Poll: Inclusion Vs. Exclusion

[RelexCryo]

People can't seem to stop talking about feminism and big boobs in games. I wanted to share my perspective on the issue. Most feminists are intelligent, reasonable people, and I think the industry should work towards being more inclusive. The problem I have with many journalists complaining quite vocally on the issue is that they completely fail to grasp one simple point- the disparity between inclusion and exclusion.

Let me clarify: Women with big boobs exist in real life. In real life, the female gender is diverse, and consists of women with small boobs, medium boobs, big boobs, women who are short, women are tall, women who are average height, women who are dark skinned, light skinned, olive skinned, women who are young, women who are middle aged, women who are old, women who are chubby, women who are curvaceous, women who are skinny, and women who are athletic. Diversity is the nature of real life.

And yet, when games have a diverse cast of many different body types- like Soul Calibur, which had many women who were flat chested or small boobed- people complain about the inclusion of women with big breasts, complaining that this is offensive to women. Think about that for a moment.

This is, quite literally, a complaint that including a group of people who exist in real life- people who solve mathematical calculations, cuddle cats, watch horror movies, sing along to Dr. Horrible, do gardening, sail boats, restore classic cars for fun, and who generally go about the business of being human, is offensive, simply because of what their breast size is.

Again, just think about that. There is a world of difference between saying that the video game industry should be more diverse, and saying that it should exclude a group of human beings who exist in real life. There is a world of difference between arguing in favor of exclusion and inclusion. And the argument that it they should be excluded because they are generally designed to appeal to heterosexual men is false as well. Should bishounen be excluded because they are designed to appeal to heterosexual women, or should bishounen be included in the diversity of the artistic medium of video games? Should characters designed to appeal to homosexual men be excluded, or included?

Some people will respond with the childish argument that not every character or game should be sexualized. The flaw in that argument is that many games today mostly include characters who are not sexualized (Fallout 3/NV, Half Life, Rainbow Six, and countless others) and yet people still complain. Most of the complaints and demands I see are not for the existence of non sexualized female characters, but for the non existence of sexualized female characters, and not for the inclusion of women with small boobs, for the exclusion of women with big boobs. There is a world of difference between saying there should be more women who are not sexualized, and demanding that there be no women who are sexualized.

Part of the problem with the whole debate is that while most feminists are intelligent, reasonable people, many of the loudest and most vocal journalists claiming to be feminists are bigots demanding exclusion, rather than reasonable people asking for inclusion. Do you agree? What are your thoughts on the issue?

 

[shadowuser10141]

The Bottom Line.

Games like DOA or DC have a right to exist in the same way that pornography or bikini models have a right to exist.
You cannot demand that they go away in the same way that PETA can't force us to all be vegans.

 

[Lilani]

-snip-

The difference is we aren't talking about people. We're talking about characters. People are random creatures with random features and personalities. Characters are people who are hand-crafted from the ground up, with every aspect of their character and existence pre-planned with extensive detail. A character with big boobs is more of a statement than a character with medium or small ones because it was a conscious decision somebody made. And not only that, it's rare that a female character has big boobs and doesn't dress provocatively to show them off. I know several women with large boobs, and only a couple of them do a lot of showing off of their cleavage (and even then it's mostly when they're going out). Having big boobs is one thing. Dressing like this is another:

Spoiler

The existence of Ivy's boobs are a physical feature. How she dresses and how much she shows them off speaks to her character, and obviously that sort of a character who wants to have the bare minimum of her breasts covered at all times is not going to appeal to women. So the problem here isn't necessarily the size, but how they're being used and why they are there. Again, every single feature is a decision, and speaks to the creator's intentions and preferences. So while in reality we may not immediately judge a woman with large breasts as slutty or sexualized (as long as she isn't dressing in a slutty or sexualized manner), the features of a character come with a bit more weight, and thus have a MUCH larger impact on how the character is judged and received by the viewer.

