Poll: How much is an innocent worth?

[Kortney]

Guilt by association! In you go, Mister "innocent"!

 

[InfiniteSingularity]

...why would finding 10 of them guilty mean that the innocent would be charged too?

I would assume it's because we don't know which one is innocent or not.

Send them all away. Rape is a very serious crime and should be treated harshly, much more so than it is. To put away 10 rapists for the price of one jailed innocent? Bargain.

If it becomes evident who the innocent one is after a while, let them off for good behaviour

 

[Axelhander]

I'm willing to be that 99.6% of the people that voted "charge everyone" has never been wrongfully penalized in a truly life-destroying way.

The other 0.4% can't be trusted to provide a reasonable answer, given that being the victim of a wrongful accusation has damaged them beyond repair.

 

[magicmonkeybars]

All are guilty, punish none of them.

 

[Blondi3]

I'd put them all away. If I had to go to prison for something I didn't do but I knew that I put away scum at the same time, I'd do it. Rape is a crime of the pathetic and cowardly. Filthy animals... Sorry it's a personal subject for me because it happened to two people I'm very close with.

 

[Helscreama]

I like how you say you'll get them again when they recommit....what about the next poor person they rape?

 

[Paksenarrion]

Well hopefully the innocent guy will say "No. Put us all away, they can't get away with it"
And so I know who's innocent!
But then lock them all up, just in case.

So would you be completely willing to be locked in prison for 10 years for a crime you didn't commit so that 10 other people can be as well who won't do the same crime again anyways?

If it was me, then yes. I would then set out to anally violate them using old rusty sewage pipes. I'd hunt them down one by one whilst in prison, and display their just penance for all to see.

But you're a girl! Would you really spend time in a men's prison just to...do *that*?

For rapists, yes.

But there's probably more rapists *in* prison! Are you going to implement this plan on every one of them?

I have 10 years, right? The only thing I'd worry about is running out of rusty sewage pipe...

 

[UrbanCohort]

I said "dunno" because the option for 'sacrificing everyone who posts on this thread' wasn't an option

 

[Bobbity]

I think that, at one point in the Bible, God says that he'd spare a city of sinners, for the sake of one innocent person. So there's the answer for something like a quarter of the world's population

Being an atheist myself, I think I have to agree. The justice system becomes worthless if we're willing to screw over innocent people in our attempts to do good. Essentially, it's the same as murdering civilians so as to depose a dictator.

Besides, there's nothing saying we can't monitor these people afterwards, and do our damnedest to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

 

[InfiniteSingularity]

I'm willing to be that 99.6% of the people that voted "charge everyone" has never been wrongfully penalized in a truly life-destroying way.

The other 0.4% can't be trusted to provide a reasonable answer, given that being the victim of a wrongful accusation has damaged them beyond repair.

I'm willing to bet that a similar percentage of the people that voted "charge no one" probably doesn't understand that rape is a horrible violation of a persons body, a terrible crime which is not considered anywhere near as bad as it actually is by most justice systems. Rape is inexcusable, and anyone who offends should be put away for life, and the 10 people who are guilty for one innocent? You'd have to be a sexist, a rapist, or insane to let them all go.

A harder question would be "10 innocents, plue one guilty of rape, and you don't know who did what. Jail all or none"

 

[The Gnome King]

Okay. Here´s the scenario:

There are eleven people. All of these people are being brought into court. They are accused of rape. If charged, they will face 10 years in prison and be marked for the rest of their lives. Ten of these people have commited the act of rape. However, one of them, is 100% innocent.

However, in order for the Ten guilty to be charged, the one innocent would also be charged.
If however, the innocent is not charged, the Ten will get away scott-free.

How much is an innocent worth?

Me? I´d let them all go. I value an innocent person very highly.

EDIT: I´ve just decided that there is a chance they will commit the crime again. If they do, they will be charged as normal. The innocent will have nothing to do with it.

If you see someone saying they won´t commit the crime again, please excuse them.

I think this plays into the whole death penalty question quite handily; in that, is it worth it to have capital punishment on the books if even 1 innocent man gets punished by death due to it? You can retract a prison sentence when new DNA evidence comes out or, Hell, even if laws change - but you can't (yet) bring somebody back to life.

My gut tells me that nothing is worth punishing an innocent man so I'd have to go with letting them all go free, just to avoid punishing somebody that didn't deserve it.

But that's me.

 

[Saelune]

I would be too busy questioning poor protocol to make a choice.

 

[The Gnome King]

I'm willing to be that 99.6% of the people that voted "charge everyone" has never been wrongfully penalized in a truly life-destroying way.

