Poll: Is free will an illusion?

[RagnorakTres]

I recently reread To Sail Beyond The Sunset by Robert Heinlein and found myself wondering this. He states that "Free will is a fact, while you are living it. And predestination is a fact, when you look at any sequence from outside."

Thus, if you look at George Washington's action in forming the United States, he had to do what he did, because that's how it happened (predestination). But while he was living that sequence, he made choices (exercised his free will). Which is more real? Predestination or free will?

My thought is that free will does not exist and you will do what you do. However, there are other "universes" in which you made a different choice. Timelines, if you will.

Please at least attempt to present logical arguments, and not just quote the Bible or Q'ron or the Kama Sutra or whatever book you personally live by. I don't want this to turn into a religious discussion, although I know that it probably will.

 

[Cortheya]

been done and free will is

 

[samandingo]

Well, I like many others probably enjoy the idea that free will exists and that in any given situation there's an infinite number of possible actions I may engage in, but I know I only feel that way. I studied radical behaviorism in school for going on ten years now and I believe in determinism. Think of it this way: Atoms have set movements- we can predict where atoms will move even with our limited knowledge. Galaxies also have set movements- if we had all the requisite information (gravity, mass, speed, and these three variables of the nearby objects) we could predict where any specific galaxy would be in a hundred years. We exist between these two mediums, of atoms and galaxies, but we think for some reason we'd be any different? If a person subscribes to the validity of psychology then one must accept determinism on some level as if free will were true, then we'd never be able to predict human behavior, but we can and often do. Like galaxies, if I had enough information about a person I could successfully predict what they'd do in the next twenty minutes and twenty years.
I think many of us aren't thrilled with the menacing prospect of determinism- that essentially everything's been decided. I like the movie analogy- when I go see a movie I don't know the end but an ending will occur, only one ending will happen. If I see Lord of the Rings two thousand times Frodo will always successfully destroy the ring. But when I go see a movie, I don't know the end, so it FEELS like it's unfolding in an unscripted way. Also, just because an ending has been set doesn't mean I can't enjoy the show.

 

[Seldon2639]

I'm not answering the poll, because I feel your choices are far too limiting. Free will and predestination are two halves of the same whole. For any individual choice, your neurology determines what you will do without fail (and, hence, there is no way an alternate you put in the exact same situation could do any differently).

By, by the same coin, while the actions of each person is determined entirely mechanically, there is no predestination of what those choices will be. We could determine the actions each person would take beforehand (given a massive enough computer system to track every experience, every gene, and every change in neurobiology), so in a sense everything happens the way it's "supposed" to happen, but that's sophistry

 

[thefrizzlefry]

I;m sorry, but the idea of predestination is pretty ridiculous.
I mean, think about it. An invisible astro-zombie (God/ a higher power) made you did it? Yeah, right.

 

[Pandalisk]

Ow, Brain...pain *hissssssss* not those kinds of questions they burrrn

i was always under the impression that all this alternate realtiy crap was still in theroy no?...

was it albert einstien no? who theroised it?.. i forget

Ill refraim from going Stargate all over the thread, BUT DAMN THEY LOVED THIER ALTERNATE RELATIES!...

i do not think this is true, though it is commonly excepted, but so is everything we cant prove isnt it?..

how can something i do be replicated in a diffrent way in another universe? if this were true than this is not an alternate reality but rather its own universe in its own right.. honestly dont think to hard about it your brain will melt

 

[Rahnzan]

Free will, and not just saying that because I likes me what little free will we have left. Predestination is a load of crap (pardon). A consequence is the result of an action, if you dont perform the action, the consequence never results, it is your choice which action you take. With a few variables such as learned behaviors you can simply 'predict' what choices someone with free will is going to make. Of course that would make us slaves to our minds through our learned experiences and I wouldn't so much as call that free will if it wasn't for the fact that those learned experiences are a PART of me so...

Yes, predestination is a load of crock, being able to sort out a consequence is forethought not fate.

 

[EchetusXe]

Well technically it is predestination, seen as our minds are made up of atoms which are all subject to the laws of physics. I'm not a quantum physicist, and even if I was I don't think I could claim that at the atomic level there are laws which are always obeyed, I think I heard the laws of physics may break down at the atomic level. In which case that we would be left with randomization rather than predestination.

Those are the only two explanations at the end of it all. Doesn't change anything, even if free will is merely an illusion we still have free will in that form (the form of an illusion) and no entity operates above that, bar one becoming a slave or suchlike.

If the behaviour of things at the quantum level could be predicted with 100% accuracy then if one had the technological capabilities you could create a human being in a vacuum (not just space itself, there are particles in space but to shield the planet from all outside forces, guess that would involve blocking out light and creating an artificial light source, plonk him on a planet and know every move he would make before he died. That was if at the quantum level there was predestination.

Effectively we have free will, saying it is an illusion conjures up images of us as being mindless robots. So yeah... don't worry about it.


:samandingo and others beat me to it. I was trying to put this in laymens terms but I think they did a pretty good job anyway.

 

[jmd102993]

personaly i always prefered the idea of predestination, but i think free will is the more probibly thing. somethjiong about predestination seems to...religiony to me (not to say religions are wrong they are perfectly valid possibilitys, i just think that they arent as probibly compared to more seintific explinations of life and what happens) the problem is that htere is no way to realy prove either (at least no valid way that i kno of )

 

[ygetoff]

Neither is true. We are actually very detailed playthroughs in the game of Life (not the board game), which pan-dimensional beings are addicted to.

Or the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy explanation: we are all part of a massive experiment.
Or the Kurt Vonnegut/Cat's Cradle explanation: If there is a God, he must not care much about it, as he is making no effort to answer the Big Questions.

