Poll: Is it time for the government to kill Google?

Eclectic Dreck

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Zantos said:
If I remember correctly, in practice a monopoly is considered to be holding three quarters of the market share. You're right that searching at about 80%, and youtube is only competed against locally in places like Japan. Mail services are fairly balanced globally between Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail, as of the end of last year, with Yahoo still being most popular in the US market.
The difference with mail is that Gmail generally should not be compared to the likes of Hotmail or Yahoo. Those services are provided free at the cost of enduring some level of advertising inherent to the experience. The direct competition for actual consumer money (via a direct channel) comes from enterprise mail solutions like Exchange. Google has a tremendous advantage in that it can be deployed and maintained with little effort making it enormously popular for small businesses. While I have not data to back a claim, my experience has been that Gmail is far and away the most popular small business mail solution. Most competition I've seen comes from web hosting companies like Go Daddy.

That isn't to say that they have achieved a "monopoly" in that area of course - there is still room for others to compete for that same market share.

Zantos said:
I cannot find any info on cloud services. So it holds the search monopoly, it holds the video monopoly, but only since it's own failed and it bought another.
Buying out competition is a common way companies have achieved a monopoly in an area. It is hard to say if the case of Youtube represents anything like this as it offers a service for free and all income is indirect. Were that determined to be the case, other websites would risk the same by simply becoming too popular which doesn't seem to particularly live in the spirit of the law.

Zantos said:
The thing is that they aren't doing this by the usual dodgy business practices though. Chrome search options can use any search engine, video searches bring up results from all video hosting, android has apps for yahoo and hotmail, they aren't limiting anything on their platforms. They are as popular as they are because they are quite simply the best.
The laws don't particularly exist to protect other businesses from "dodgy practices"; they exist to ensure the consumer maintains their fundamental right of choice in the marketplace. There are plenty of laws that cover the dodgy practice angle - anti-trust laws exist purely to ensure companies never amass all the power.

Zantos said:
I definitely agree that the laws are not suitable for our technology based world though. There are plenty of instances where the law simply isn't adequate for modern times.
The problem is the laws allowing one to patent broad concepts is relatively new. Through this we find that there exist patents to concepts as vague as games that allow multiplayer players across the internet, or having an interactive loading sequence between levels or even using a picture to process checks (using your smart phone to make a deposit essentially). The latter is currently in contention between at least two companies, USAA and a former technology partner.
 

Remus

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Nov 24, 2012
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Punishing Google for, well, being Google is the same as punishing Steam for monopolizing software distribution. They have done nothing wrong to earn such ire, have been investing their profits in infrastructure projects as well as new technologies, thus adding more jobs and not simply funneling their wealth in low-risk business ventures, and we should punish the company for what it might do but hasn't done yet? Google is not evil, it's simply not. It's not an all-consuming amoeboid boogeyman that you make it out to be. Now take off the tin foil hat and come back down to earth. You're embarassing yourself.
 

Athinira

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BrotherRool said:
The US and the EU do create privacy laws to restrict this sort of thing, do you disapprove of this behaviour? Would it be fair to take it that you disapprove of governmental anti-smoking campaigns or would that be okay on the basis that they aren't restricting choice but merely trying to be persuasive.
I don't know about him, but i would like to point out that the lack of privacy laws is actually the big issue here. Google doesn't worry me, but the lack of privacy laws does.

For example, in the US, data about you isn't owned by you. This means that Google, if they wanted, could sell most of the data they have on you. Legally that is. There are actual companies in the world that specialize in the very business of collecting and selling data about people.

So the first thing is that we need privacy laws to protect us against those kind of companies. This goes beyond choice, because as consumers, we have no way to protect ourselves against those companies because we can't reasonably discern which companies are bad (eg. sells to them). Hell, sometimes, the way those companies obtain those data aren't legal.

Then there is the issue of institutions like the FBI and CIA. The FBI is currently petitioning for more surveillance laws (and Congress is apparently likely to oblige). There is also a lot of pressure to reduce anonymity on the internet because people want to reduce crime there (not that it's effective. It is ALWAYS possible to build an anonymous system on top of a non-anonymous one. Tor or Darknets are good examples, so in the end this will only end up hurting regular internet users). I don't so much mind the fact that those institutions can read my Gmail if they get a warrant as i worry about the fact that they have to almost present no evidence at all to do so. In these post-9/11 days, getting a warrant or - even easier - a Grand Jury subpoena is ridiculously easy. As much as i sometimes think some of the things they do are crazy, i actually admire the German Government. They're not afraid to stick it to the companies and tell them to control themselves. In my own country (Denmark), the government also isn't afraid to allow us to use encryption, something which several people in the US think is dangerous (remember, crypto-code was once considered weapons, and was classified as such until 2000).