The other 0.4% can't be trusted to provide a reasonable answer, given that being the victim of a wrongful accusation has damaged them beyond repair.

I'm willing to bet that a similar percentage of the people that voted "charge no one" probably doesn't understand that rape is a horrible violation of a persons body, a terrible crime which is not considered anywhere near as bad as it actually is by most justice systems. Rape is inexcusable, and anyone who offends should be put away for life, and the 10 people who are guilty for one innocent? You'd have to be a sexist, a rapist, or insane to let them all go.

A harder question would be "10 innocents, plue one guilty of rape, and you don't know who did what. Jail all or none"

Most rape is actually man-on-man rape from prison sentences, from statistics I've heard. Yes, rape is inexcusable - but jailing an innocent is also inexcusable.

I don't think that it would be worth the jailing of 10 guilty people if even 1 innocent had to be punished; Hell - I don't think it would be worth it to jail 100 guilty people if 1 innocent had to be punished.

I don't consider myself to be sexist, insane, and I know I'm not a rapist so we'll just have to go with different people have different moral structures.

(And personally, my wife sitting right here says that as horrible as rape is, being jailed for no reason would be far more violating to her. I know quite a few women working in human right's organizations who feel the same way. Rape is a horrible, horrible crime - but taking away the freedom of an innocent man or woman just so you can punish some criminals in the process? You're playing God there, and that is just as inexcusable as the crime you claim to be against.)

One might even say that imprisonment is the rape of a man or woman's spirit and soul - as well as very likely leading to the rape of the body.

 

[InfiniteSingularity]

I'm willing to be that 99.6% of the people that voted "charge everyone" has never been wrongfully penalized in a truly life-destroying way.

The other 0.4% can't be trusted to provide a reasonable answer, given that being the victim of a wrongful accusation has damaged them beyond repair.

I'm willing to bet that a similar percentage of the people that voted "charge no one" probably doesn't understand that rape is a horrible violation of a persons body, a terrible crime which is not considered anywhere near as bad as it actually is by most justice systems. Rape is inexcusable, and anyone who offends should be put away for life, and the 10 people who are guilty for one innocent? You'd have to be a sexist, a rapist, or insane to let them all go.

A harder question would be "10 innocents, plue one guilty of rape, and you don't know who did what. Jail all or none"

Most rape is actually man-on-man rape from prison sentences, from statistics I've heard. Yes, rape is inexcusable - but jailing an innocent is also inexcusable.

I don't think that it would be worth the jailing of 10 guilty people if even 1 innocent had to be punished; Hell - I don't think it would be worth it to jail 100 guilty people if 1 innocent had to be punished.

I don't consider myself to be sexist, insane, and I know I'm not a rapist so we'll just have to go with different people have different moral structures.

(And personally, my wife sitting right here says that as horrible as rape is, being jailed for no reason would be far more violating to her. I know quite a few women working in human right's organizations who feel the same way. Rape is a horrible, horrible crime - but taking away the freedom of an innocent man or woman just so you can punish some criminals in the process? You're playing God there, and that is just as inexcusable as the crime you claim to be against.)

One might even say that imprisonment is the rape of a man or woman's spirit and soul - as well as very likely leading to the rape of the body.

I agree with you to some extent, but consider this: If you have ten rapists, plus one innocent person, remember that you also have ten innocent people (likely women) who have been violated and likely traumatised. A rapist that gets away with their crime is likely to reoffend, so you can assume that if you let them go, you now have 20 innocent people violated with rape. For the sake of one innocent's freedom I don't think it's worth it.

It's not very often I take the extreme utilitarian viewpoint - I generally don't believe in punishment anyway. And yes we are playing God - but is it better to harm one innocent person, or save that one person but potentially, and most likely, have another 10 innocent people harmed? I never usually agree with utilitarianism, but I strongly believe in this case it is the right thing to do.

But not only is this a punishment - it is disabling rapists to offend, and violate innocent people again, and a disincentive to after their ten year sentence is up. The next step would be castration of rapists - but I think that's a bit extreme even for me.

I think that our justice system, or in western countries at least, seem to see rape as being a "minor offence", possibly a result of most countries beginning largely patriarchal, and women have had to fight for their basic rights as individuals and citizens, and some women are still fighting today. Our male-oriented society doesn't get the severity of this offence, and our justice system doesn't take it seriously enough. I believe rape is a very serious and damaging offence - in some ways it can be worse than murder, and can be likened to torture for some people, in some cases. But offenders only seem to get a slap on the wrist, relatively speaking, for rape. And think we need to start punishing rapists in a much, much more severe way than we are now, so people can get the idea that this is not acceptable

 

[Xixikal]

Rape is amongst the worst of crimes I can think of, I would sacrifice myself to put those people where they belong. I wouldn't ask of others what I wouldn't do myself.

