Poll: High Level Math in the Escapist

[Happiness Assassin]

Currently I am taking Calculus III in my freshman year of college, as well as Probability and Statistics (because my schedule is fucked and I have to fulfill a credit requirement to maintain financial aid). I can honestly say that am by far the youngest person in my class, though that has more to do with the fact that I go to a satellite campus where everyone who attends in usually at least 25. In high school, most math came rather naturally to me, as did most of my subjects. I tried my hand at tutoring, but I found that to be quite challenging, due to the fact that explaining concepts that to you may seem concrete and logical to someone who has no clue makes you sound somewhat condescending.

Unfortunately, from what I have seen (from my purely anecdotal and limited view of 2 high schools), schools seem to only give the barest minimum of shits when it comes to teaching kids actual math. The way my second school was set up was particularly bad: the principal basically encouraged students to skip entire courses into higher level courses that they were wholly unprepared for with limited space for all the new students. Why he did this, I am unsure, though rumors persisted that he got bonuses from the district by having the highest amount AP students out of any school. The worst part was that it was nigh impossible to actually drop down in course level. So from the start of my school year, with a class of 35, at most 15 actually pasted the class. Everyone hated how the school was run: the students stuck classes that they were encouraged that they were ready for, the counselors who here essentially compelled to put these students there, and the higher level teachers whose students pass rates (something that I knew these people used to take pride in) took a nosedive. The only people who loved it, were the principal who loved to espouse at the beginning of the year how many people were in AP or Pre-AP and the higher-ups who signed his paychecks.

 

[Yopaz]

I can't vote in your poll. I am a science major, but I do not need more than basic maths to do the things I do. I am slightly above high school level so none of your poll options fit me. This is why "other" is a good poll option.

 

[Coppernerves]

*snip*
As an addition to have a poll, what level of math do you have? High school problem and equiation solving? Trig and functions? Able to solve basic differential equiations? Theorem prooving? Are you a reseearcher? And if you are not into Math, what do you think a mathematician does?

I'm at end of university level, so I can solve theorems of a basic nature, but really out of date with modern theories. I can't read Navier-Stokes' "proof", but a good amount of introductory knowledge about different areas I do have, although some has to be polished.
*snip*

I love elegant systems and the workings of clever solutions, so when I started 6th Form intent on becoming an R&D Engineer, I took Mathematics and Further Mathematics.

I couldn't keep up all that well, so I dropped the "Further" part in favour of Biology, catching up to and exceeding much of the Bio class over the next holiday.

I continued with the standard Mathematics, I stayed behind after class discussing it with my teachers, trying to understand it instead of just learning solutions by drill and rote, but the course was too rushed for me to chew properly before gulping methods down.
(Still got a grade as good as my one in Biology though)

I think Mathematics could be very interesting at a more intuitive pace, but I doubt I could get that in Uni, so I'm doing Biology. (For elegant systems and the workings of clever solutions.)

 

[Roggen Bread]

Currently working on my MSc in Engineering Sciences. But still I hate maths. What do I vote?

 

[Danny Ocean]

I'm at end of university level, so I can solve theorems of a basic nature, but really out of date with modern theories. I can't read Navier-Stokes' "proof", but a good amount of introductory knowledge about different areas I do have, although some has to be polished.

You should modify your poll.

Not being a science major does not necessarily mean you only have a high-school level of maths.

Especially if you're a social scientist (stats) or an analytic-school philosopher/philosopher of science/philosopher of maths.

I love maths at a conceptual level, I'm just severely out of practice with it.

One of my biggest regrets is doing a philosophy degree- not because of jobs or anything, but because it's possible to teach yourself philosophy far more easily than it is to teach yourself engineering or science, never mind lab experience.

I really think they should make degrees cost different amounts rather than charging the flat £9000 p/a and subsidising the costly-to-teach subjects (engineering, physics, compsci, etc...) with the cheap-to-teach subjects (basically all the humanities, arts, and social science).

 

[Hazy992]

Maths is pretty much my Kryptonite. I can't friggin' stand it, I don't understand most of it and it bores me to tears.

How I managed to actually get a B grade in GCSE Maths I will never know.

 

[King of Asgaard]

Not sure where it fits in the poll, but I've done Pure Maths at Intermediate level, and got a C. In terms of topics done, that comes to about the midway point of matrices. Basically, I'm not hopeless at the subject, but I'm far from proficient.

