Poll: Is 40K serious?

[Soviet Heavy]

...I actually prefer 40K as it is now: a science fiction universe based on the worst case scenario nearly always being the only scenario...

Tell me, how is WH40k a sci-fi? Only because it's set into the future? It's about as sci-fi as "Star Wars".

I find the whole ordeal of good versus evil extremely ridiculous. The fact that it's set 38k years into the future makes it even more ridiculous.

Not as much good versus evil, as "assholes" versus "every other asshole"

Well, that actually makes it even more ridiculous. ^_^

And that's why I love it. There are people who take it way too seriously, and then there are people who see an entire race of green soccer hooligans who paint their vehicles red because they believe that red ones go faster.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Doesn't sound terribly interesting, does it? Needs are met, but it all exists to keep the wars going. And if our unfortunate scribe above happened to die on his way to work the next day, no one would mourn him. He'd be immediately replaced, and the big machine would keep on turning.

Sorry, can't agreee with that suggestion. It's your WH40k and if you're happy with it then by all means, have fun.

As for me, i can't accept this vision. It may be ok for some mad country hidden behind steel curtain, but not for 40 000 years old empire spanning over distances measured in thousands of lightyears. Half of that Imperium shouldn't neither know about some "crusade" taking place God-Emperor knows where, nor really care. "Really... Orks ? Living, animated corpses ? There are no such things. It's superstition".

Suggestion, what? Color me confused.

And most of the Imperium doesn't believe in Chaos or the like, mostly because they've never seen it. Sure, they hear the preaching of the church, but to them its similar to stories about the Devil to Christians. Xenos are a more real threat, but most citizens have never seen an Alien, and full of misconception and misinformation about their enemies (Eldar have hollow bones and will break if they move too fast, Tau are monkeys, Orks are mostly fat and not as strong as they look, etc.) The Imperial Guardsmen's Uplifting Primer is hilarious for this kind of stuff.

As for the Crusades and wars being fought, the only real effect that has on most people is propaganda (YOU ARE WORKING SO OUR BOYS CAN KEEP FIGHTING!, PURGE THE XENOS, etc.) and information from the church and Administratum. Many worlds also pay tithes in the form of Imperial Guard recruitment, so there is that too. On the whole, your average citizen is EXTREMELY ignorant of what the actual galaxy is like in 40k verse, which is exactly how the Imperium wants it. Curiosity and information breed dissent and heresy, which leads to Chaos.

 

[MadMechanic]

I can see that the 'American' argument might rile some feathers. In my defence, I'd say that the British have always done self-deprecation and sarcasm better than most, and that British humour tends to get a little lost on the other side of the Atlantic. Case in point, the number of Americans who think 40K is supposed to be a straight-faced depiction of a future universe, despite the presence of a race who can make their vehicles go faster by painting them red.

While a lot of people don't get the humour in the universe, I notice that a lot of American players mistake it for the same sort of military-worshipping, gun-porn sci-fi that is so prevalent in American culture. They're used to a different kind of science fiction at the end of the day.

When you put it like that, I feel more inclined to agree with you. I've noticed on forums like Whineseer that it's usually the non-Brit players who say "X is too silly/stupid".

I feel one of the reasons people don't like 40K marines is that they aren't like marines in popular culture. They aren't American marines - they aren't all bro-fisting each other and yelling 'ooooh-rah!' at each other every other minute.(Looks at Halo's UNSC and Gears of War)

...holy shit! I never saw the connection between Ghazgull Thrakka and the Iron Lady. It makes perfect sense. One was a leathery-skinned orc with a taste for blood and a determination to grind industry into the ground. And the other was a character from a table-top game. Zing!

To be fair, as a Northerner and a politics/history student, I saw it pretty quick. I feel it's a shame that in the recent Ork book they haven't played that up as much.

 

[Dr Snakeman]

Setting with every planet, city complex, space station or vessel bearing name stolen from some Black Metal band ? Without any plausible economy ? With heavily armored knights dying as easily as light infantrymen ? Serious ? No. By all gods, no !

