Poll: Happiness

[mcgooch]

Do you think people have the right to be happy? Now before you click yes because it seems like the obvious choice think about it. Today mankind enjoys a better standard of life than ever and yet more people are suffering from depression than ever before. It is possible that this is due to better diagnosing. However another theory is that people now expect to be happy so being unhappy causes an even deeper sadness. In years gone by people didn't expect to be happy, they expected to work hard, struggle to survive and then die. Thus when they weren't happy it wasn't a huge shock. Today people grow up expecting they will be happy all their lives. The truth is that they won't be. I believe happiness is something one must work to acheive not something you deserve by birth. The American constitution includes the right to the "pursuit of happiness". I agree with that; happiness is something you should pursue not expect.

What do you think?

 

[The Man Who Is Thursday]

I'm a bit confused by the poll options, but I guess I would say that generally the anticipation of happiness seems to be better than actually achieving whatever it is you thought would make you happy. It's kind of backwards.

So I guess I'd say it's more like a pursuit.

 

[SimuLord]

People have the right to the pursuit of happiness (indeed, it is an inalienable right given by the gods to man as their gift), but nobody has such an inherent right to be happy that any other's enjoyment of life should be impaired or otherwise taken from him in a sort of joy welfare.

 

[SimuLord]

I'm a bit confused by the poll options, but I guess I would say that generally the anticipation of happiness seems to be better than actually achieving whatever it is you thought would make you happy. It's kind of backwards.

So I guess I'd say it's more like a pursuit.

I think of it more like a sports team during a long season. If you dwell on any one victory for too long, you'll not be hungry enough to try to grab another one. This holds true even for those who win championships (or their equivalent in non-sporting life, say, the big promotion, the graduation with honors, or what-have-you.) Even Michael Jordan wasn't satisfied with six championship rings---he had to launch his ill-fated comeback in Washington because he couldn't be away from the chase.

 

[The Man Who Is Thursday]

I think of it more like a sports team during a long season. If you dwell on any one victory for too long, you'll not be hungry enough to try to grab another one. This holds true even for those who win championships (or their equivalent in non-sporting life, say, the big promotion, the graduation with honors, or what-have-you.) Even Michael Jordan wasn't satisfied with six championship rings---he had to launch his ill-fated comeback in Washington because he couldn't be away from the chase.

Sports seems like a good analogy for it, I like your comparison to MJ. If he's not satisfied with six championships then what will satisfy him?

And a more pertinent question: what the hell will satisfy Manny Ramirez? He seems to have just shot down another offer.

 

[RavingPenguin]

I dont know if something that can be attained from work. For me happiness has always been a state of mind, where contentment and joy intermingle. I dont really know how to define it other than, well, happiness. I believe its a mindset rather than something you have to work for.

 

[SimuLord]

I think of it more like a sports team during a long season. If you dwell on any one victory for too long, you'll not be hungry enough to try to grab another one. This holds true even for those who win championships (or their equivalent in non-sporting life, say, the big promotion, the graduation with honors, or what-have-you.) Even Michael Jordan wasn't satisfied with six championship rings---he had to launch his ill-fated comeback in Washington because he couldn't be away from the chase.

Sports seems like a good analogy for it, I like your comparison to MJ. If he's not satisfied with six championships then what will satisfy him?

And a more pertinent question: what the hell will satisfy Manny Ramirez? He seems to have just shot down another offer.

Manny never realized how good he had it in Boston; that weasel asshole Scott Boras (funny how Boras seems to be behind most of the evil in MLB, at least the evil not caused by Bud Selig, Gene Orza, and Donald Fehr) talked Manny into thinking the Red Sox organization was screwing him so he could extort some other team and fatten his own wallet.

Also, as more than a few folks pointed out, Manny had a 1.063 OPS in July '08 when he was supposedly "tanking" to force a trade. Putting up Babe Ruth-like numbers is "tanking"? Also, as Bill Simmons pointed out, it's probably a safe bet that Manny wasn't on steroids because he's way too much of a childlike space cadet to keep to a steroid regimen.

But I think we're getting off subject here.

 

[mcgooch]

I'm a bit confused by the poll options, but I guess I would say that generally the anticipation of happiness seems to be better than actually achieving whatever it is you thought would make you happy. It's kind of backwards.