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

On the original topic, I suppose it's because there can be a great disparity between the abilities and backgrounds of students entering college-level here. While there are generally consistent requirements for high school graduation across one school district, imagine how many school districts exist in the US. My school district, for instance, required calculus to graduate. That being said, I took it again in college because it was required for my degree.

So most colleges have this hodge-podge of introductory/remedial level classes to bring everyone up to speed. I suppose I kind of assumed all colleges worldwide had such features. And no, not everyone needs to take them. But it is helpful.

For example, OP, do you have any background in art history? My college offers intro-level art history courses. Presumably, there may be people who went to artistic schools and know this stuff already. I did not. So, I enrolled into an introductory art class. Same basic premise; different field of study.

I personally fall most heavily into the "statistics" category. I took Calc I and Stats I for my degree in Biology/Pre-Medicine. I also took Discrete Math for the hell of it. However, understanding a lot of research has required me to study up on other math on my own. The other day I delved into Principal Components Analysis. Most frustrating thing I've ever tried to understand as I don't have a strong background in matrices.

 

[Auberon]

I suck at advanced mathematics, though partly because my brain capacity lacks when it comes to probabilities with integration. Luckily, me being (software) engineer by upcoming education presumably doesn't involve those extents.

 

[jklinders]

I was just coming to an understanding of trigonometry when I left high school. that was very nearly 20 years ago. I know what is and what it is used for but I could not actually perform it right now to save my life. There were options to take more and less advanced math courses than i did. I chose not to because I was nearly certain that I'd suck at it. Still not sure if that was a good or a bad idea as my first 2 years of high school math were actually a rehash of what I learned in middle school and my marks dropped as a result.

Haven't a clue what calculus actually is and I really don't care to be taught at this late age.

 

[Exterminas]

I have a doctorate in theoretical philosophy and spend my average work day doing math without numbers.
... Should I just pick the "I hate math"-Option then?

 

[O maestre]

In America it depends more on the students level what courses he or she takes. I knew some people in High school who were taking Advanced levels of Calculus and others who never made it past Algebra. And of course in University now there are those who never get past basic Statistics while others are taking levels of Maths and Physics that are way above anything I could ever imagine. Its all relative, basically. Most students start at Calculus in my University.

8 out of the top 10 Universities in the World are American so its safe to say that it's the individual case rather than a universal rule.

There are probably many people in your university that don't take higher level math courses. You seem to be in the field of mathematics, did it ever occur to you that you and your peers may be the exception rather than the rule?

While you are right that quality varies greatly from place to place, I can't help but point out that top 8 universities in the world does not translate to top mathematics, engineering or technical universities in the world.

Granted the US has also a large presence their I think it is about half of the top ten from the US.

OT: level varies a lot from place and times, in my country High schoolers use to learn linear algebra and some calculus at what would equivocate to preparatory high school(gymnasium), and advanced trigonometry at the ninth grade. Now because of politicians wanting to give an illusion of effective education reforms, these subjects have been pushed up a "level" trigonometry is a gymnasium subject and linear algebra and calculus is university level. Subject like statistics and probability are now only found in very specialized advance courses.

It s frightening actually how a few politicians can completely side step a serious problem. Instead of bringing discipline an demanding more from teachers, students and parents, they have made the schools easier, in order to later say with a straight face that the government has solved the education crisis. The sad truth is that our students are a lot "dumber" than their predecessors, and that is going to be a serious problem, due to the overall population age. There will not be enough qualified people in the future to take over the jobs of the old.

 

[Colour Scientist]

I did maths up to the end of school but it's mandatory in Ireland.

We did algebra, trigonometry, geometry, probability, all kinds of math crap really.
I was actually pretty decent at it and did fail fairly well but I'm too much of an artsy wanker to pursue a degree in science or mathematics.

 

[TheSYLOH]

I have a bachelors degree in Computer science. Roughly a third of the courses were in math. Mainly proofs but a couple needed solving, I personally preferred the ones where I wound up with number at the end.

I'm going for a masters in IT right now, strangely none of the courses look math based.
.

 

[Redingold]

As a physicist, I'm pretty good at maths. I took the Further Maths A-Level, which covers things like calculus, differential equations, Taylor series, conic sections, proof by induction, complex numbers, matrices, vectors, statistics, decision maths, and more mechanics than I did in the A-level Physics course (shame on you, A-level Physics, you're rubbish), and at uni, I've covered things like vector calculus, Fourier series and Fourier transforms, and I'm doing courses on complex analysis and propositional logic at the moment.

 

[Muspelheim]

I did maths up to the end of school but it's mandatory in Ireland.