 

[RelexCryo]

-snip-

The difference is we aren't talking about people. We're talking about characters. People are random creatures with random features and personalities. Characters are people who are hand-crafted from the ground up, with every aspect of their character and existence pre-planned with extensive detail. A character with big boobs is more of a statement than a character with medium or small ones because it was a conscious decision somebody made. And not only that, it's rare that a female character has big boobs and doesn't dress provocatively to show them off. I know several women with large boobs, and only a couple of them do a lot of showing off of their cleavage (and even then it's mostly when they're going out). Having big boobs is one thing. Dressing like this is another:

Spoiler

The existence of Ivy's boobs are a physical feature. How she dresses and how much she shows them off speaks to her character, and obviously that sort of a character who wants to have the bare minimum of her breasts covered at all times is not going to appeal to women. So the problem here isn't necessarily the size, but how they're being used and why they are there. Again, every single feature is a decision, and speaks to the creator's intentions and preferences. So while in reality we may not immediately judge a woman with large breasts as slutty or sexualized (as long as she isn't dressing in a slutty or sexualized manner), the features of a character come with a bit more weight, and thus have a MUCH larger impact on how the character is judged and received by the viewer.

Do you think that characters who are designed to appeal to women or to gay men should be excluded though? This goes back to the same question- do you think sexuality should be excluded? Do you think that characters should be exclusively non sexual?

 

[EternallyBored]

aaaaand swing and a miss.

I have been lurking this forum for years and I have yet to see a single feminist supporter on here call for excluding big breasted women from video games, maybe advocating for less to make room for a wider variety of female body types, but never for exclusion. Are there extreme feminists out there that do advocate for this, sure, but I mostly see them on Tumblr so your posting this diatribe on the wrong forum. Seriously this is like me posting about how arguments against feminism are wrong because some wackos on Freerepublic are posting about how video gaming should be a male only hobby and women should just stay out entirely. Do such people exist, yes, but basing your argument around your opponent's most extreme minority is a pointless exercise as your arguing a point most of your opponents already agree with except a minority that the majority mostly ignores anyway.

So 3/4ths of your post was pointless as you were making a point pretty much everyone here is going to agree with. Lets start with the rest of your post where you actually argue something that people here will actually disagree with. Out of your listed game examples you've pretty much listed series that haven't had entries in years, and for any you can list I can list a counter-example. The problem with your second to last paragraph is that it's subjective, you say there's plenty of non-sexualized games, others will say there's not enough, it's all going to come down to where the individual draws the line. It gets even worse for fans of certain genres, Fallout 3 having normal women is a cold comfort if your a fan of fighting games or MMOs (a genre quite popular among female gamers).

As for your last paragraph, yes there are extremist feminists, just like there are extremist everything else, your not supposed to argue with them as it means you are purposely ignoring an opponents reasonable arguments so you can try and dismantle easy targets that noone takes seriously anyway.

So yes congratulations you've hit the lowest hanging fruit on the tree, and you created a new topic for it too, why couldn't this have gone in one of the three other sexism threads currently running again? I enjoy a good discussion, but we should at least try to keep the board as uncluttered as possible.

 

[RelexCryo]

aaaaand swing and a miss.

I have been lurking this forum for years and I have yet to see a single feminist supporter on here call for excluding big breasted women from video games, maybe advocating for less to make room for a wider variety of female body types, but never for exclusion. Are there extreme feminists out there that do advocate for this, sure, but I mostly see them on Tumblr so your posting this diatribe on the wrong forum. Seriously this is like me posting about how arguments against feminism are wrong because some wackos on Freerepublic are posting about how video gaming should be a male only hobby and women should just stay out entirely. Do such people exist, yes, but basing your argument around your opponent's most extreme minority is a pointless exercise as your arguing a point most of your opponents already agree with except a minority that the majority mostly ignores anyway.

So 3/4ths of your post was pointless as you were making a point pretty much everyone here is going to agree with. Lets start with the rest of your post where you actually argue something that people here will actually disagree with. Out of your listed game examples you've pretty much listed series that haven't had entries in years, and for any you can list I can list a counter-example. The problem with your second to last paragraph is that it's subjective, you say there's plenty of non-sexualized games, others will say there's not enough, it's all going to come down to where the individual draws the line. It gets even worse for fans of certain genres, Fallout 3 having normal women is a cold comfort if your a fan of fighting games or MMOs (a genre quite popular among female gamers).