So I guess I'd say it's more like a pursuit.

Sorry if I've not been clear. I will edit the poll if you have any suggestions for improvement. I had a bit of trouble deciding how to word it and was afraid I might confuse people.

I agree that the race itself can be more enjoyable than the prize at the end.

 

[The Man Who Is Thursday]

Sports seems like a good analogy for it, I like your comparison to MJ. If he's not satisfied with six championships then what will satisfy him?

And a more pertinent question: what the hell will satisfy Manny Ramirez? He seems to have just shot down another offer.

Manny never realized how good he had it in Boston; that weasel asshole Scott Boras (funny how Boras seems to be behind most of the evil in MLB, at least the evil not caused by Bud Selig, Gene Orza, and Donald Fehr) talked Manny into thinking the Red Sox organization was screwing him so he could extort some other team and fatten his own wallet.

Also, as more than a few folks pointed out, Manny had a 1.063 OPS in July '08 when he was supposedly "tanking" to force a trade. Putting up Babe Ruth-like numbers is "tanking"? Also, as Bill Simmons pointed out, it's probably a safe bet that Manny wasn't on steroids because he's way too much of a childlike space cadet to keep to a steroid regimen.

But I think we're getting off subject here.

I think it could be relevant to the conversation. It's like...the pursuit of money. I've always wondered what the difference between 22 million and 25 million dollars is. How can you even tell if you have that much money? Manny turned down a second year option for 22, presumably so the Dodgers would match the first year of 25 (I say this because it's a guess).

But really? Why does he (or any athlete in this position) need even more money? Is it similar to MJ needing seven championships? Or do they just feel like if they get just a *little bit* more they'll be satisfied?

I suppose this goes for all of us who aim for promotions or winning the lottery, etc. Getting more cash never seems to work, which is why I think it's more of a pursuit.

There, I tried to make it on-topic.

PS: About Boras, I saw a funny thing on ESPN.com where DJ Gallo said that Boras kept sneaking up on him because his reflection doesn't show up in mirrors. I found it hilarious.

 

[Larenxis]

I go beyond saying we have a right to pursue happiness. We can do better. I make other people happy because I believe they have the right to be, and I'm gonna do what I can while maintaining my own happiness. We can't be happy all the time, and we shouldn't want that, but we should be happy as much as convenient and comfortable.

 

[SimuLord]

I think it could be relevant to the conversation. It's like...the pursuit of money. I've always wondered what the difference between 22 million and 25 million dollars is. How can you even tell if you have that much money? Manny turned down a second year option for 22, presumably so the Dodgers would match the first year of 25 (I say this because it's a guess).

But really? Why does he (or any athlete in this position) need even more money? Is it similar to MJ needing seven championships? Or do they just feel like if they get just a *little bit* more they'll be satisfied?

I suppose this goes for all of us who aim for promotions or winning the lottery, etc. Getting more cash never seems to work, which is why I think it's more of a pursuit.

There, I tried to make it on-topic.

PS: About Boras, I saw a funny thing on ESPN.com where DJ Gallo said that Boras kept sneaking up on him because his reflection doesn't show up in mirrors. I found it hilarious.

One of the things I've noticed over the past few years is that I was never satisfied with the rat race...it was worse than a drug addiction (and as someone who had a drug problem for eight years, that metaphor is not tossed about lightly.) The trouble was, the "high" of accomplishing something in a soulless corporate job was utterly empty. I was killing myself for a reward that was hardly worth waking up in the morning to go out and get.

One nice thing about getting my ass fired from the bank job last August is that the house has been forced by necessity to cut back our spending to levels that I'm personally quite happy with, and I've been trying to explain to my wife that even if I get a nice job paying $75K or more (I'm going for a CPA certification, which pays delightful salaries), I still have every intention of setting a budget of no more than $2000 a month in total spending because I hate materialistic grasping and consumption---always have. I figure that at some point in that theoretical future I'm going to have to consider having my paychecks deposited directly into a savings or investment account so it looks like we have less money than we do just so I can explain why we're on such a tight budget.