We did algebra, trigonometry, geometry, probability, all kinds of math crap really.
I was actually pretty decent at it and did fail fairly well but I'm too much of an artsy wanker to pursue a degree in science or mathematics.

Sounds just like my relationship with mathematics, too.

It's certainly interesting, and I'm very, very happy there are people who are interested in it, and people who can do it. I'm just not that good at it myself, or interested enough to hitch up my trousers and get good at it.

Now, me having forgotten most of it along the way does not make it a useless waste of my ever so important time. Getting at least a vague idea of how mathematics work and why it's important that at least some people know what they're doing with it is important, I think. Not to mention, when I need bits of what I've learned, it's easier to call on those than if I had to start from the very beginning.

 

[jskryn]

I recently graduated with a math degree from Michigan State and I can see where you're coming from. I did take calculus in high school, but it wasn't a requirement and, as a college freshman, I chose to take one of the lowest level courses I could (pre-calculus), which was actually less advanced than my high school course, because I had no interest in math at the time. Needless to say, I did end up getting to the higher level, theorem-proving stuff, but it took me some time. The thing is, a student, at least at MSU, can pass out of lower level courses and start with more difficult things if they have sufficient ability and desire.

Overall, I feel that math is terribly underappreciated and I have no doubt that my own intellectual growth was delayed in the past due to my stubborn rejection of the subject. But this is only because I chose math as my field and says nothing of those who haven't. The fact of the matter is- many, like my former self, don't rightly know what their interests are until they've had some time to grow as a person.

I believe the sentiment in most American universities is to allow students to explore their interests for the first year or so and I don't believe this is a bad thing, but it does yield the sort of negative results that you highlight. Under this sort of system a student doesn't need expertise in a subject to develop in it. Certainly, there are cynical, capitalistic reasons for this system to be in place and people become less specialized in their fields, though, as a practical matter, most jobs don't call for such a high level of academic specialization considering a purely academic skillset has limited material value. The majority of growth, in any field, is done post under-grad studies and current/future college students would do well to remember that.

In your original post you mentioned that a student "should" be beyond solving simple derivatives and integrations by the time they reach college and I pose to you a friendly, intellectual challenge: prove it. What axiom do you begin with and what logical deductive process do you use to arrive at the assertion that it is objectively better for an individual to master these skills by a certain time in lieu of mastery of other skills? Or do you have empirical results to back up this claim? I don't intend to sound confrontational, but it's something worth thinking about.

 

[Eamar]

I don't really fit any of those categories.

In the UK, maths is only compulsory until the age of 16 and is frankly still very basic at that stage. That'd be our equivalent of "standard high school math", I guess.

After 16, you can choose to carry on with three or four subjects until you're 18, then potentially go on to university where you study (usually) one subject exclusively. I took maths as one of my subjects, but I didn't carry it on at university.

So basically, I'm above "standard high school" level, but still pretty low down the pecking order. I loved maths though, wish I could have carried it on.

 

[MysticSlayer]

snip

For the most part, it comes down to the way the student structured high school. Algebra 1&2 are absolutely mandatory in most states and schools, and you might get a little trigonometry there but not much. Geometry is also required, but the exact nature of that class drastically changes. By now I'd imagine most structure it to fit with SAT standards. After that, math courses really come down to what you expect to study in college.

For instance, I wasn't even sure I was going to do a math-based major in college. If anything, I expected to study English, philosophy, politics, law, or theology. The closest I would have come to math was possibly business, and my high school offered numerous business-based math classes, so I didn't see the point in taking Pre-Calculus, much less Calculus. As a result, when I got to college and started going for Environmental Science (have since changed, though), I was forced to take Pre-Calculus and Trigonometry. On the other hand, I know people who completely skipped Calculus1&2 in university because they took an advanced class in high school, and other people are able to skip Calculus 1 and go straight to Calculus 2. Skipping Calculus 3 is probably impossible, but since most people are never going to reach that level, there's very little point in teaching it in high school.

As an addition to have a poll, what level of math do you have? High school problem and equiation solving? Trig and functions? Able to solve basic differential equiations? Theorem prooving? Are you a reseearcher? And if you are not into Math, what do you think a mathematician does?

I'm up to Calculus 3, which here basically means we start considering more than one variable and move into three or more dimensions (not sure what the equivalent is there). Proofs still aren't used, but at this point, 95% of the people taking the class are engineering students who aren't too concerned with proofs. Given my major, this is essentially the end of pure math for me. After this, it will basically be all about applying the math I've learned to different engineering concepts.