Poll: If you were spanked as a child, do you think it made you a better person?
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Well, this has been a very interesting discussion. I think the thing I've learned most clearly is: AndyFromMonday is impossible to reason with and resorts to name-calling, and thus I think I can safely ignore his opinions when I spot him elsewhere on these forums.
Not what I wanted to learn here, but hey, you take what you're given I guess.
I've been thinking about memories. I don't remember any specific spanking I ever got; I know that I got them, a few times at least. I remember (vaguely) a tiff my parents had over whether my brother was too old to spank or not (Dad thought he was, Mom thought no). I honestly don't remember much other than that.
I recall more clearly the times when control broke in other ways. I think I remember these clearly because there were so few and they were always surprising! My mom once got mad at us for something and threw a chair at her bedroom door; the leg broke a hole in it which is there to this day. I think she must have taken after her mother a little because once when I was a teenager I got my grandma so mad that she threw a ceramic sort of pan past my head (not at me, just past me) and it shattered in the sink.
There's also the time I was really little and tried to go into my parents' room without knocking, and they were in the middle of sex and so yelled at me to get out. I don't much remember the tone of it (though I think it was surprised and frantic rather than mean) but it shocked me so much that even now, as an adult, even when I know they're fast asleep, I hesitate to enter their room to, say, get toilet paper. Part of me says to knock and get permission even if it requires waking them up at 2 AM.
But yeah. I think yelling, screaming, and losing your temper is far more traumatizing than spanking, if you spank while keeping your cool. (As someone up there said, don't be angry, be stern.) I know that you don't have to be a kid to be unsettled when your mom or dad is visibly carrying anger around, and it's a way worse state of affairs than clearing the air and getting on with your relationship, which is part of what spanking is supposed to do.
And I absolutely refute the idea of "if you weren't caught up in anger and emotions then you'd be calm enough to not spank" since, as has been repeatedly mentioned around here, spanking (appropriately) has nothing to do with the parent's emotional state.
Not what I wanted to learn here, but hey, you take what you're given I guess.
I've been thinking about memories. I don't remember any specific spanking I ever got; I know that I got them, a few times at least. I remember (vaguely) a tiff my parents had over whether my brother was too old to spank or not (Dad thought he was, Mom thought no). I honestly don't remember much other than that.
I recall more clearly the times when control broke in other ways. I think I remember these clearly because there were so few and they were always surprising! My mom once got mad at us for something and threw a chair at her bedroom door; the leg broke a hole in it which is there to this day. I think she must have taken after her mother a little because once when I was a teenager I got my grandma so mad that she threw a ceramic sort of pan past my head (not at me, just past me) and it shattered in the sink.
There's also the time I was really little and tried to go into my parents' room without knocking, and they were in the middle of sex and so yelled at me to get out. I don't much remember the tone of it (though I think it was surprised and frantic rather than mean) but it shocked me so much that even now, as an adult, even when I know they're fast asleep, I hesitate to enter their room to, say, get toilet paper. Part of me says to knock and get permission even if it requires waking them up at 2 AM.
But yeah. I think yelling, screaming, and losing your temper is far more traumatizing than spanking, if you spank while keeping your cool. (As someone up there said, don't be angry, be stern.) I know that you don't have to be a kid to be unsettled when your mom or dad is visibly carrying anger around, and it's a way worse state of affairs than clearing the air and getting on with your relationship, which is part of what spanking is supposed to do.
And I absolutely refute the idea of "if you weren't caught up in anger and emotions then you'd be calm enough to not spank" since, as has been repeatedly mentioned around here, spanking (appropriately) has nothing to do with the parent's emotional state.