This brings a new wrinkle into the equation---it is quite easy for an individual to identify what makes him happy and design his life around the achievement of those goals, but what happens when a marriage comes into play and expectations of some sort of forward progress begin to enter into it? What if in the course of providing for his family in a traditional male role, a man loses sight of what makes himself happy and ends up miserable? I'd read an article in a magazine (I think it was Men's Health) a few years back that identified the fastest-growing demographic for suicide as men between 28 and 35, the demo with the house and the kids and the white picket fences, who look at their lives and think "is this really it? This is what I worked so hard for?" and splatter their brains all over the back wall of the garage.

 

[Sane Man]

No, you have absolutely no right to BE happy, but you have the right to pursue it. The difference is huge.

There is no guarantee in life that should entitle you to be happy. It is not the government's place to make you happy. However, the right to pursue whatever makes you happy as long as it does not interfere with another's universal rights is what we have been given as Americans and all people should have. If you happen to obtain happiness, you have to do it for yourself or have another out of their own volition help you achieve it.

But you have no entitlement to BE happy from the start, otherwise when is the government going to pony up for my McMansion or muscle car?

 

[Sweep117]

I think both options A and B are correct. We have a right to be happy but happiness doesn't just come by itself. We have to pursue it. It doesn't necessarily mean we have to work hard at it. We can't just sit back and wait to be happy. Do something.

As for Michael Jordan, maybe it's not that he wasn't satisfied with six championships. Maybe he hated not playing the sport he loves. I've seen it so many times in Nascar. A driver retires but within a couple years, maybe even the next year, he's driving again.

And that just furthur backs my point. Guys like those retire and realize that driving or playing basketball is what makes them truly happy. Once it's gone, they realize that they took it for granted.

Then again, maybe I'm completely wrong and all they wanted was more championships. Then again, maybe winning is what makes them happy and all they're doing is pursuing happiness.

 

[The Man Who Is Thursday]

This brings a new wrinkle into the equation---it is quite easy for an individual to identify what makes him happy and design his life around the achievement of those goals, but what happens when a marriage comes into play and expectations of some sort of forward progress begin to enter into it? What if in the course of providing for his family in a traditional male role, a man loses sight of what makes himself happy and ends up miserable? I'd read an article in a magazine (I think it was Men's Health) a few years back that identified the fastest-growing demographic for suicide as men between 28 and 35, the demo with the house and the kids and the white picket fences, who look at their lives and think "is this really it? This is what I worked so hard for?" and splatter their brains all over the back wall of the garage.

I think this ties back in with what the OP said about depression being more rampant than it's ever been. If so, this seems like a fitting explanation. With the ridiculously pervasive promotion of an ideal lifestyle as the goal, if you read it and find that it's not ideal, you're likely to be let down at best and horribly depressed at worst.

It's like Jay Gatsby. He can want one thing so bad that it starts to intermix with a bunch of other things (his love for Daisy with money, security, etc), and he thinks it'll make him happy, but it certainly didn't end that way. I guess hype just tends to ruin things. Like Halo 3 or The Dark Knight.

 

[Sweep117]

I go beyond saying we have a right to pursue happiness. We can do better. I make other people happy because I believe they have the right to be, and I'm gonna do what I can while maintaining my own happiness. We can't be happy all the time, and we shouldn't want that, but we should be happy as much as convenient and comfortable.

You said it. I also love making people happy. Not only because they should be happy and I have the means to help that but because making people happy, in turn, makes me happy. I think true happiness is being happy with what you've been given.I don't think that we shouldn't want to be happy all the time. I think we can't. (That's not to say don't try to be happier. Just find happiness in what you've got.)

 

[SimuLord]

I think this ties back in with what the OP said about depression being more rampant than it's ever been. If so, this seems like a fitting explanation. With the ridiculously pervasive promotion of an ideal lifestyle as the goal, if you read it and find that it's not ideal, you're likely to be let down at best and horribly depressed at worst.

It's like Jay Gatsby. He can want one thing so bad that it starts to intermix with a bunch of other things (his love for Daisy with money, security, etc), and he thinks it'll make him happy, but it certainly didn't end that way. I guess hype just tends to ruin things. Like Halo 3 or The Dark Knight.