Ultimately, i want to see the following:
1) More privacy laws
2) More focus on internet security to protect vulnerable databases that has our information against criminals
3) More options for punishing companies that misbehave on purpose. Edit: More options for punishing countries too would be welcome, but is much more tricky.
4) Less surveillance.
Despite the FBI's claim that more surveillance is necessary, it just goes to show that they don't understand the very business that they are in. The problem these days isn't data access, but rather data mining. In just a few days after 9/11, the FBI had managed to map the identities and doings of pretty much all of the 9/11 terrorists. This was from information they had ALL ALONG, but just didn't know what to do with until after 9/11.

Ironically they could go ask Google for help, since Google are really good at data mining techniques (in fact, that's how they made most of their money). But i guess you can only lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink.
 

Zantos

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Eclectic Dreck said:
Zantos said:
The thing is that they aren't doing this by the usual dodgy business practices though. Chrome search options can use any search engine, video searches bring up results from all video hosting, android has apps for yahoo and hotmail, they aren't limiting anything on their platforms. They are as popular as they are because they are quite simply the best.
The laws don't particularly exist to protect other businesses from "dodgy practices"; they exist to ensure the consumer maintains their fundamental right of choice in the marketplace. There are plenty of laws that cover the dodgy practice angle - anti-trust laws exist purely to ensure companies never amass all the power.
A fundamental right for consumer choice is affected by bad business practices though. What should happen is that all products are available and the most successful is the one which provides the best service. However what we increasingly see is that a company will present as an easier option, or in more extreme cases block the use of competing software on their product. This is not illegal, however clearly does impact on consumer choice.

If you look at Google, this is not something they do. On their browser and android system competing search engines and e-mail providers can be used freely and easily. Contrast this with something like the maps on Apple's iPhone, where they tried to replace it with their own, however had to re-release google's product as theirs was severely... lacking. However, had it actually worked straight out of the box, iPhone users would have been forced to use the Apple product regardless of how it compares. Though I would be interested to see if, once working, the Apple maps app will be available for android.
 

Griffolion

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DoPo said:
I think things look slightly different globally, but I know that at least Western Europe still hold iPhone in high regard, China too (which is a massive market). It's just most people, even with a contract, can't afford an iPhone. So you get a large number of people getting a cheaper phone that happens to run Android. Even at the premium end that iPhone is in, it has to compete with the Galaxy S3, HTC One X, Nexus 4, which are all compelling phones, [a href="http://www.valuewalk.com/2013/01/iphone5-vs-galaxy-s3-uk-retailers-recommend-samsung-over-apple/"]especially the Galaxy S3 here in my home country[/a].
 

Cheeseless

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Lizardon said:
Since you put an xkcd comic in your OP, I'll respond with another.

snipped comic

The fact of the matter is that Google has done nothing wrong in the eye of the public, who hold the company in very high regard. Until they do something that really pisses people off, I'd say they will continue to operate as is.
I agree completely with this. Google seem to not be evil, or are being evil on an Amoeba Boys level. I'll trust most of them with my intertubes except for the adorable idiots who try to improve the Youtube layout all the time. That's the only thing they ever did that caused me any sort of discomfort or feeling of lack of control.
 

Yeager942

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They are like the Valve of tech companies (I know Valve makes technology. Bear with me.) they partly have such large control because of their likability and superior product. I didn't want to use google chrome at first, but do you know why I switched? It was better than any other browser. I'll stop using google when they stop giving me a good product.
 

Mcupobob

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Google certainly is leading the racing when it comes to winning at capitalism. If you don't like google use something else, I do. I have Opera instead of Chrome(I do have chrome but strictly use it for netflix). I use Hotmail instead of Gmail, I still use their search engine. Because the yahoo's homepage looks like a fucking garage sale, and bing? haha.

I honestly don't mind google data mining me for information to sell me stuff I want. It not like their using their information for evil, yet. Plus their not really hurting anyone as far as I know, like Apple using foxcom, nestquick and child labor, microsoft and windows vista/8.