I never said it was about rage. It's about frustration. It's about you undermining his authority. That's what spanking is all about. "I'm bigger. You can either listen or I'll beat you". I never claimed every family is the same as mine. What I did claim is that kids are not as different. Each child will end up the person their parents shaped him or her up to be. If the child ends up a selfish brat well then it's damn fuck yes the fault of the parents and the same goes for any other negative characteristics. If your spoiled little brat doesn't listen to you well then that's because you were a bad parent and if he has deep emotional troubles that he's afraid to then that's also your goddamn fault.Kyoufuu said:
And people don't just grow up to be selfish because "they weren't beaten enough". It's because the parents didn't make the right choices with them. It's because they didn't took their time to understand their child and actually give a fuck and attempt to understand why he/she doesn't want to do what he's told instead of just acting like a bunch of fucking rednecks and resorting to violence. THAT'S my problem with beating your child. They don't even bother attempting to know WHY. They just presume that it's because he's a "child" and that's what "children do" and we need to use "harsh punishments" so they stop disobeying us.
If this thread was about beating animals everyone would report the OP and he'd get banned. If it's about beating children well then that's A-OK. Apparently, children have less rights than a fucking dog.
Thank you. I'm glad we can have a reasonable discussion in which both sides are treated equally. I'm also glad you guys know what triggers a spanking and the feelings involved there. Apparently, saying it contains no emotions really does mean it contains no emotion and it's an amazing disciplining tool despite what the contrary. I'm glad you experienced only violence growing up. I'm even happier you're allowing other kids to go through the same shit again. I'm even happier that kids have less rights than dogs. Apparently, that's how the world works and if anyone has a different opinion well then fuck me with a stick that's just out of this world. Nevermind the American Psychological Association, the Royal College of Pediatrics, the Australian Psychological Society and the Royal College of Psychiatrists and all the other studies that have been done on spanking. Nope, they're all idiots. You're the smart one and you know for a fact spanking didn't affect you so it sure as hell won't affect others.Kilyle said:
Yargh. The form of spanking I support is used when the child refuses to use talking and help you understand them. It gets them to the state where you CAN talk it out.AndyFromMonday said:
My first post in this thread (which was way too long, but meh) pointed out a similar effect from a recent event where I started pulling my 7-year-old nephew across the floor of the church, and he snapped out of disobedience (though he was still sullen) and came with me downstairs and we got the chance to discuss his behavior (refusing to obey orders and get out from under the piano bench, given church was ready to start). I determined that he was tired and let him sleep through the whole two hours, which probably did him a world of good.
I didn't get mad at him or berate him. I gave him a command, noted that he had chosen not to obey, and started dragging. If he had continued to resist I was prepared to drag him the whole way (or pick him up and carry him out), because he and I had to leave that room ASAP so church could get started without interruption, and if he wasn't going to listen to reason then I would overpower him for that reason.
I hate to think how it would have gone if I had just stood there going "Come on, honey, it's time to go. Oh, come on, don't be angry now. See everyone looking at you?" and so on. Who knows how long we could've been in the way? And any extra time I took there would have been that much less he got to sleep downstairs.
I'm not discussing all forms of spanking or for all reasons. I specifically defined what I mean by "spanking" back in the first post I made, because it covers way too broad a range to be meaningful when not defined. (Sadly, that's like 8 pages back. And I made my post way too long to boot.)
You seem to be accusing me of painting all spanking with a broad brush. I accuse you of the same thing. Hence we appear to be at an impasse.
Eh, I went back and dug it up anyway. Useful to keep definitions in view.Kilyle said:
I also noted in that first post that my reasoning for spanking was to "get the attention fast, remind the kid who's in charge, force them out of the negative spiral, and move them back toward a positive relationship with the family." It's something my mom stressed: It's always about bringing them back toward a positive relationship with the family.
And yes, not all spanking is for that reason. But this is the definition I arrived at after many years' contemplation, and it's the one I support.
You said you dragged your nephew across the floor of the church. Were you by any chance forcing him to go to church? If that's the case then I see no problem with the snapping, as he was forced to do something that was completely unnecesary.Kilyle said:
I understand what you did and I understand you had to drag him away. It was a tight situation and you did the right thing. I'm glad you took the time to actually discuss his behavior instead of hitting him.