As for your last paragraph, yes there are extremist feminists, just like there are extremist everything else, your not supposed to argue with them as it means you are purposely ignoring an opponents reasonable arguments so you can try and dismantle easy targets that noone takes seriously anyway.

So yes congratulations you've hit the lowest hanging fruit on the tree, and you created a new topic for it too, why couldn't this have gone in one of the three other sexism threads currently running again? I enjoy a good discussion, but we should at least try to keep the board as uncluttered as possible.

The dragon's crown controversy is quite literally over people complaining about the big breasted sorceress design/big butt Amazon design. Jimquisition made several episodes about it. Hence, it seemed relevant. I suppose it's true that the games I listed are a few years old. I could list more recent ones, but I preferred to list the ones I find fun, and Skyrim is not my cup of tea. That said, I appreciate you giving your opinion.

 

[Lilani]

Do you think that characters who are designed to appeal to women or to gay men should be excluded though? This goes back to the same question- do you think sexuality should be excluded? Do you think that characters should be exclusively non sexual?

I think the most appropriate character for the situation should be made. The problem with most sexualized females in games is they're made as cheap eye candy to aim for that 12-30 year old straight male demographic. They aren't made because that was their creator's vision for them, their features and dress are nothing more than checkboxes on a flowchart.

Sometimes a sexualized female works (Jessica Rabbit is one of my favorite cartoon characters, for example), and sometimes it doesn't. In Jessica Rabbit's case, her looks were used as a specific story element. She didn't exist to draw the male gaze, she existed to make a point and to fill a very specific role in the narrative[footnote]She was more or less a red herring--her looks made it easy to believe she had cheated on Roger and that she was a villain, when really she was a victim as much as he was, and she was completely monogamous. Her appearance was more or less teasing the audience, making fun of them for judging a book by its cover.[/footnote].

So I guess my answer is, I don't like your question, at least the way it's worded. This shouldn't be about systematically "excluding" or "including" anybody. This should be about encouraging devs to make the best game possible. Using manipulative and shallow elements like sexualized characters to attract attention and sell copies doesn't help anybody. If the big breasts and bikinis have a specific reason for being there then fine, but they shouldn't be used as window dressing or cheap marketning.

 

[Smooth Operator]

I think you should take this to the politics section where it can happily devolve into a shouting match.
As long as this topic has people spaz out uncontrollably I quite frankly will not waste my time, once everyone is ready to be civil about it then we can talk.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Soul Calibur? A diverse cast?

I suppose you're right, some of them have their butt on show rather than their tits.

It's not about the inclusion of these body types, it's the exclusion of most other ones.

aaaaand swing and a miss.

I have been lurking this forum for years and I have yet to see a single feminist supporter on here call for excluding big breasted women from video games, maybe advocating for less to make room for a wider variety of female body types, but never for exclusion. Are there extreme feminists out there that do advocate for this, sure, but I mostly see them on Tumblr so your posting this diatribe on the wrong forum. Seriously this is like me posting about how arguments against feminism are wrong because some wackos on Freerepublic are posting about how video gaming should be a male only hobby and women should just stay out entirely. Do such people exist, yes, but basing your argument around your opponent's most extreme minority is a pointless exercise as your arguing a point most of your opponents already agree with except a minority that the majority mostly ignores anyway.

So 3/4ths of your post was pointless as you were making a point pretty much everyone here is going to agree with. Lets start with the rest of your post where you actually argue something that people here will actually disagree with. Out of your listed game examples you've pretty much listed series that haven't had entries in years, and for any you can list I can list a counter-example. The problem with your second to last paragraph is that it's subjective, you say there's plenty of non-sexualized games, others will say there's not enough, it's all going to come down to where the individual draws the line. It gets even worse for fans of certain genres, Fallout 3 having normal women is a cold comfort if your a fan of fighting games or MMOs (a genre quite popular among female gamers).

As for your last paragraph, yes there are extremist feminists, just like there are extremist everything else, your not supposed to argue with them as it means you are purposely ignoring an opponents reasonable arguments so you can try and dismantle easy targets that noone takes seriously anyway.

So yes congratulations you've hit the lowest hanging fruit on the tree, and you created a new topic for it too, why couldn't this have gone in one of the three other sexism threads currently running again? I enjoy a good discussion, but we should at least try to keep the board as uncluttered as possible.

