Poll: Is it piracy when you already own the material?

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Wicky_42

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ProfessorLayton said:
You have the right to access the material that you paid for. You paid for one copy that got corrupted.
...
And no, they don't have different rules. Just because something isn't physical doesn't make it any less merchandise.
1) No - buying the media is to purchase a license to use said media, not to physically possess a single copy of it. Hence digital distribution allowing multiple downloads and all that good stuff. If your copy is corrupted, you've already purchased a license, have a CD key, whatever, so feel free to download the install files from somewhere else. After all, it was the publishers who chose to sell you a license rather than a product.

2) See above point about licenses - because it's data you're buying, publishers have decided that it is in fact not merchandise, it's some sort of strange pseudo-service with very different rules to what you'd expect from purchasing something in a shop.

Your arguments are flawed, especially since you're allowed to make digital backups of your software and digital media for the event that your physical media is damaged - I'd argue that it doesn't matter what source that backup comes from, if you have purchased it at any point.
 

ProfessorLayton

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TomLikesGuitar said:
ProfessorLayton said:
TomLikesGuitar said:
So if you download a game from a distributor and the files become corrupted, you don't believe you have the right to download it from another source?

Legally, you have the right to access said material. If it is found in your possession, you are in 0 legal trouble.

You need to understand that digital copies have COMPLETELY different rules, regulations, and even moral standards than physical copies.
You have the right to access the material that you paid for. You paid for one copy that got corrupted.

And no, they don't have different rules. Just because something isn't physical doesn't make it any less merchandise. The only difference is the fact that you can't hold it in your hand and there is infinite availability and even that is no excuse. What laws/rules/regulations say that stealing music is different than stealing an actual physical object? Like I said, the difference is that there isn't an unlimited amount of physical copies. When you steal a physical copy, the company loses the object and the potential profit of selling the item. If you buy the copy, they lose the object but with the actual profit making up for the item that they no longer have. When you pirate something online, the company loses only the potential profit since they aren't receiving money for the object, yet they aren't losing the object in the process. This works for one, two, three, or a million objects. If you lost whatever you bought, too bad. I've lost socks. That doesn't give me the right to go and steal socks that are just the same, even though there is a virtually infinite supply of socks in the world.

Technically, it's stealing. No one involved with the production of the DVDs this guy is talking about is being paid for two copies, they've been paid for one. Honestly, I doubt they would care. Like I said, I certainly wouldn't care if someone did it. But that doesn't change the fact that it's the same thing, whether you owned it already or not. It's still piracy. Whether it's right or wrong is a completely different matter.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you don't believe me ask a local digital rights attorney if you know one.

Right now you are comparing apples and oranges.

When you download digital material, you pay for a license to own said material. Unless it is otherwise specified in the terms and conditions, you are ALWAYS allowed to make backups of digital material. However, by your logic, this is some sort of nondescript theft.

Digital copies of previously owned material cost the company 0 dollars to produce, they cost the companies affiliates 0 dollars to distribute/advertise/whatever, they cost shareholders 0 points on the DOW; they are virtually free SO LONG AS THE INITIAL COPY WAS PAID FOR.

Think of it this way, you could back up EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF MEDIA YOU OWN on torrents, and then download them later and it has the EXACT same legal ramifications.

But really, the people in this thread are insulting their own intelligence by comparing physical goods to digital media. To say that the rules regarding the two are even remotely similar is naive and ignorant.

So yeah... sorry again, but if we are talking about legality, you're wrong.
I believe this is up to the discretion of the company being stolen from. Show me a law that says what you're saying and I'll gladly accept that I'm wrong. Some guys, like the guys at Steam, will let you buy a copy of a game and install it on a hundred million computers at the same time. iTunes lets you have the same song on 5 (I think) different iTunes. Under the same account you bought the song with. If you want to activate it on more than 5, you have to buy the song again. That doesn't sound like you're purchasing a license to use the song as you please to me. And what about video game DRM where one CD key works a certain amount of times?

And the case we're talking about here is different as well. He didn't buy a license to watch the show. He bought a physical copy of the show and wants to watch the show again, but using a different type of copy altogether. He didn't buy this online in the first place.
 

Wicky_42

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IamQ said:
If I already own a Volvo, but I can't get it to work, is it okay for me to steal a Volvo then?
Well, yes - if by 'steal' you mean clone a car identical to your own at no material cost to anyone and without depriving anyone of their own property.

Of course, if you started to sell your cloned cars then you'd undermine the industry and bring it all crashing down INSTANTLY because, fuck, you can magic cars into existence! You have any idea how expensive and complex cars are?! You can make them for free, instantly!! Holy shit!!! You're a wizard, Harry!

Perhaps you can see now the difference between digital licences and physical property -_-;
 

Wicky_42

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ProfessorLayton said:
And the case we're talking about here is different as well. He didn't buy a license to watch the show. He bought a physical copy of the show and wants to watch the show again, but using a different type of copy altogether. He didn't buy this online in the first place.
I believe you're allowed a digital backup of any digital medium you purchase. As I replied to you earlier, I don't believe that there can be any issue with where you source that backup from. I mean, if you're re-seeding a torrent you've got no legal ground, but a digital copy of a film you've purchased? And that you still have in your possession? You're on good legal grounds, me thinks.
 