I'm not saying I'm a complete fan, theres a reason I don't us gmail. Google is just top top dog right now and they certainly have their competitors their just winning right now in till another company comes along and beats them. Only way the (the U.S government) I know would get involved would be if they had a monopoly and they don't so no reason to fright.
 

jklinders

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In it's current form, I feel that it is unnecessary. I think that the question seems to be about anti-trust and candidly there is still enough effective competition in all areas except maybe videos (most alternatives are not available on a worldwide basis, but as viewing youtube is free I feel that it is moot) there is viable alternatives to Google on nearly any front.

I don't have to get an Android phone, I don't have to use Google web search, I'm not using Chrome, I don't have to use their adverts etc. etc.

It's not like there is anything keeping them from reforming in a few years after the fact of a successful anti-trust breakup. Microsoft reformed a relatively short time after they were broken up only a few years ago. They don't completely dominate in quite the same way as they did but they are not trivial in any sense of the word.

I just don't feel that Google has hit any water mark anywhere for an imposed court ordered breakup.
 

BrotherRool

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aba1 said:
BrotherRool said:
And finally, I believe that people like the CIA can force Google to hand over any data they need. We're in a situation where intelligence agencies don't have to spy on people because Google has all the information they'd ever need.
Well the CIA is a US agency and if the US government got in their face it would only push another company out of the US which is the last thing they need at this point. Also what data does google have exactly that the government would be so interested in? The only thing I can think of is internet search traffic which as far as I am aware is open to the public and they are very open with their results. Hopefully you don't think Google runs most websites I hear people always saying that Google gives them all this information and such but Google doesn't give any information it only leads you to a place that can. Google is like a car it gets you to the store which has everything you need but it isn't the store it is only a way to get there.
A lot of it was listed as 'specific user' requests so I imagine they ask Google for someones profile as complete as Google has it. That could range from their search history, to almost their entire web usage if they were a Chrome user and their phone number etc if their Chrome account is the same as their phone one
 

viking97

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Nah, mostly because I find google to be a pretty friendly company. The youtube error "trained monkeys", the weekly google splash change, the hidden jokes in google chrome, all add up to make google seem like nice people.

Is that petty? yeah, but I don't care very much.
 

aba1

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BrotherRool said:
aba1 said:
BrotherRool said:
And finally, I believe that people like the CIA can force Google to hand over any data they need. We're in a situation where intelligence agencies don't have to spy on people because Google has all the information they'd ever need.
Well the CIA is a US agency and if the US government got in their face it would only push another company out of the US which is the last thing they need at this point. Also what data does google have exactly that the government would be so interested in? The only thing I can think of is internet search traffic which as far as I am aware is open to the public and they are very open with their results. Hopefully you don't think Google runs most websites I hear people always saying that Google gives them all this information and such but Google doesn't give any information it only leads you to a place that can. Google is like a car it gets you to the store which has everything you need but it isn't the store it is only a way to get there.
A lot of it was listed as 'specific user' requests so I imagine they ask Google for someones profile as complete as Google has it. That could range from their search history, to almost their entire web usage if they were a Chrome user and their phone number etc if their Chrome account is the same as their phone one
The search history based on their search engine would be do able but someones entire web usage is far fetched as Chrome wouldn't be sending that information back to google. The phone number thing as well is very specific since they would need to be using a google phone and even then it is illegal for them to give that information away.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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thesilentman said:
I'm going to watch this thread with a big nice [citation needed] tag over here. While Google does have all that power, I don't see anything that leads evidence to them being a threat. YET. Certainly may happen in the future, which is when we ***** and tear Google to pieces, but nothing now.
Well, at it's core that's the issue. Right now we have the abillity to stop Google, if trends continue, and they DO decide to pull something it might be impossible to stop them is the point. There is a tendency among people in the first world to only want to react, instead of act offensively and aggressively to remove rising threats before they can get to that point. Our attidue has basically lead to the rise of China, the decimation of the global economy, and numerous other issues because we decided to pretty much just let it happen and only act "when it was a problem". For example we're currently letting China build up a huge naval force, they just launched an Aircraft carrier, we're not talking defensive weapons here (not that they really have anyone to defend against to begin with unless they create it), and has been making incursions into Japanese territory which is of Strategic US value (we base a huge portion of our own Navy there). A decade or so ago we ignored China because "they don't have the navy or infratructure to project their armies, it doesn't matter how much they rattle their sabres and rant about racism, vengeance, and world conquest/colonization, they can't get here" now that they are developing their infrastructure to project that force we're sitting here going "meh well, we'll just ignore it until they actually build up a big enough force and invade somebody, they say they won't while they're building up so obviously that must mean their intentions for this military are purely ceremonial... yeah".

