Poll: Gender recognition offence
- Thread starter Politrukk
- Start date
They and them are perfectly fine as singular pronouns, people use them correctly all the time in the singular when they don't know a person's physical sex. For some reason this only becomes an issue when a person's physical sex is discovered when physical sex is conflicting to gender identity. Their, them, themselves, and they are all correct in singular use as gender neutral pronouns.F-I-D-O said:
Quote because of relevance and because this really is grade school grammar:
MarsAtlas said:
If someone looks like a male, I'm going to call them one. If someone looks like a female, I'm going to call them one. If they get offended, it's not my fault. If they don't like being referred to as a specific gender, it's up to them to explain that.
"They" can be used as a singular pronoun when some aspect of the person is unknown, usually gender. The word "you" used to be plural only (when we still used "thou/thee" I think), which is why we use plural verbs (you/we/they "are") with it. Language evolves, and a lot of the time, you just have to roll with it.
I treat it like the German "Sie." It means "you" in a formal sense and is plural and singular.
EDIT - Oh, you all realise English DOES have a singular gender-neutral pronoun, don't you ("it")? However its use to refer to a person is generally considered offensive and towards a non-binary/trans/whatever person, it'd be even more offensive. I don't see why we can't change that attitude towards "it" though.
"They" can be used as a singular pronoun when some aspect of the person is unknown, usually gender. The word "you" used to be plural only (when we still used "thou/thee" I think), which is why we use plural verbs (you/we/they "are") with it. Language evolves, and a lot of the time, you just have to roll with it.
I treat it like the German "Sie." It means "you" in a formal sense and is plural and singular.
EDIT - Oh, you all realise English DOES have a singular gender-neutral pronoun, don't you ("it")? However its use to refer to a person is generally considered offensive and towards a non-binary/trans/whatever person, it'd be even more offensive. I don't see why we can't change that attitude towards "it" though.
Well then it seems you ran into a person who just happens to be a total areshole. Trans folk, both binary and non-binary, like every other group of humans are not immune from being aresholes. If they're going out of their way to harass you, then they obviously have issues deeper than just the fact that you misgendered them. Some people do use being trans as a shield for having aPolitrukk said:
The problem with using "it" for any non-binary person is because "it" is used as a dehumanizing slur, generally by people who also call trans folk "freaks", "tranny", "trannies", "perverts" and insinuate mental illness. Mostly because transphobes like to describe trans men and especially trans women as "it", using the word "it" as a means of exclusion and dehumanization. We're not going to change the attitude on the word "it" used in the context of referring to a trans person, just like how we're never going to change the attitudes towards the word "******".Creator002 said:
Could not have asked for a better opportunity. Here:Creator002 said:
There are various methods by which you may achieve ignominy and shame. By murdering a large and respected family in cold blood and afterward depositing their bodies in the water companies' reservoir, you will gain much unpopularity in the neighborhood of your crime, and even robbing a church will get you cordially disliked, especially by the vicar. But if you desire to drain to the dregs the fullest cup of scorn and hatred that a fellow human creature can pour out for you, let a young mother hear you call dear baby "it."
Someone wants to be known as non-binary? No thanks, I'm not putting up with that.
Misgendering is an irritation, but in the end, that's that persons problem. I'm a man, I've been a man my whole life, and some people used to think I was a girl because of my long hair, and that bugged the crap out of me when I was a kid. Then I hit puberty and nobody mistook me for a girl again. Sometimes people need to be corrected, other times the person correcting them is being stupid. The latter is usually true when people start using made-up words and insisting you do the same in order to not offend them.
Misgendering is an irritation, but in the end, that's that persons problem. I'm a man, I've been a man my whole life, and some people used to think I was a girl because of my long hair, and that bugged the crap out of me when I was a kid. Then I hit puberty and nobody mistook me for a girl again. Sometimes people need to be corrected, other times the person correcting them is being stupid. The latter is usually true when people start using made-up words and insisting you do the same in order to not offend them.
I know. I said that, but in not as many words nor with further clarification. Didn't think I had to.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Well, I guess we shouldn't even try then.