 

[TheDarklite]

I would let them go, there is no way I could bring myself to sentence an innocent so severely. That being said, I am sure the families of the victims might not necessarily let the crimes go unpunished. I would turn my eye to any activity they may perform outside the legal system.

 

[theklng]

nobody is innocent

 

[Seriphina]

It's unfortunate that the bad guy will get away to do it again ruining another life but to taint 9 lives and have them carry with them that they were accussed of commiting rape? They could never get a job or have a normal relationship with that over their heads... Well maybe they could form a relationship but then would the other person always be questioning if they did it and never truely be sure?
Horrible.
Let them go.

 

[Axelhander]

I'm willing to be that 99.6% of the people that voted "charge everyone" has never been wrongfully penalized in a truly life-destroying way.

The other 0.4% can't be trusted to provide a reasonable answer, given that being the victim of a wrongful accusation has damaged them beyond repair.

I'm willing to bet that a similar percentage of the people that voted "charge no one" probably doesn't understand that rape is a horrible violation of a persons body, a terrible crime which is not considered anywhere near as bad as it actually is by most justice systems. Rape is inexcusable, and anyone who offends should be put away for life, and the 10 people who are guilty for one innocent? You'd have to be a sexist, a rapist, or insane to let them all go.

A harder question would be "10 innocents, plue one guilty of rape, and you don't know who did what. Jail all or none"

I like how you topic changed into populist rhetoric without actually addressing my post, showing you remembered the most important lesson of Thank You for Smoking.

 

[The Gnome King]

I agree with you to some extent, but consider this: If you have ten rapists, plus one innocent person, remember that you also have ten innocent people (likely women) who have been violated and likely traumatised. A rapist that gets away with their crime is likely to reoffend, so you can assume that if you let them go, you now have 20 innocent people violated with rape. For the sake of one innocent's freedom I don't think it's worth it.

It's not very often I take the extreme utilitarian viewpoint - I generally don't believe in punishment anyway. And yes we are playing God - but is it better to harm one innocent person, or save that one person but potentially, and most likely, have another 10 innocent people harmed? I never usually agree with utilitarianism, but I strongly believe in this case it is the right thing to do.

But not only is this a punishment - it is disabling rapists to offend, and violate innocent people again, and a disincentive to after their ten year sentence is up. The next step would be castration of rapists - but I think that's a bit extreme even for me.

I think that our justice system, or in western countries at least, seem to see rape as being a "minor offence", possibly a result of most countries beginning largely patriarchal, and women have had to fight for their basic rights as individuals and citizens, and some women are still fighting today. Our male-oriented society doesn't get the severity of this offence, and our justice system doesn't take it seriously enough. I believe rape is a very serious and damaging offence - in some ways it can be worse than murder, and can be likened to torture for some people, in some cases. But offenders only seem to get a slap on the wrist, relatively speaking, for rape. And think we need to start punishing rapists in a much, much more severe way than we are now, so people can get the idea that this is not acceptable

We simply will have to agree to disagree on a few points here. I don't believe rape is worse than murder; ever; and no woman I have ever known believes that she would rather be murdered than rape. Murder is final. It. Done. Gone. Rape might be extremely hard to recover from, though it can be done. (And I won't go into details here but I have a bit more experience with this topic, and exactly how harmful rape can be, than you might think.)

Are some rapists under-punished? Probably. We'll agree on that point - I know what >>I<< personally would feel appropriate to do to a man who, say, raped my wife - but I also know that I am emotionally wrapped up in that case like that; far too much to be "just" since I would simply want "vengeance" .

Also, a point you seem to be overlooking; men CAN be raped and many ARE raped; by other men. It can be equally - if not more - traumatic for a man to be raped because a lot of the support systems in place for women who are raped just aren't there for men; like in the case of prison rape. Let's say a non-violent drug offender (or worse, an innocent man) gets raped in prison. I would have to say that men can understand how this is an evil, hateful, and dangerous crime just as well as women.

I don't think gender even needs to come into place here to answer the original question. It's not a matter of men vs. women on this; anyone can be raped and it's never a positive thing. The question, though, is would I feel comfortable punishing 1 innocent man to get 10 guilty ones.

And the answer remains, "No." I would not. Even if those rapists went out to commit other crimes. I wouldn't put 10 murderers away if I had to jail 1 innocent man, either. The crime doesn't matter in this case. Murder, rape, theft - replace "rape" with "murder" if it makes you feel more comfortable.

I *refuse* to send an innocent man to jail, even to protect others.