Again, I wasn't there so I'm not sure what exactly made the kid snap. I still disagree with using any sort of force against a child but at the same time at least you didn't use violence. You didn't slap him, you didn't beat him. You dragged him out to a neutral location and discussed his behavior. Bravo.
Kilyle said:
Spanking is defined as "the act of slapping on the buttocks". What you did there was not spanking. You acted the best you could given the circumstances.
I was spanked, not often though. I don't see that it has done any harm or good specifically. I think it was more of the general parenting style of actually punishing kids for things that they do. I see the way some children and teens behave and it is clearly from bad parenting.
Nah, he goes with us almost every Sunday. Spends the weekend with us, and usually has no problem with it. And he'd been perfectly helpful right before church (we get there early and set up, and he gets to help set up the refreshment table and the electronics), which is part of how I worked out that he wasn't being disobedient for any specific reason, just that he was tired.AndyFromMonday said:
Huh. I guess you're a little more reasonable than you seem in some of your posts. I know a lot of people in my extended family who'd get really upset with even that amount of force.
If I implied that they were the same, I didn't mean to. I used that example, since it happened recently, to point out how a spanking should work as well: Stop the negative behavior and get the kid back to a state where you can sit down and calmly discuss things.
I don't spank Darian (he's my nephew, not my kid directly), but anyway his behavior there wasn't bad enough to warrant it. But the elements are similar: An adult overpowers a kid to assert authority, put a stop to the negative behavior, and bring both parties back to the table like civilized people.
I disagree with that definition. It still involves inflicting pain. In fact, I disagree with spanking as a whole. Using mild physical force to control your child like keep him near you whilst at the store or, like you did, dragging him out of that situation I can agree with. But I can never agree with using actual force to control the child aka spanking or beating him.Kilyle said:
Again, bravo. You figured out he was just tired and used minimal force to control him. I cannot help but agree with this behavior. What I do not agree with is using actual force to control him, like spanking, beating, slapping etc.Kilyle said:
oh yes. it DEFINITELY worked on me. because as a child... we dont know right from wrong, and we'll continue to do wrong (as we are naturally programmed to do) unless someone tells us we're wrong
but without some sort of physical punishment, what's to keep the child from doing it again?
spanking reassures that the child won't do it again, and if they do? just spank them again.
rule of thumb though: NEVER spank when you're angry. That leads to abuse.
but without some sort of physical punishment, what's to keep the child from doing it again?
spanking reassures that the child won't do it again, and if they do? just spank them again.
rule of thumb though: NEVER spank when you're angry. That leads to abuse.
I think spanking is appropriate as a punishment to be used in moderation as well as alongside other punishments according to occasion and severity.
Physical punsiment in the form of spanking should be reserved for more severe situations and not used as a universal solution. My parents spanked me as a child and I thank them for it, I used to be a bit of a bully in my preschool to grade one years with little to no empathy for other children when I hurt them. Due to my size advantage I had little retaliation from the kids, my parents spanked me and I made the connection between physical violence equals physical pain.
Now I have several groups of friends and all of them know that I would never hurt a fly or lose my temper. My parents could have talked out the problem with me, but somehow I doubt it would have been quite as effective. For parents who punish there kids without physical violence, good for them, but it comes down to 'Diplomacy is great, when it works.'
Physical punsiment in the form of spanking should be reserved for more severe situations and not used as a universal solution. My parents spanked me as a child and I thank them for it, I used to be a bit of a bully in my preschool to grade one years with little to no empathy for other children when I hurt them. Due to my size advantage I had little retaliation from the kids, my parents spanked me and I made the connection between physical violence equals physical pain.
Now I have several groups of friends and all of them know that I would never hurt a fly or lose my temper. My parents could have talked out the problem with me, but somehow I doubt it would have been quite as effective. For parents who punish there kids without physical violence, good for them, but it comes down to 'Diplomacy is great, when it works.'