The fuck? Economy is based on forge worlds processing materials stripped from mine worlds, food is produced by dedicated agri-worlds and hosing space is provided by planets turned into vast tower blocks. Economy exists, it's just on a grand scale. Do your research, or shut up.

Let me qualify this by saying I have been a massive 40k fan for 11 years now. I have a sizeable Alpha Legion army and an in progress World Eaters army. Yesterday the stuff I ordered to finish my Goliath gang for Necromunda came in the mail. I love 40k.

But he's right about a lot of the logistics making no sense. You just have to turn off that part of your brain and accept it. For instance, the Death Korps of Krieg. They willingly sacrifice entire regiments as long as they win. They come from one planet. They can not sustain these tactics for long. But you just have to put that thought out of your mind and go with it.

In the grim darkness of the far future human beings breed like rabbits.

Well, yeah. There's not really anything to do except fuck, wait nine months for the baby, and then wait for something to come along and kill you all. And on the off chance that you do survive an Ork attack (or Tyranid, or Chaos, or your own damn government), you'll probably be really happy to be alive.

Really happy. Happy enough for some "holy god, I can't believe we made it" sex.

Then *boom*. Another kid. It's a vicious cycle.

 

[lordmardok]

Simple answer is this: the 40k Universe has elements of dark humor and just dark grit in it, same as any full fledged universe should have.

Chaos is as much dangerous as it is strange and just plain weird. If you read about the Noise Marines by the way it's pretty interesting, they're sensates, their bodies are modified and grotesquely stretched to amplify the maximum amount of sensation they get from everything, the louder the noise, the brighter the color, the more garish the contrast, the better it is to them. Do some research though please, it's quite insulting to have someone tell you that a Universe you enjoy is laughable, read up on the world, check your facts, don't just presume that you know how any universe works until you've done a little fact-finding. Read the Lexicanum, its a wikia site for the Warhammer Universe.

Yes the orks are funny, I mean seriously, cockney greenskins rampaging around the galaxy? That's fucking hilarious, they're a long time fan favorite because they're so over the top and strange, half their tek doesn't even work properly or has random effects. But pointing to them and saying 'See? UNIVERSE IS NOT SERIOUS' is taking something terribly out of context. Look at it IN CONTEXT and it changes drastically.

Orks are a race of aliens who literally are born to wage endless war. They have no other desire but to fight and kill and win. They cannot be reasoned with, the whole meaning of their existence is based on war, and they will fight and fight until either they or everyone else is dead simply because it pleases them to do so. Even if you kill them they will come back, in order to totally purge and Ork invasion you have to scorch and salt entire continents or even whole planets, damning potentially billions of lives to save trillions more.

The Eldar are not always defeated by the way, just because their armies are defeated or their leaders are slain doesn't mean their end was not achieved. They have plots with plots, they start wars between Empires just to achieve a single goal, they have no moral quandaries about sacrificing a billion lesser lives to save a handful of their own dying people.

Anyways, Sorry to get so worked up, Warhammer 40k is one of my favorite universes because it perfectly turns every conception on its head.

Tolerance is condemned, because to tolerate the alien or the heretic is to allow their influence to spread, possibly damning a whole planet or sector.

Peace is impossible because Orks live only to fight, Necrons have only one purpose, galactic genocide, Eldar care only for their own dying race, and Tyranids exist only to feast on life.

Blind faith is demanded because knowing even the name of a daemon can give it power over your mind, knowing a heresy can subvert you without you even noticing. Literally, what you don't know can't hurt you and what you do can damn your soul.

It's a universe of eternal war because violence is truly the only answer. I think that the amount of thought and effort that went into that world is worthy of some respect, don't you?