That said, while I understand the mentality, in this case I don't really think Google represents much of a threat overall, to which I'm going to write a more analytical take on the subject. Going after Google to the extent suggested would be a waste, and counter productive to seeing a finer world at this point.
 

rutger5000

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No I don't value my privacy what so ever. People that do value their privacy just need to be a bit smarter. If you fear Google is compromising your privacy, then don't use Google. If that's too much effort for you, then you shouldn't complain about your privacy being compromised.
Also their are companies or other non democratic organisations that wield way more power then Google does. Do you want to break up those organisations as well?
If you're going to worry about Google, worry about media companies. The power to shape (in my cases decide) peoples opinion is much more dangerous than the power to know what people think.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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The post I mentioned in my last response:

These kinds of tech monopolies are old news, in Google's case I don't think it's that big a deal. I was far more concerned about Ted Turner's old uber-monopoly where he pretty much tried to take over television and as many global media sources as he could to basically become the god-king of information in a much more real and tangible way for the time. I've always had mixed opinions about the "Microsoft Monopoly" which I won't get into here because it's pretty much off the subject of Google.

It's easy to look at Google and what it controls and says "they are a threat", but in the final equasion there isn't a whole lot Google can actually do on a large scale. Highly valuable and sensitive information like goverment secrets can be kept off of the world wide web, there is some unpleasant stuff there, but it isn't like Google is going to get their hands on the really nasty stuff that could do damage. "Wikileaks" and the like is about the worst Google can do on an actual global scale.

TV, Radio, and even archaic print media all also currently compete with Google in the same basic territory, and while it would love to crush these things and absorb everything onto The Internet, that more or less isn't likely to happen. Unlike the time of Ted Turner where he was more or less taking over everything that was there at the time with no other noticible competition.

Google also doesn't control much in the way of tangible resources at the moment as far as I've seen, or even heard implied. A lot of the big "problem corperations" got that way because they have more than "soft" power, along with that they have an investment in "hard power" by having interests in manufacturing, aerospace, heavy machinery, and other things. Disney for example has gotten some criticism in the past because while it presents itself as a friendly media empire, it also has very tangible assets, enough where unlike most other corperations it actually could manufacture a military entirely in house and try some insane video-game PMC (or Cyber-punk like) attack on rival businesses or attempts to take over goverments. Not that it would likely ever do this, but the point is at the end of the day the question is always "what can you actually do", and that comes down to more than your reported income and money in the bank. I'm not going to say Google doesn't have any tangible assets, but as far as I can tell they don't have enough to really worry about, nor do they have any pretensions of using them. Disney can always claim that it supports/owns all of these businesses for developing resorts and properties, and also due to it's long-standing committment to progress and development shown through things like Epcott (where at various exhibits they make a big deal about how much money Disney puts into say energy companies and what it basically runs when you visit their "energy" attraction with all the dinosaurs, which is mostly what people remember along with the corperate sponsors (Exxon I believe was a big one when I was there many years ago), as opposed to what Disney mentions they actually do (or did mention).

The threat Google mainly provides is to nations becoming invested in things like "national firewalls" to prevent outside ideas from getting in for purposes of cultural preservation. The fact that Google goes along with the internet means that to evern have a hope of security you need Google to pretty much be on your side. I actually think that nations being able to control information this way is a bad thing, and prevents people from coming together through the spread of ideas, so I support a lot of Googles efforts, while at the same time saying very nasty things about them when they have basically been bought by nations like China.

Privacy concerns are a mixed bag, to be honest a lot of the issues come from people being too stupid to understand what they put on The Internet is not a secret. That and goverments that has so far been unwilling to put much effort into personal privacy regulation, instead largely focusing on the actions of google on a larger level in bringing information in, in an general sense, than the protection of "private" information at the bottom of the food chain. Simply put I think a lot of the problems here could be solved if the goverment simply banned businesses from asking from identification and personal information, of course at the same time the reason why that doesn't happen is because the goverment itself wants to exploit that information for tracking purposes. If Google and similar companies don't provide that infrastructure the goverment is going to do it another way. Your not going to get rid of the practice entirely, which is why seemingly simple things will never happen, it's a problem that doesn't specifically come from Google.

To my way of thinking I'm not really concerned that much about Google unless it winds up merging with large corperations with a more material power base. If it buys out, or gets bought out by, or merges with, a company like Sony, Disney, etc... no matter how the financial end of things look that's when you have to worry because your merging Google's "soft" power with a lot of "hard power". This kind of information control and infrastructure combined with the abillity to make things happen in the real world (other than paying people off and the like) is where those frightening old school Cyberpunk mega-corperation ideas come from.