EDIT: I just realized the TRUE answer to the question: There isn't one. Given the incredible ability of mankind to fool itself into thinking what is best for us, the real real real answer has no real bearing on life. All it does is keep you up at night.
(You can tell I thought that one out)

 

[EchetusXe]

Ow, Brain...pain *hissssssss* not those kinds of questions they burrrn

i was always under the impression that all this alternate realtiy crap was still in theroy no?...

was it albert einstien no? who theroised it?.. i forget

Ill refraim from going Stargate all over the thread, BUT DAMN THEY LOVED THIER ALTERNATE RELATIES!...

i do not think this is true, though it is commonly excepted, but so is everything we cant prove isnt it?..

how can something i do be replicated in a diffrent way in another universe? if this were true than this is not an alternate reality but rather its own universe in its own right.. honestly dont think to hard about it your brain will melt

Well now were getting into stuff we have no hope of knowing. I think its best to approach this from the current understand we have of the present Universe we are in. Nobody has a clue what lies beyond it. Well, other Universes probably but there aren't even any probables after that. Just pure guesswork.

 

[gigastrike]

Sure, if you looked back at what happened, it would make sense to say that it was bound to happen that way because those are the choices we would have made. However, we exercised those choices out of our own free-will (note: choices).

 

[Escapefromwhatever]

One may have a set path that his or her life is most likely to take, but a single major choice could set that path on an entirely different cycle. We are conditioned into certain roles by many outside forces, and those may dictate how our lives turn out, but ultimately, we choose how we live our lives (or at least those of us that aren't tools).

I tried really hard not to bring religion up. The whole "predestination vs. free will" thing is primarily a religious argument, you know? There is no shame in bringing up religion when it is relevent to the issue, just so long as people put it into context and are civil about it.

 

[guardian001]

Thus, if you look at George Washington's action in forming the United States, he had to do what he did, because that's how it happened (predestination).

That's a major flaw right there. just because something did happen doesn't mean it had to. This example would probably be more along the lines of postdestination (yes I know that isn't a word), that being that it has to have happened because it already did. Just because only one outcome can ever actually happen doesn't mean that it absolutely had to.

 

[Marv21]

Free will is mixed with the law of chance to create fate.

Lets say you had a man, honest joe...lets say honest joe's wife was raped into going into a screening of Hotel for dogs. Lets say joe plots to kill that man, and does and goes to jail for it.

The free will is Joe
The Chance is the raping
Fate- He goes to jail


But then again, fate seems like to linear of a way to look at it. If it was fate by design that truly points to God, but if it was free will it would point to no God. But God maybe gave us free will so we could doubt that he would exist, thus giving the non-believer the chance to.

 

[Sporky111]

Predestination would imply that everything is orderly because order is the supreme influence on events (Everything is planned. Planning=Order). Therefore, with the chaotic state of the world today and throughout history, predestination does not hold any influence on people. If predestination is truth, their would be no surprises, no conflict, no accidents, etc.

 

[Easykill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74

Always, freewill. In Sociology, it's the margin of error. Chance. But that's really how our personalities are formed I guess, the chance becomes you.

 

[Mr.Switchblade]

I recently reread To Sail Beyond The Sunset by Robert Heinlein and found myself wondering this. He states that "Free will is a fact, while you are living it. And predestination is a fact, when you look at any sequence from outside."

Thus, if you look at George Washington's action in forming the United States, he had to do what he did, because that's how it happened (predestination). But while he was living that sequence, he made choices (exercised his free will). Which is more real? Predestination or free will?

My thought is that free will does not exist and you will do what you do. However, there are other "universes" in which you made a different choice. Timelines, if you will.

Please at least attempt to present logical arguments, and not just quote the Bible or Q'ron or the Kama Sutra or whatever book you personally live by. I don't want this to turn into a religious discussion, although I know that it probably will.

Most modern science agrees with you
Even M and string theory bring it all down to random chance, and I don't think that rolling a dice is exactly free will.
So probably isn't, but it is practical to act like there is

 

[The Random One]

Heed my word, infidels, for my holy book, the Kama Sutra, says... (couldn't resist)

I'm with the 'predestination is crap' field. "predestination is a fact, when you look at any sequence from outside"? This duality only exists towards a single individual, so if you are looking at it from the outside, it's an entirely different sack of jumping beans (sorry, my metaphors are coming out exagerated today).

Assume there's an ominiscient being that knows everything from the beginning of end of time. God, if you believe in God (as I do), or just a philosophical construct if you don't, which you may refer to as Sheila if you so desire. This God or "God" knows everything you will ever do. Does that mean that you aren't making your choices? No; you are making them. The fact that they are known beforehand by this entity doesn't mean that they are predestinated, it doesn't mean that they couldn't be any other way - it could, and if it was the entity would know the other way.

(This is different from an omnipotent God, you see, which is an entirely different box of tortillas, but it's also a theological argument, which I think is not the point here.)

A close analogy would be that you are able to know everything about the life of a person who's dead, but it doesn't mean that person didn't make his choices at the time they were made.

The thing about galaxies and subatomic particles... well, it comes down to this: are thoughts also caused by the normal movements of particles? If so, knowing the precise location and speed of each of these particles in a given body would allow us to predict each and every one of his decisions. However, if that is the case, in order for that person to actually be a person and not a philosophical zombie¹, that person's experiences and personality need to affect the movement of the particles in his body as well, otherwise he doesn't have a personality. So this comes up to the same model as above; even though a decision can be correctly predicted, it cannot be said to have been predestined, it's just a free-will decision being seen from a perspective where it's already been made, not unlike a past decision.


1: Philosophical zombies are undead and have 5d20 lifepoints. They deal double damage to bards and reduce the target's Agi and Wis on a critical.

 

[joystickjunki3]

Prove to me that free will exists.