ProfessorLayton

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Wicky_42 said:
ProfessorLayton said:
And the case we're talking about here is different as well. He didn't buy a license to watch the show. He bought a physical copy of the show and wants to watch the show again, but using a different type of copy altogether. He didn't buy this online in the first place.
I believe you're allowed a digital backup of any digital medium you purchase. As I replied to you earlier, I don't believe that there can be any issue with where you source that backup from. I mean, if you're re-seeding a torrent you've got no legal ground, but a digital copy of a film you've purchased? And that you still have in your possession? You're on good legal grounds, me thinks.
But he didn't back up his own files. He didn't purchase digital medium.
 

emeraldrafael

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um... I dont know.

The best way I can answer is to ask you this in return. Is it plagerism if you copy your own papers and such and dont credit it?
 

Wicky_42

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ProfessorLayton said:
Wicky_42 said:
ProfessorLayton said:
And the case we're talking about here is different as well. He didn't buy a license to watch the show. He bought a physical copy of the show and wants to watch the show again, but using a different type of copy altogether. He didn't buy this online in the first place.
I believe you're allowed a digital backup of any digital medium you purchase. As I replied to you earlier, I don't believe that there can be any issue with where you source that backup from. I mean, if you're re-seeding a torrent you've got no legal ground, but a digital copy of a film you've purchased? And that you still have in your possession? You're on good legal grounds, me thinks.
But he didn't back up his own files. He didn't purchase digital medium.
DVDs are very much a digital medium (just like games on disks), and I would think you are very much allowed to own a backup for the event that the disk gets scratched. I believe it's (however) illegal to circumvent the copy protection on the disk, so downloading a copy is probably the most legal option. He's already bought it, what's the issue?
 

CODE-D

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I think its just splitting hairs, once you do I dont think you can fault anybody else who pirates normally, but if it makes you feel better then by all means.
 

InnerRebellion

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Good first post, mate. I was thinking about something similar to this.

Now, what you describe, I see as acceptable.
What I don't see as acceptable is this: My friend, we'll call him J, is a huge pirate. Recently, he pirated Minecraft, and is encouraging everyone else in my class's gaming community to do so also. He does this every time he pirates a game, and it pisses me right off, knowing good indie devs are losing possible money because of twats like him.
 

Conza

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I think Tom's right there, people have used cars as an example of 'buy one get one free', but its just not the same. For that example to work here, it'd have to be that the first car cost the manufacturer, and you money, and the second, didn't belong to anyone and you were allowed to just take it because you had the first one (which is close to the iPod policy I think, excuding the manufacturers cost). But as that isn't the case, the car analogy is a bit off.

Also, the morality and legality, in my opinion, are completely different, on the basis that your morals may not be aligned to the law. That doesn't mean that if you think its ok, that you get away with a crime, or even should, it just means you break that law regardless.

EDIT: Thank you InnerRebellion. Your post wasn't there when I finished this.
 

Blue_vision

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Morally, no. Piracy is morally bad because you're cheating hard working people out of their money. If you've already purchased it, you've already paid their salaries.

Legally, yes. "Piracy. is. stealing. Stealing. is. against. the. law."
 

Xan Krieger

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I think it's not piracy, especially in cases where you have a disk but it's damaged beyone repair (like my copy of Metallica's Death Magnetic" CD which my old car destroyed in the CD player). I do have the music data on the CD, I just can't access it due to stupidly deep scratches. My Master of Orion 2 disc (great game BTW) snapped in half in high school, I still have the data but the disc is beyond screwed. I think in both cases I should be able to legally download them because I have the data in my house (actually within arms reach) but it's inaccessible.

This whole thing is why I LOVE steam. Disc damaged? No problem, download a new copy.
 

TheYellowCellPhone

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This rule is applied to ROMs: if you own a hard copy of the game and get it off the Internet, it's legal. I see no reason why this shouldn't be true with anything else.
 

lacktheknack

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TRR said:
When you install the Playstation emulator ePSXe, it tells you that it is illegal to run this program unless you actually own a Playstation. I always found that interesting.

BTW I do own a Playstation.
The idea is that you have to dump the BIOS from your OWN Playstation to make it work legally. If you took a BIOS off the internet, that would be illegal.

A similar question would be "I'm lazy, can I just get a BIOS off the internet and pretend it's mine, because I have a Playstation?"
 

Inuprince

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alandavidson said:
Inuprince said:
alandavidson said:

You have a very valid point, but I think there's nothing wrong with the OP's actions. Even if you do consider them illegal or bad, it's still the better of two evils, and the more positive outcome for people like you :

OP has already bought the DVD, he paid money for it, there buy increasing the profit of the company producing it, if he downloads it simply to watch it, because he doesn't have the DVD with him, it is still a far better thing for the company and the workers creating said product.
Because the other option would be, that he doesn't buy the DVD, he downloads it and never pays for it, that's no profit for the company ever. If people only pirated because they didn't have their own copy with them, there would probably be no complaing about piracy at all.