 

[Axolotl]

You've got to bear in mind just where 40K came from conceptually, I mean it's largely just typical fantasy with Star Wars tech but also with heavy helpings of Dune. However easily the biggest influence on 40K in terms of tone is 2000 AD (especially Nemesis the Warlock but not quite as preachy). Once you spot this and understand it the whole setting makes alot more sense, it's basically an exercise in camp nihilism, taking cheesy sci-fi ala Star Trek/Star Wars/Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers and so on and then making tongue-in-cheek and twisting it to be as dark as possible. Then combining this with a bunch of riffs on all the historical periods and genre styles the developers liked, filtered through artwork styled after HR Giger and Hieronymus Bosch and you end up with 40K. The whole thing is best described as a baroque characture and it take only a slight twist to remove all the satire or to make it a full on parody. And there are alot of works that do these that make it completely straight or make it a comedy with slapstick, puns and pop-culture refrences (although the slapstick involves genocide, the puns revolve around cannibalism and the pop culture is distopian literature).

So in answer to whether I take it seriously or not seriously I have to say both, simply because the setting allows for both interpretations without nessasarily falling apart.

 

[soulless-5]

the lore exists to increase the fun of a battle by giving some reason why two sides are fighting. In that respect it can either be serious (protect the holly shrine) or silly (stop an ork warboss from carving his name on a moon)

 

[Saviordd1]

HERESY!

The actual story behind 40k is pretty deep and basically can be viewed as the danger of continuous war, in 40k the imperium of man(empire of man) is on the verge of collapse after century upon century of warfare, free will is dead in favor of service to the Emperor(the state), the common people are merely tools, it's protector the space marines that are boarder-line psychotics zealots, basically it can draw parallels to what is currently going on in the world.

I find it very interesting, it has a nice mythos behind it, if the stories were novels instead of handbooks for the table top games, I think it could of rivaled star wars easily.

Anyway I enjoyed the games and can take it seriously.

I'm sorry but I can't take "KILL EVERYTHING RAJHTKJSHKJTS|HKJGFSKJGSGKJHKJ FOR THE EMPOWRERERRE" seriously at all, it has no emotion beyond "KILL FUCKING EVERYTHING" and any other emotion is normally sadness or depression.

It was made to be grim and dark so they could justify all out war for the table top game, people have blown it out of proportion, its a placeholder story to make sure that you don't question everyone dying to much.

 

[Yokai]

It depends, I suppose. Dan Abnett makes the ridiculous maximalism almost work, and Eisenhorn and Ravenor both manage to be pretty serious and surprisingly emotional in parts. Same with Gaunt's Ghosts. On the other hand, anything involving orks or written by Sandy Mitchell is probably going to be a bit more lighthearted and embrace the stupid-awesome over-the-top nature of the setting. I think it's more about who's writing it than the setting itself.

Think of Star Wars for a moment--it's about laser-sword-wielding kung fu space wizards, which is ridiculous. Nonetheless, there are humorous and much darker stories that fit into the setting. The same thing can be said for 40k, I think.

You've got to bear in mind just where 40K came from conceptually, I mean it's largely just typical fantasy with Star Wars tech but also with heavy helpings of Dune. However easily the biggest influence on 40K in terms of tone is 2000 AD (especially Nemesis the Warlock but not quite as preachy). Once you spot this and understand it the whole setting makes alot more sense, it's basically an exercise in camp nihilism, taking cheesy sci-fi ala Star Trek/Star Wars/Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers and so on and then making tongue-in-cheek and twisting it to be as dark as possible. Then combining this with a bunch of riffs on all the historical periods and genre styles the developers liked, filtered through artwork styled after HR Giger and Hieronymus Bosch and you end up with 40K. The whole thing is best described as a baroque characture and it take only a slight twist to remove all the satire or to make it a full on parody. And there are alot of works that do these that make it completely straight or make it a comedy with slapstick, puns and pop-culture refrences (although the slapstick involves genocide, the puns revolve around cannibalism and the pop culture is distopian literature).

So in answer to whether I take it seriously or not seriously I have to say both, simply because the setting allows for both interpretations without nessasarily falling apart.

Best response I've seen yet. Well done, sir.

 

[Coreless]

I don't see why people are making such a big deal about the 40k universe, its not anymore serious then Star Wars or Star Trek or any other large fiction universe out there. What is really great about 40k and also with other great fictional universes is the themes that are found throughout that can be related to our life and to the world we live in.