AndyFromMonday said:
by your definition from earlier posts, that's still inflicting pain, yanking a kid by the arm and having his skin get burned by being dragged across the floor? preposterous.
now i would have originally quoted where you quoted me, but seeing as how you got put on probation for that, and you have yet to accept anything that anyone else has said against your arguement, i guess that just will never happen, so im glad that it works for you and your dad, thats amazing, but it will not work for everyone in the same manner. it just will not, i have worked at literally DOZENS of daycares/pre schools throughout our county (i did classes for toddlers) (i never ever disciplined, but that didn't stop parents/teachers) and no kid was the same, nor did any kid react the same to authority, and alot of teachers tried your method, but that hardly worked. ever. most kids would pretend they actually gave a care then immediately go back to doing whatever they were doing wrong.
He used minimal force to control the child. I see nothing wrong with that. It was a tight situation with no other way to control him. Stop attempting to ridicule my argument. It won't strenghten yours.gmaverick019 said:
You're right. All children are different. Some might not respond to spanking, some might and some might just get traumatized. It's not up to the parent to decide whether or not spanking is the appropiate way to discipline their child since they aren't experts and might just end up traumatizing him if they're wrong. So, if you believe spanking is the only way to discipline a child then I suggest you have a talk with a psychiatrist. If that psychiatrist proves without a doubt that your child will only respond to spanking then by all means, beat the living shit
out of him. Until then, stop treating them like dogs and stop treating every child the same. Isn't that what you're saying, that every child is different? Well you sure as hell are treating each and every one the same way by assuming that spanking will work for each and every one. You rididicule my argument and tell me how I'm ignorant for not considering this but you're doing the exact same thing.
A non violent approach on the other hand will not traumatize the kid. If it's truly not working then that's what therapy is for. "Hey doc, I can't comunicate with my kid. What should I do?" and that doctor will analize the situation and give you the answer you were looking for. And when that answer is spanking then spank away. I can guarantee you that will never happen.
but he did use force? did he not? you were ridiculing others for using any kind of force in your previous posts, saying that any kind of force was not needed. I am merely pointing out your change in stance. especially when 57% of the poll doesn't agree with your extremist stance apparently.AndyFromMonday said:
when did i EVER say that spanking would work for every single child? when did i ever even get close to that? my WHOLE ARGUMENT was that every child is different, and that not every method works on every child. i applauded your dad (yes i did in fact, go check my previous posts) for doing what he did, that's amazing, but like i said, it wont work for EVERYONE. did i ever say it wont work? nope, not once. so no, i am not doing the exact same thing, i was merely pointing out to you, that your extreme faith of your one singular way is not necessarily true for everyone, and that you were trying to destroy anyone elses opinion on the matter that did not agree with yours, is that not why you got put on probation?
I was ridicouling others for using violence, not force. Even if I don't agree with using force here it was mild at most. He had to act and he acted.gmaverick019 said:
Also, extremist views? I can't believe wanting more rights for children means I'm an extremist. I'm guessing those who advocate men's rights are also extremists to you.
gmaverick019 said:
You are advocating the use of spanking are you not? How parents should have the right to raise their children how they see fit. You ignored any of the cons and focused on the pros "Short term relief". BY ignoring the cons but also advocating spanking you're essentially saying that spanking will do no long term damage to certain kids and that it's A-OK to at least try it and stop later, like that's even possible.
Yes, my method might not work for everyone BUT if it doesn't work you can easily switch. There's no chance of any sort of damage being done to the kid and you can just as easily switch to something else. Or you could just visit a psychologist, talk to him/her about your problems and plan a course of action. My method has no risks. Yours does.
Also, I was put on probation for insulting another member. My only insult to him, calling him a smug little fuck for concluding that spanking is a good disciplining method after analizing a poll made on a forum.