I'll just repost this out of laziness.

 

[TehCookie]

I believe one of the main reasons people complain about big breasted characters is because they dress like strippers and have the personality of a blow-up doll. That's why when I'm taking the debate seriously I ask for better characters, because most characters that need cheap sexualization aren't good characters. Just because someone is flat doesn't mean they're not sexualized either, you still have the DFC or loli characters.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I think you're confusing the difference between sexy and sexualised.

There's a place for games that are sexy, though a lot of people aren't cool with them.

Even a character that *cough* straddles the line, such as Bayonetta, can be considered sexy rather than sexualised.
Yes, she wears her own hair as an outfit. Yes, she's naked or even gets off when doing certain finishers.
But it never seems out of place.

Speaking of DoA, the same characters are in the fighting game as the beach volleyball game.
In the context of beach volleyball, ok maybe it's a bit much, but it makes sense.
In the context of kicking each other in string bikinis and high heels ... what the fuck.
Going barefoot to play volleyball? That's what you do. Doing a spinkick with stilettos on? WTF.

Irl, beach volleyball is an Olympic sport. It's legit (though competitors tend to dress more sensibly, due partially to the odds of wardrobe malfunctions).
The videogame equivalent of mudwrestling? Not so much.

The point is, if a lot of people are questioning "why is this here?" it's literally questionable.

 

[shadowuser10141]

I think you're confusing the difference between sexy and sexualised.

There's a place for games that are sexy, though a lot of people aren't cool with them.

Even a character that *cough* straddles the line, such as Bayonetta, can be considered sexy rather than sexualised.
Yes, she wears her own hair as an outfit. Yes, she's naked or even gets off when doing certain finishers.
But it never seems out of place.

Speaking of DoA, the same characters are in the fighting game as the beach volleyball game.
In the context of beach volleyball, ok maybe it's a bit much, but it makes sense.
In the context of kicking each other in string bikinis and high heels ... what the fuck.
Going barefoot to play volleyball? That's what you do. Doing a spinkick with stilettos on? WTF.

Irl, beach volleyball is an Olympic sport. It's legit (though competitors tend to dress more sensibly, due partially to the odds of wardrobe malfunctions).
The videogame equivalent of mudwrestling? Not so much.

The point is, if a lot of people are questioning "why is this here?" it's literally questionable.

You know exactly why DoA exists.

Again with everybody I always ask the same question. Do you want it banned or are you just asking for a more diverse range of female characters?

 

[Danceofmasks]

You know exactly why DoA exists.

Again with everybody I always ask the same question. Do you want it banned or are you just asking for a more diverse range of female characters?

It's not about banning.
It's about class.
Or zoning, if you will.

There is a place for brothels.
However, you don't expect to see them in shopping complexes.

 

[shadowuser10141]

You know exactly why DoA exists.

Again with everybody I always ask the same question. Do you want it banned or are you just asking for a more diverse range of female characters?

It's not about banning.
It's about class.
Or zoning, if you will.

There is a place for brothels.
However, you don't expect to see them in shopping complexes.

DoA isn't a porn game. It's women in bikinis.
There are women in bikinis in magazines all the time. (Not porn magazines)

 

[Danceofmasks]

DoA isn't a porn game. It's women in bikinis.
There are women in bikinis in magazines all the time. (Not porn magazines)

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Ok, let me use a real gaming example.

There are those ads for Wartune floating around a bunch of sites, right?
Just women wearing somewhat skimpy outfits. No big deal?
You won't see those ads here.
Ok, fine, maybe those ads completely misrepresent the game, but still they're all over the place.
But, if you stick to the "classier" side of gaming websites, you will never see one.

It's what class is about.
There's a reason some furniture stores say they're "exclusive" as a selling point.
They're not actually exclusive, but due to price or image or whatever, you'd never see those couches on the other side of the train tracks.

 

[shadowuser10141]

DoA isn't a porn game. It's women in bikinis.
There are women in bikinis in magazines all the time. (Not porn magazines)

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Ok, let me use a real gaming example.