What? It may be because I already call babies "it," but beyond it being an offensive term to a human (which I said), I don't get what you're saying.DoPo said:
Being that I'm trans and generally pass, I only get misgendered by people who know I'm trans, when it's a stranger it's because I was outed. Generally strangers who misgender me because I was outed, do so as a method of refusing my gender identity, as a means of insulting me for having the sheer gall to be myself. When someone starts using misgendering as a weapon it is most certainly not the problem of person being harassed, it's the problem of the person doing the harassing.GalanDun said:
"They" and "them" are standard words in the English language, some people erroneously think using those words as singular pronouns are bad grammar, but that's not actually true. Also all words are made up, we didn't just suddenly have language as part of our natural abilities, languages are entirely conjured from imagination, or made up, as you put it. Just because someone, or a group of someones wants to add a word to the language, doesn't make the word invalid. We constantly add new words to language, especially English, often times the words are entirely new, just as often as they're stolen from another language.
Well apparently I had an issue gleaning that from your post, so the clarification there might help others.Creator002 said:
That's possibly a valid solution, because trying to change attitudes to a word that's universally hated in a some contexts, or sometimes all contexts... That's not gonna please most people, nor will they appreciate your stance.Creator002 said:
My issue is that I structure sentences about singular people with "is." It's a habit. I can say "she is doing x." But if I focus on using the right pronount, I'm so happy that I use "They" instead of she I forget the following "...is doing x." So I say "They is doing x." Notice I never said that "They" can't be used as a singular pronoun.KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I said I don't comfortably use them due to my habits of dialogue. The example sentence "felt" strange to say.
"They" also feels impersonal to me, and I don't use it when referring to singular people unless they specifically ask.
In addition, I never liked the vagueness of "they". In writing, it's irritating because it's unclear and requires extra context to clarify. In speech it works better because of dialogue context, but again, it feels impersonal to me, and missing a sentence in the conversation causes issues. For the same reasons, I don't describe people as "it." When I think "they" I think two+ people. For my usage, it's 99% a plural pronoun (which is the primary usage). As a gender neutral pronoun, I felt it was a cop out to use the "just vague enough" plural pronoun as a single pronoun. Using "They" for singular organizations make more sense because those inherently represent a group of people.
The topic was about how we feel about various pronouns/naming conventions and using "They" for any individual, regardless of identity, doesn't make sense to me. Something in my head doesn't connect when a person says "refer to me as they/them/etc," leading to wonderful crimes against spoken language. As someone who already had issues speaking, I learn names instead.
Well I must have misread the previous post, being I thought you were specifically saying that it was entirely bad grammar.F-I-D-O said:
I understand how you feel there, to be honest I've uncomfortable with using "they" and "them" as a singular pronoun. Less so in writing, but more so in speech, it still kinda trips me up to refer to a singular person as "they" and "them". Still when someone asks me to use gender-neutral pronouns in person, I'll do it out of politeness. Well also along with the fact that the few people I know who prefer gender-neutral pronouns, also know I'm trans, which puts them in a great place to out me through misgendering, if I were to choose to intentionally misgender them. Still I understand how you feel. Just to me, it's one of those things one should put up with, just because it's the polite, do unto others sort of thing. Also arguing with someone about their preferred pronouns is an exercise in futility, that often makes the person refusing to accommodate the other look like a jerk.
I'm fine with people being called by their preference, however odd it might seem to me. Hell I know I'm odd at times. All I care about is if I get something wrong about a person without having any obvious sign that what I said was wrong they don't immediately jump down my throat. Its at that point I stop caring and walk away. I'm a firm believer that people are allowed to be wrong about something that isn't obvious. I'm also a firm believer in civil discourse and do my best to be civil.
