat tempted to put this to the test ("For science!" and all that), something as drastic as HRT seems like it would be at least a little traumatic on the system regardless. I think experimenting on myself is a little beyond the line I'm willing to cross to satisfy my curiosity. Hmmm... I wonder if hormone removal therapy is a thing... Would probably break some vital system I'm sure...

I feel like dysphoria would be caused by conflicting elements of the biological sex (be it outward physical features, or internal processes like hormones or whatever else is going on in there) pushing someone into an uncomfortable area of the blurred grey space between the two 'normal' sexes, and part of the body is saying one thing while others are contradicting it.

Well, no. The hormones (and I'm not sure what your other factors are) are in agreement with the body. This is why hormone replacement therapy has a stabilising effect on the person suffering from dysphoria. Even before any secondary sexual characteristics show up.

And since there are actual "in between" people, it makes no sense to conflate them with people suffering from gender dysphoria.

My ignorance in biology limits my knowledge of what other factors there are. Really, there, I would be referring to subtle interactions between internal systems like hormones and say, genetics/epigenetics for example. Factors that we might not have even discovered yet as well. But yeah, that's mostly speculation for the sake of my own rationalisation.

To further rationalise, hormone replacement would presumably work because part(s) of the body are expecting hormones that they aren't getting. Again I have very little idea what I'm talking about so I'm probably talking rubbish.

Perhaps it is more the terminology I disagree with, 'identity' and 'what I identify as' being framed very much as a conscious process rather than an underlying biological process which might cause such feelings to become prominent. Someone made the parallel between this subject and phantom limbs in a similar thread here a while ago, which makes more sense to me. That would be someone's body not recognising that a limb is not present, rather than the individual identifying as someone with whatever limb they don't have, which seems odd. The conditions are probably too different to compare like this, but oh well.

Perhaps there are different degrees of 'in betweenness' that affect people in different ways? *shrug*

 

[Canadamus Prime]

"cisgendered" what the fuck does that mean? *looks it up* Oh. I'm never EVER going to use that term. I am male, I was born male, and I identify as male.

 

[Nimcha]

I refer to myself as 'female'. I do not feel the need to specifically state I am not trans. I feel the cis label is counter-productive since it only further devides the people who do itendify as trans from the rest of the world.

A friend of mine identifies as female too, and only discloses the fact or her being transitioned to people she chooses herself. I do not feel there is inherently any difference between my gender identity and hers, so that is why I do not want to identify as 'cis'.

Labels do exist for a reason. Some things are simply objective, and even if your friend doesn't like the descriptor "trans", she still falls under it. The biggest problem I have with labels is that they're too often misused, not thorough enough, or rejected because "labels are bad because reasons." Its an objective thing, and while having an objection with the label itself is fair, being opposed to labels in general is counter-productive, illogical.

Good thing that I didn't say any of that then! Labels are very useful indeed. I do actually, as you say, have an objection to the cis label itself. I've literally said that. You're arguing a strawman here, we pretty much agree on labels in general.

 

[Nimcha]

That's... completely different.

It's always completely different.

First, sexuality is independent of gender. I am first and foremost female.

Okay, that doesn't have anything to do with why you would choose a divisive label. Yes, sex and gender identity are different. So what? What has that got to do with the question at hand?

Second, people should be free to choose their own label. If someone identifies as female or male or intersex or whatever, I will respect that.

That also doesn't answer the question of why you would choose a divisive label, only that you are free to choose. Which I don't think anyone's contesting. You argued that the cis label was not productive and that it was divisive. Dividing people on sexuality works on the same level, by any apparent reasoning I can arrive at on your behalf. You've argued they're completely different, but not made a case for why or answered why you would actually choose to counterproductively and divisively label yourself. Now, is it your right? Absolutely. But that doesn't address anything of relevance here.

I've already answered that in another post. I do not feel the need to divide further since I don't think there is much of a difference between me and, for example, my aforementioned friend. Or can my friend now identify as cis as well, since her biological sex (visible parts anyway) and gender identity now do line up as desired? Apparently not, because cis implies you had those things at birth. So even though me and my friend are now identical in both gender identity and sexual 'parts' there is still supposed to be a different label for both of us. I object to that.

As for the gay label, that part's not gonna change. There is actually a big difference between me and a heterosexual female. Hence the label.

 

[mitchell271]

A gaming site is mostly heteronormative males. And no one is surprised.
Cool that we have some diversity though!

 

[Nimcha]

Good thing that I didn't say any of that then! Labels are very useful indeed. I do actually, as you say, have an objection to the cis label itself. I've literally said that. You're arguing a strawman here, we pretty much agree on labels in general.

Then why would you ever have a problem with the label "cis"? Its a simple descriptor label, no different from "brunette", "student", "hemophiliac", or "heterosexual".

I've explained in an earlier post. It creates extra division where there sometimes is, for all intents and purposes, none.

 

[Grintwist]

I came out about a year ago as transgender mtf, not much to say other than that though.

 

[Evil Moo]

I am biologically male, so to identify as anything else would simply be inaccurate. At the same time I don't feel like classing myself as cis-male, as it would seem to imply that there is some secondary characteristic that can either align with or against the biological traits. I don't feel this to be the case.

Feel against that all you like, there's evidence that gender identity resides in the brain, and that the gender identity of the brain can be misalligned with the body's sex.

So, would I be right in saying that it is the brain (or part of it) developing with a bias towards one sex? Sounds an awful lot like biological sex to me. Why separate out the gender identity bit as if it is some special, non-biological element? To me, saying the gender identity of the brain can be misaligned with the body's sex, is exactly the same as saying: a part of the body's sex can be misaligned with the rest of the body's sex, which makes much more sense to me.