There are those ads for Wartune floating around a bunch of sites, right?
Just women wearing somewhat skimpy outfits. No big deal?
You won't see those ads here.
Ok, fine, maybe those ads completely misrepresent the game, but still they're all over the place.
But, if you stick to the "classier" side of gaming websites, you will never see one.

It's what class is about.
There's a reason some furniture stores say they're "exclusive" as a selling point.
They're not actually exclusive, but due to price or image or whatever, you'd never see those couches on the other side of the train tracks.

The banner at the top is adchoices which picks ads based on your browsing history. Maybe they filter out certain ones on this site.

Are you asking for a high-end Gamestop that doesn't sell DoA.
This reminds me of the whole "games being taken seriously" inferiority complex.

 

[Danceofmasks]

The banner at the top is adchoices which picks ads based on your browsing history. Maybe they filter out certain ones on this site.

Are you asking for a high-end Gamestop that doesn't sell DoA.
This reminds me of the whole "games being taken seriously" inferiority complex.

I already snub the equivalent of Gamestop 'cos they're beneath me.
See how classism works?

Seriously though, I spend thousands a year on gaming, and the retarded practices of large retail chains don't get any of it.

Classism happens everywhere. Even in fighting games.

Here's an example.
Long Island Joe had a sponsorship lined up from Brazzers ... but it fell through because a whole bunch of people decided the FG community is better than that.
Gootecks chatted with their rep and discouraged them.
The Evolution tournament said they'd refuse to allow the Brazzers tag next to Joe's name, or allow him to wear Brazzers merchandise on stream, etc.
Before the deal fell through, Brazzers were all set for running their own fighting game tournaments, etc. I mean, the FG community is almost entirely male, why shouldn't porn get involved, right?

Why aren't we including them, just as an option?
If nobody else is going to pay Joe to play games, why should we deny him the livelihood?

'cos class.

 

[shadowuser10141]

The banner at the top is adchoices which picks ads based on your browsing history. Maybe they filter out certain ones on this site.

Are you asking for a high-end Gamestop that doesn't sell DoA.
This reminds me of the whole "games being taken seriously" inferiority complex.

I already snub the equivalent of Gamestop 'cos they're beneath me.
See how classism works?

Seriously though, I spend thousands a year on gaming, and the retarded practices of large retail chains don't get any of it.

Classism happens everywhere. Even in fighting games.

Here's an example.
Long Island Joe had a sponsorship lined up from Brazzers ... but it fell through because a whole bunch of people decided the FG community is better than that.
Gootecks chatted with their rep and discouraged them.
The Evolution tournament said they'd refuse to allow the Brazzers tag next to Joe's name, or allow him to wear Brazzers merchandise on stream, etc.
Before the deal fell through, Brazzers were all set for running their own fighting game tournaments, etc. I mean, the FG community is almost entirely male, why shouldn't porn get involved, right?

Why aren't we including them, just as an option?
If nobody else is going to pay Joe to play games, why should we deny him the livelihood?

'cos class.

I thought we agreed that DoA isn't porn. So why are we talking about porn?
I agree Porn should be kept in it's adult ghetto.

How do you propose we "zone" DoA?

 

[Danceofmasks]

I thought we agreed that DoA isn't porn. So why are we talking about porn?
I agree Porn should be kept in it's adult ghetto.

How do you propose we "zone" DoA?

When did we agree to anything?
Just 'cos it's not applicable in common parlance, doesn't mean it's inapplicable by the dictionary definition.

Anyways, it's simple.
By doing the exact same thing as every other instance of classism.

Someone who doesn't play DoA looks down on someone who does, and the latter responds by assuming the former has his head up his ass.

League of Legends are redesigning some of their older skimpy champions.
'cos they've come to realise it's bad for the image they want to rep.

Heck, even in the competitive scene, you get classism.
I know a lot of people who think an IEM trophy is more prestigious than an MLG trophy, simply because by MLG putting up CoD as a competitive game, it can't be taken seriously.

 

[thebakedpotato]

Wait... Seriously, I have a warning for that post?

A friend of mine is on a heavy duty pain regimen due to her breast size. She's barely lucid at times because of it. And the insurance fucks her out of getting a reduction. Another friend had to get a breast reduction due to the back problems that they caused.