The stories about courage and honor in the face of insurmountable odds is something I can relate with having served in the military and grown up in a military family. The themes of sacrifice and of the toll on hearts and minds of individual soldiers that the endless wars have wrought upon the Imperium and also on the alien races like the Eldar who are a shattered and torn species that are also fighting to survive. There are also themes about madness and what the insanity of the conflicts has done to generals and government leaders who care nothing for the lives of their soldiers and their people. There are parallels to many real life ideas and politics that everyone can understand like xenophobia, totalitarianism, corporatism, artificial selection, religion, classism, moral philosophy, fanaticism and even utilitarianism.

Sure there are many things about the universe that are wacky and ridiculous like the Orks who live only for bloodshed, how is this any different from other universes? Star Trek has Klingons who are the epitiome of the warrior culture where death in conflict is the greatest honor. Star Wars has the Mandalorians who live and base their ideas and philosophy around growth through conflict and expansion.

I don't expect the 40k universe to appeal to everyone, its a grim, dark future that is so beyond anything that we can fathom but only through fiction could we ever experience or understand. There are no winners or happy endings in this universe, every soldier is but one man amongst trillions fighting for the very survival of the human race. For every system that is conquered by chaos there are hundreds that have been left desolate and lifeless in their wake. There are crusades throughout the galaxy that have been going on for centuries where the populations of hundreds of systems have been cut off and have spent multiple generations of families fighting for survival. There are thousands of human civilizations trapped by the warp that consider the Imperium and the Emperor myths because its been over a thousand years since they last heard from the Imperium. This kind of fiction is as epic as it gets, should you take it seriously...no...should you enjoy it for what it is? sure why not....

 

[Varanfan9]

Its a mix which is why I like it. They have both funny and serious stuff. The actual story and mythos is very cool but the characters are less so. I play the Tyranids so I'm more on the serious side but it varies.

 

[CrawlingPastaHellion]

Well, that actually makes it even more ridiculous. ^_^

And that's why I love it. There are people who take it way too seriously, and then there are people who see an entire race of green soccer hooligans who paint their vehicles red because they believe that red ones go faster.

Amen to that.

 

[DracoSuave]

The 40k Universe is absolutely 100% not serious. It simply cannot be taken seriously. As science-fiction goes the entire setting is merely a handwave to have random battles for rnadom factions on random terrai.

I mean... Dark Eldar are so fucking camp it's rediculous, and don't even get me started on Orks.

The thing that truly makes it not-serious is how seriously everyone in-story takes everything. You're engaging a race that pants their vehicles in, literally, 'Go-Faster Red', because it makes it go faster... and you're in a troop of men with shoulders the size of planets, wielding a boltthrower, or perhaps a flamer, against this SERIOUS MENACE THAT MUST BE PURGED FOR THE EMPEROR.

40k's fluff Cannot. Be taken. Seriously.

 

[Zhukov]

Yes, it is serious.

No, I cannot take it seriously.

 

[Zhukov]

Double post. Lah-dee-dah.

 

[DracoSuave]

In contrast, the Warhammer Fantasy universe... actually serious.

 

[SckizoBoy]

No, I can not take it seriously, because it's simply too grimdark.

Not really... I mean come on, it's so colourful, innit?! But if you just think of the setting, and what the game is, you sort of need that grimdark to justify the perpetual war. Still, while the 'present' is a right barrel of laughs for the most part, the ten thousand years' worth of backstory is actually quite serious. A lot of the less well known organisations (e.g. Astropathic Choir, can't wait for the new book due for release next month) have very serious plots attached to them that can be difficult to take lightly.

Having said that:

I think I might like the Cain novels, since I heard they like to point out the absudity of the setting.

Yep, Ciaphas, the perennial trouble-finder!

...[sub][sub][sub]And it looks as though a few are taking this discussion too seriously![/sub][/sub][/sub]

 

[Supertegwyn]

I take it somewhat seriously, but it's all in the name of fun.

 

[bl4ckh4wk64]

While I'm not too ingrained in the whole 40k universe, I do believe this belongs here.

 

[The Austin]

Anyone who answers yes doesn't comprehend the obvious satire.

Anyone who doesn't think Warhammer is satire hasn't seen a Jokaero Weaponsmith.

Spoiler