I am a consciousness in a male body. Is my consciousness supposed to be gendered in some way?

Your consciousness is, in part, a manifestation of physical characteristics of your brain. Things that physically alter your brain affect your mind, period. One's mind isn't separated from physical influence, and people started abandoning that concept back in the 1800s.

Of course the state of my brain affects my mind. But again, the physical state of my brain would surely be the root of the issue and still firmly biological. The resultant conscious thoughts, merely a symptom of sorts, not dependant on some vague and floaty gender sense that is somehow independent of the body.

Bleh.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Cis? What the hell is... Uh, not sure, skip.

Trans. nope: does not apply.

Aaaaand... Other... did I miss something? What the hell kind of choices are those!?

I gotta be missing something here. Quick, self! To the New Tab!

[small]...googling...[/small]

[small]...wiki link...[/small]

[small]...reading...[/small]


Oh! Ok, I get it now.

Cis male then, I guess. Still sounds weird to me. Sis male, kiss male? Regardless of which way is the proper way to pronounce that word correctly, I'm finding it to be a rather awkward word to say out loud. Or is it supposed to be "chis" where the c takes the sound of ch like ciao?

To answer the Poll, I[small],male,[/b] feel appropriate in my upbringing and how it lines up with my sense of self and my sexuality so the.

 

[Silvanus]

I've explained in an earlier post. It creates extra division where there sometimes is, for all intents and purposes, none.

It may be relevant in a medical scenario. Or, it may be relevant if statistical research is being carried out. Nobody's asking that people describe themselves in certain ways in the real world-- that's up to you.

Worth it...... Fucks given = zero

Careful, Cloud, you could cut yourself on all that edge.

 

[Evil Moo]

[insert post here]

So once again it boils down to semantics. I've never liked the whole gender isn't sex thing. I swear every dictionary I look at says otherwise. Not to mention every use of the word I've heard up until the last year or so, and even then only on the internet and mostly on this forum, is the difference maintained. But this is an argument I've had too many times, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Silvanus]

I swear every dictionary I look at says otherwise. Not to mention every use of the word I've heard up until the last year or so, and even then only on the internet and mostly on this forum, is the difference maintained.

Well, the difference is also maintained by the World Health Organisation [http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/] and the A.P.A. [http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf]. Remember that dictionaries are primarily guidebooks on general usage; they are not ultimate authorities.

 

[Vault101]

Well actually the men are not caring thing is innate (not saying that man can't be good caregivers, there are many cases where men are very talented at it actually, just that it doesn't come as natural to them). I've seen a study where a random group of men and a random group of women were said to wait in two rooms, with a twist; the rooms were filled with babies in beds. Being babies, naturally, they started crying in both cases and while the men just stood there awkwardly waiting to be relieved from this nightmare the women started picking up the babies and comforting them. A mother will also be woken up by their child crying while the dad just stays asleep.
.

whose to say that was fully inate? if you don't have mcuh expereince with babies (guys don't get encouraged to fwan over and hold others babies) then you sure as hell don't want anything to do with them....I probably wouldn't have done that...

also I used to be weirded out by babies and not know what to do with them, that is untill my sister had one and I spent a lot of time around her...I wouldn't hold her unless I absolutly have too but I don't feel like I'm going to break her just by looking at her

 

[Vault101]

A perfectly fine point except that all the arguments on here are so broad. It's just ''rabble rabble gender roles are bad''. How are they? When are they? Give me specific examples of when this is a barrier for someone. I am generally interested.
.

becauce they place preassures and expectations on you based only on your gender

-guys can't be care givers
-guys cant show emotions beyond anger
-guys can't be feminine at all in their mannerisms
-guys have to be strong
-guys have to earn all the money
-guys have to have lots of and lots of sex

-women can't be strong
-women are dirven by their emotions
-women are bad at math/science
-women want babies
-so many babies
-BABIES!!!!
-women must be feminine
-women can't have too much sex otherwise theyre sluts
-women can't not want sex otherwise theyre fridgid

all of thease are bullshit, and if you don't fit into gender roles well...youre gonna have a hard time

 

[Vault101]

They don't? Seems pretty normal around where I live (though the fawning is mostly done by other parents). Fair enough, cultural differences I guess...

well they kinda do but it seems different with women...they go nuts over them like theyre free candy....to be fair though babies can be really cute

 

[Something Amyss]

Also, trans males have a chance of going bald, that's some scary stuff >_>

Try being a transwoman with hair loss.

More seriously, it might be the family I was raised in, or the country, or the society, or whatever, but the reason I went on for so long without realizing was that I really didn't know about the "male" privilege as a thing before I started hearing about it outside the people I spoke with. I've had men who wash and cook and women who builds and drive trucks and pay the bills around me for too long, I suppose. Even so, I've acted as a guy for as long as I can remember, and even as a child I was happier when I was mistaken for a guy.

I grew up on the corner of redneck and hippie, so I can sort of see it happening both ways. Hell, sometimes I could sort of see it at the same time.

Basically, I agree with the "It's not a choice. It's just how it is," thing. Not to mention, identifying as anything that's not your physical sex kinda removes most privileges. :/

Yeah, I mean, I don't know firsthand, but I seriously doubt saying "No, actually, I'm a dude. Ignore the bits I was born with" would in any way make things easier. Or grant more privilege.

To be frank, I kind of wish it was a choice, because then I could totally choose to not feel this way.