I have my eyes mostly on Umbrella corperations (The Resident Evil Corperation takes it's name from a type of corperation, though nowadays the joke does kind of write itself) with a lot of diverse interests. I'm less concerned about a corperation with trillions in the bank and a very specific focus, or group of related focuses, that just builds it's base of money, than I am with a compartitively humble company that might only be measured in a handfull of billions but has interests accross a wide spectrum of fields, and keeps feeding it's profits into obtaining more "hard" power rather than building up what it has in the bank. At the end of the day a board of directors that can swipe a credit card and buy a fleet of jets, are less scary than one that could in theory manufacture a fleet of jets without telling anyone, load tanks of their own manufacture on them, and attack someone without any real oversight. In general this kind of thing doesn't happen (yet) but it's been a hypothetical possibility for a very long time, and the basic building blocks for it exist, which is how a lot of the speculative fiction about futures of corperate warlords came to exist. Right or wrong, a company like Sony scares me more than Google ever will, largely because some of these multinationals could probably kill every Google employee and operation on earth inside of 24 hours if they ever wanted to, not to mention military conquests of countries, or inflict so much terrorism it would make The Middle East look pathetic in comparison. Whether they would ever do it or not is irrelevent, that's the kind of power you have to be worried about people having and potentially misusing.

Such are my thoughts. Yes I'm arguably an insane paranoid, but then again so are people who worry about Google having too much power. The big point is I think your insane paranoia is being directed at the wrong targets, and if a threat from major corperations ever DOES really meterialize it's going to be from those with "hard" power not "soft" power IT companies.
 

BrotherRool

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aba1 said:
The search history based on their search engine would be do able but someones entire web usage is far fetched as Chrome wouldn't be sending that information back to google. The phone number thing as well is very specific since they would need to be using a google phone and even then it is illegal for them to give that information away.
And it's standard policy for advertising companies to track the pages you visit (thats what the Firefox/Internet Explorer 'Do Not Track' option is meant to stop). Normally they do this by placing a cookie on your browser which advertising companies can access. That's how Google estimates your age, sex and hobbies.

Check out this
http://support.google.com/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=54050
Google Web History saves information about your activity, including pages you visit and searches on Google, as well as information about your search results (including personal results.). Over time, the service may use additional information about your activity on Google or other information you provide us in order to deliver a better experience. Also, as stated in the Google Privacy Policy, when you use any Google service, we collect additional information including your Internet Protocol address, browser type, browser language and one or more cookies that may uniquely identify your browser.
If you go to https://www.google.com/dashboard/ and log in, it will tell you some of the things Google knows about you. 50% of phones are android, it has the name and model of my phone, my unique IMEI, the date I bought my phone and the last time I used my phone

For me it has my Google+ account (that I didn't choose to set up), my youtube account, the blog I set up once and all the comments/entries on that blog, the list of bookmarks I have on Chrome, my preferences, passwords and autofill data, all my google docs (luckily I have none =D), anything I've +1'd with Google +. My entire Gmail history (I don't remember setting one up, I guess this must have been mandatory with my youtube account or something), any groups I've joined. My picassa web albums (I don't know what that is, so I'm surprised I have an account). Everything I've downloaded on the android store.

Then there's a section entitled 'My Web History', which for me seems to contain all my google searches and everything I've looked up on google maps.

This is all the information they use to help with their advertising. I can't imagine they would withhold it from a government that requested it with a proper warrant. It's worth checking out your dashboard anyway, there's a lot of privacy options it provides, it's just you have to know it's there before you think about setting them to how you wish =D
 

uchytjes

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BrotherRool said:
snipity snip snip
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! no. Lets look at the reasons why a company would be split up: It owns all the sources of a certain resource. It actively prevents competition from moving into its business. It is a COMPLETE monopoly on a certain product.

Google meets none of these requirements. It is just a good, convenient service that people can recognize as such and because of that, they buy into it making it better and bigger.
 

Darken12

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I hate the idea of the government curtailing the free market, so I wouldn't like it if it was done tyrannically, but I am very much against concentrating power into a single entity. Power should be split up as much as possible, so that nobody gets to control everybody else.

Preferably, I would love for this to happen via tax breaks to other companies, or extra taxing on Google. Nothing that outrights tells Google what to do, but that legally balances the field, so to speak.