Well, no, you generally can't tell that someone is non-binary just by looking at them. It's common to make a mistake if you define gender only by looking at their clothes and body shape. If you make a mistake and the person corrects you, you apologize briefly and continue referring to them in a correct way. That's literally it. I have never seen someone lose their mind over an honest mistake or an accidental slip.Politrukk said:
However, I find it weird in general that we put gender on clothes and overall presentation. Even though I'm a cis woman, I often express myself in a way that is traditionally masculine. I don't use makeup, I often wear baggy clothes that hide my body shape, I don't have explicitly feminine facial structure, unless I try hard, my boobs won't be seen, I don't "sit like a lady" and so on and so on. I've had people misgender me, especially when I was younger and often looked like a pre-teen boy. So, I'm not particularly bothered or surprised that people can't tell someone's gender just by looking at them. It happens to all genders.
So physical aspects and aesthetics are not exactly a dead giveaway when it comes to someone's gender. They very often never are, not just for non-binary people. I think we should all relax when it comes to gender. Not knowing someone's gender is not a big deal. If you can't tell by looking at someone, chill. It's not that important. If you're not sure, ask. If you make a mistake, apologize honestly and don't dismiss the person's answer. No one expects you to be able to tell someone's gender by glancing at them once. You'll guess correctly many times, but you'll also make mistakes and you'll be corrected. That's it. I don't see where's the fuss.
If someone is being obnoxious because you made a mistake, they're being an asshole. But don't take your 'revenge' by misgendering them on purpose. It makes their anger valid and puts your initial mistake into question.
If, for some reason, I must refer to someone as a gender pronoun, I will default to visible evidence. If I am corrected reasonably, I will apologize and correct, making sure to remember in the future if possible. If I am corrected unreasonably (through diatribe or vitriol), I will make every effort to refer to the person by name only, and avoid them as much as possible, as I have very little patience for histrionic adult-children.
For me, it's the same as pronouncing someone's name correctly: it's a matter of being respectful enough to make a notation in your mind about the person. A mistake or two can be expected, especially if the subject (gender or name) is confusing in regards to someone's baseline. In the circumstance, again, polite correction goes a long way to securing the respect needed to create the notation.
And yes, I understand that someone may have had to correct other people MANY times in the past. It can be frustrating to have to explain yourself over and over again, but remember to not take that frustration out on someone who's mistake is created by unfamiliarity rather than disrespect.
For me, it's the same as pronouncing someone's name correctly: it's a matter of being respectful enough to make a notation in your mind about the person. A mistake or two can be expected, especially if the subject (gender or name) is confusing in regards to someone's baseline. In the circumstance, again, polite correction goes a long way to securing the respect needed to create the notation.
And yes, I understand that someone may have had to correct other people MANY times in the past. It can be frustrating to have to explain yourself over and over again, but remember to not take that frustration out on someone who's mistake is created by unfamiliarity rather than disrespect.
People who taking the time to look distinctively one gender are doing so for the purpose of looking the part. This is not an accident or simple choice of attire. It's not transvestitism or women wearing pants. It's going out of their way to appear masculine or feminine by design. Ergo, they can't fault us.
There's a very easy way to avoid toeing the gender lines, it's worked for me all my life. Just refer to everyone as "You." Works wonders
Honestly, I'm in the camp of "If you look like a gender, you shouldn't be offended when strangers confuse you" If you want to be noticed as a certain gender (especially if that gender conflicts with your natural sex) you should uphold yourself to the standards of beauty of that gender. Men-to-Ladies should bare minimum get rid of facial hair, likewise Women-to-dudes should probably not wear dresses. Unless of course you're a Woman who believes himself to be a man who wants to dress like a woman. which would be a Transman Transvestite, I think?
I guess I don't have too much of a stake in this though, being a cis male. Whenever someone does accidentally calls me a girl it makes me feel pretty though, so that's nice.
Honestly, I'm in the camp of "If you look like a gender, you shouldn't be offended when strangers confuse you" If you want to be noticed as a certain gender (especially if that gender conflicts with your natural sex) you should uphold yourself to the standards of beauty of that gender. Men-to-Ladies should bare minimum get rid of facial hair, likewise Women-to-dudes should probably not wear dresses. Unless of course you're a Woman who believes himself to be a man who wants to dress like a woman. which would be a Transman Transvestite, I think?
I guess I don't have too much of a stake in this though, being a cis male. Whenever someone does accidentally calls me a girl it makes me feel pretty though, so that's nice.