There are always such arguments, that if you have a Honda at home, you can't just take someone else's off the street while abroad, because you don't have your car with you, but I think there's a difference between a few bucks worth of entertainment software, and a car worth a thousand times more.
Plus you can always rent a car, if you need one badly, while something to watch on holiday isn't such a big dilemma. The OP could have just watched something else on the TV, that still would have meant no more extra profit for the company producing the DVD ... so I think no harm is done this way.
Your "logic" is what's killing people like me. You say, "it's not like I'm stealing a car". I get at maximum $6 per DVD sale. That's not a lot of money. There has to be thousands of sales for it to even really help me out. The argument that it's "only a couple of dollars of entertainment software" really doesn't hold water.
Ok, perhaps that was not fair I'm really sorry, but you see my main point was, that wanting to watch a film you already bought, but do not carry it everywhere you go ... there is no harm in downloading if he already payed money for it, he will certainly not buy another copy while on holiday just to watch it - because the alternative would be that he would watch something else on TV ...

Bought DVD once + downloading it just to watch it once elsewhere = 6$ for you
Bought DVD once + watching something else on TV = 6 $ for you

I think you should be happy in this case, because if someone enjoys the product so much that he wants to see it, even on his holiday because his purchased copy is at home - means you did a good job, because you created entertainment that he thought is worth his money and both his spare time on his holiday - while other people just download everything and never buy anything - now those are the people you are never going to see money from - you should be more mad at them.
 

karloss01

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it probably is legally, but in anyone else mind (my own included) I'd say its perfectly legal. for example whenever i buy an expensive book i find an PDF of it so in case my books get destroyed in any way i still have a copy.
 

The Hive Mind

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My netbook doesn't have a CD drive so I can't reupload my music to it. The companies have got my money already so they can go fuck themselves if they think I'm not getting my money's worth.
 

Helmutye

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With digital technology it has gotten almost impossible to figure out where right ends and wrong begins. I think it is largely a personal choice about what you feel is right. I have hassled my friends over pirating things before, but I would not even consider hassling you for downloading a show that you bought the $200 box set for. That being said, you will find fewer cases of moral ambiguity if you just keep it simple and only use what you bought--if you just said 'well, I'd like to watch this show but I forgot to bring it and I didn't take a copy from the discs I bought, so I guess I'll have to wait' you would be in 100% okay territory. It is a question of whether you can deal with the inconvenience of waiting a short time before watching your show.

A lot of people make excuses about piracy, and some of them are pretty clever--the vinyl argument someone used earlier, the 'I have this on vinyl but I want to put it on my iPod,' is one I'd never heard before!--but it really just boils down to a question of ease. It is really easy to pirate something, and there are virtually no consequences for doing so. Dress it up however you like, but this is the reason most people pirate: because they can get away with it.

Most of the justifications really don't hold up. For instance, take the vinyl argument: you bought that particular record, and that particular format. I'm not sure if this is old vinyl, or if you got it as some sort of collector's item, but the process of creating a record is very different than creating a digital version, and you only bought the record version. You did not buy that song, for all eternity and in all forms. If I buy a 30 year old cassette tape for $.25 at a garage sale, do I have the right to download for free every song on that tape, even though they're now selling for $1 a piece?

Imagine if we discovered a new way to make computers (say they're optronic rather than electronic) that is far superior but requires everything to be remade and reprogrammed. We all own operating systems now, and tons of software. Do we have a right to expect all that stuff for free on our new optronic computers? Keep in mind that people had to spend money to program and develop that software. In order to offer us those products, the companies spent time and money. If nobody pays them for their time and money spent, they will go bankrupt. And why would somebody spend hours and hours doing hardcore programming for free? If that's the case, they would probably program something that was enjoyable to them personally, rather than useful to society, and that would be a loss for everyone.

Now, I definitely understand the indignation a lot of people have towards software companies. They are, with very few exceptions, jerks. They claim that piracy is a much bigger problem than it actually is, bully their legitimate customers trying to combat piracy, release version after version of essentially the same product, but slightly altered to wring more money out of their customers, release deliberately incomplete versions to squeeze out more money, try to deny people the use of the ease of digital reproduction, etc. There are plenty of companies and products that probably do have it coming. But my feeling is that if you are going to use something, you should compensate the people who created it and made it available to you, because it sucks doing a lot of work and getting little or nothing in return for it. You would be mad if you spent tons of hours researching something for your boss, only to have him tell you, after you finished it, that he went onto Wikipedia and found what he needed, so your research report is unnecessary and you won't be paid for your work. So don't inflict that on other people.
 

xDarc

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Piracy is only piracy because you are not paying for a copyright. It isn't stealing. Nothing physical is taken. So the reverse should be true; if you've paid for the copyright, you aren't stealing it no matter how many copies you make or download.