The ability to recognize that impending depression before getting too deeply committed to it has been many a man's salvation. If I really believed that my wife would force me into the provider role (over and above my promise to her on our wedding day that if not right away then at some point in the future I'd make something of myself and make enough money that she didn't have to work if she didn't want to), if I really believed that her tastes would become sufficiently expensive solely because I was bringing home more bacon, I'd be making plans to divorce her as soon as I no longer had need of her for my own purposes (it's the Chaotic Neutral part of my nature). As it stands, my efforts at self-improvement are as much for her as for me because I have faith that she won't become a money pit making me miserable because of my own Spartan minimalist ideas of consumerism.

Point I'm trying to make is that the same piece of advice I give to any young guys who ask me for life advice ties inherently into the right to pursue happiness---I believe that one of the very essences of masculinity is the right to dictate terms (at least within reason) over one's life and surroundings. I believe very firmly in a sort of neo-traditionalism when it comes to gender. It's not that "a woman's place is in the home", it's that the measure of a man lies in his ability to fulfill the traditional male role and provide an environment where he may choose a woman to fill a traditional female role if she so desires, whether she (or even the man) want that as their ultimate end. It's not a man saying "my wife shouldn't work", it's a man being able to say "my wife works by choice, not by necessity."

 

[JC175]

I don't think its either, happiness can't be a human right, the human condition of emotional response and function completely stops that from being possible. Even if one person was able to keep themselves happy for their whole lives, the normal human response is to be selfish - so there's a high chance they'd be robbing someone else of their happiness by being totally content with themselves.

But in saying that, I don't think its something that could purely be pursued either; sure there are times where ones pursuit of a goal results in happiness, but there are plenty of times when that fails or doesn't go quite to plan.

I think rather than those two alternatives, happiness is simply a human emotion that occurs by the combination of desire and happy coincidence - after all, how would we be able to judge happiness if we didn't have pain, loss, and depression to compare it to.

 

[mcgooch]

This brings a new wrinkle into the equation---it is quite easy for an individual to identify what makes him happy and design his life around the achievement of those goals, but what happens when a marriage comes into play and expectations of some sort of forward progress begin to enter into it? What if in the course of providing for his family in a traditional male role, a man loses sight of what makes himself happy and ends up miserable? I'd read an article in a magazine (I think it was Men's Health) a few years back that identified the fastest-growing demographic for suicide as men between 28 and 35, the demo with the house and the kids and the white picket fences, who look at their lives and think "is this really it? This is what I worked so hard for?" and splatter their brains all over the back wall of the garage.

I think this ties back in with what the OP said about depression being more rampant than it's ever been. If so, this seems like a fitting explanation. With the ridiculously pervasive promotion of an ideal lifestyle as the goal, if you read it and find that it's not ideal, you're likely to be let down at best and horribly depressed at worst.

This is indeed what I was talking about. Today peoples expectation of happiness (In my opinion) leads to deeper levels of sadness over an equal disappointment. I thus think that people should think of happiness as something to be pursued rather than something they have an inherent right to.

 

[SimuLord]

This brings a new wrinkle into the equation---it is quite easy for an individual to identify what makes him happy and design his life around the achievement of those goals, but what happens when a marriage comes into play and expectations of some sort of forward progress begin to enter into it? What if in the course of providing for his family in a traditional male role, a man loses sight of what makes himself happy and ends up miserable? I'd read an article in a magazine (I think it was Men's Health) a few years back that identified the fastest-growing demographic for suicide as men between 28 and 35, the demo with the house and the kids and the white picket fences, who look at their lives and think "is this really it? This is what I worked so hard for?" and splatter their brains all over the back wall of the garage.

I think this ties back in with what the OP said about depression being more rampant than it's ever been. If so, this seems like a fitting explanation. With the ridiculously pervasive promotion of an ideal lifestyle as the goal, if you read it and find that it's not ideal, you're likely to be let down at best and horribly depressed at worst.

This is indeed what I was talking about. Today peoples expectation of happiness (In my opinion) leads to deeper levels of sadness over an equal disappointment. I thus think that people should think of happiness as something to be pursued rather than something they have an inherent right to.

It finally occurred to me whose attitude it is that happiness is an inherent right that must be supplied by the world when I was just reading a Calvin and Hobbes anthology. Sense of entitlement is the ideology of the six-year-old, which is a pretty good summation of the level to which our culture (and it doesn't seem to be confined to America anymore) has sunk.

 

[Redlac]

Other.

I prefer contentment with odd bursts of happiness chucked in.