Poll: Is KOTOR really as good as we say?

[jamail77]

Note: For the poll above just because you choose good or bad or whatever does not mean you agree with all the pros/cons it lists. It just means you agree with the good or bad statement.

I've been trying to get a friend of mine into KOTOR. I lent him it and the sequel and he only got 30 minutes into it before quitting. He told me he despised the gameplay and nothing was grabbing him right away. He also has a feeling the story is meh rather than AMAZING like everyone says. Unfortunately he also read the plot summary hence his assumption.

So, I decided to play for him to minimize the gameplay aspect and just let him choose conversations. Another 30 minutes and he still couldn't get into it. The last thing to happen was Carth and you leave the apartment and find speciesism from the Sith and get attacked. He said he'll give another 30 minutes to an hour just to be fair.

Is it really that good? Some things don't last the test of time and KOTOR most certainly is showing age in its story/character complexity. I still like it; after all it was a classic for its time and it was a different approach to Star Wars. That's it though. Can it still be the classic we say it is?

 

[jamail77]

The combat system in particular is a jumbled, confused mess awkwardly trying to fuse turn based combat and real time.

While this style worked in Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale because of the isometric viewpoint it doesn't translate well at all into 3D.

The Story is good but it isn't really inventive. [...] so the quality of said dialogue flits between awesome (HK47) to BLEGH (Evil Bastilla).

I'd say it is like the Tim Burton Batman movies. It's more positively associated with the landslide of good things that came out of it (Bioware's commercial breakthrough, the torrent of good Star Wars games that came out afterwards) than with the actual quality of the game, which is really good but hasn't aged well.

KOTOR 2 on the other hand holds up phenomenally outside of bugs and combat. So yeah...

Pretty much agree. I liked the combat system at first; it was different. After 10 hours or so I was really tired of it. Eh, not much you can do with Evil Bastilla to be honest considering her personality. I also liked whatever Jolee had to say pretty much. He's a bit underrated by fans I didn't get through much of KOTOR 2. I'll probably start over (I only got an hour in because of reasons) and finish it after I finish the first BioShock. lol Yes, still playing that old thing. 22 hours...god I stink.

 

[BrotherRool]

It has a competent story with an excellent twist (although the very beginning is pretty rocky) with a nice format for games and does a good job or exploring planets and recreating the Star Wars feeling. But it's also (aside from the twist) pretty unexceptional and actually makes a lot of the mistakes something more acknowledged as flawed (like ME3 did) for example the way Bastila

Spoiler

gets captured

is just as bad cutscene cheating as the stuff Kai Leng pulled.


The ending of the game is probably it's best point, I was really impressed when the party members started deviating their goals from yours, but overall KotoR always felt a bit plaid and boring to me because I happened to play KotoR2 first (it also meant the twist was guessable in the first hour of game. That dream sequence cutscene is a great big neon sign, as long as you know that there is some sort of famous twist in the game and that

Spoiler

Revan

is some sort of important character in the world, that first scene of

Spoiler

a fight on Revan's bridge with a weird first-person perspective that seems to be deliberately hiding the identity of someone

should tell you all you need to know)

 

[SonicWaffle]

He also has a feeling the story is meh rather than AMAZING like everyone says. Unfortunately he also read the plot summary hence his assumption.

It's a good story, but the big "twist" is very predictable IMHO. Not that this spoiled the game for me, as I was more interested in how the people around my character would react to the news than how I would react as a player.

Is it really that good? Some things don't last the test of time and KOTOR most certainly is showing age in its story/character complexity. I still like it; after all it was a classic for its time and it was a different approach to Star Wars. That's it though. Can it still be the classic we say it is?

I only played the game about a year and a half ago. Loved it. The combat works well, the graphics aren't that dated unless you're used to stuff like Crysis running at optimum, and the story is enjoyable. Plus, it's a good Star Wars game, and those are few and far between. I vote good.

EDIT: other people seem to be complaining a lot about the combat, and maybe it wasn't great if you played real-time. However, I just switched it to entirely turn-based and had no problems with it.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well I'd say the combat is pretty poor, D&D works when you have a huge set of interlocking strategic elements, but once you water it down so everything sort of works all the time you just aren't getting anything out of it.

The rest I really got into, it's just one of those huge adventure RPGs in Star Wars no less that doesn't really come around anymore, and no TOR isn't even in the same ballpark.

 

[spartandude]

dont think its quite as good... but still very VERY good, just not the second coming of christ..... thats KotOR II

 

[Soviet Heavy]

It's still a decent game, even if actually playing it feels somewhat clusterfuck-ey from time to time. And the upgrade system was a joke. Slap a Upari and Sigil crystal on your lightsaber and enjoy a 40+ damage bonus.

The party members range from solid to infuriating. For every Jolee Bindo and HK-47, you get stuck with fucking Mission Vao and Russian cat lady Juhani.

And ALL OF THEM HAVE FAMILY ISSUES. Seriously, I know that in KOTOR2 everyone was a broken shell with a dark past all trying to screw each other over, but at least they deviated in their individual quests and dialogue thanks to the influence system. But in KOTOR1, each person gives you their life story, then a family member shows up, and then you need to fix their daddy issues.

Mission Vao needs to find her big absent brother and get him out of trouble.
Zaalbar's entire family plot was the basis of Kashyyyk.
Bastila needs to find her bitchy mother and rescue daddy's belt.
Carth can't trust anybody and is sad because his son doesn't love him and joined the sith.
Canderous has to deal with Jagi his old comrade because he somehow "betrayed" the Mandalorians.
Juhani has to deal with her attempted rapist slaver former owner.
Jolee needs to help his old friend get out of jail (actually that quest was pretty fun)

T3 and HK thankfully didn't have these goddamn quests, but then, T3 had no personality in this game, while HK was just doing as HK does. That being being Boss.

 

[Tomaius]

Aside from the big twist I knew nothing about the story for the first one. The classes were too complex, I had no idea what to pick and I could tell that whatever character I made would be blighted by terrible uninformed decisions.

It's a design flaw that you have to commit and choose your class before you've played the game, an entry period where you could use the lowest skills of all classes would be nice so you could pick your class before you commit. This is a hallmark of Bioware videogames, I did something similar in DA1 where I'd make a character only for him to be poorly built for the challenges ahead.

Also story doesn't count if its shown almost entirely through cutscenes. Otherwise its just a film that occasionally you have to do star jumps in order to continue. Also is the writing good? If you compared it to some of the story focused TV shows at the moment I.E. Game of Thrones, Dragon Age and Baldurs Gate come up seriously short. Bioware may be good at video game writing but thats like saying this haggis is rather tasty for a haggis.

In conclusion:

1) I have had too many beers (And thus must go to the garage to get more)

2) KOTOR has aged poorly, especially compared to DA and ME, though they all have flaws and I acknowledge that when I played it, I did so knowing it was an older game and had been spoiled by more recent Bioware games.

3) Bioware writing may be good, but its more accurate to say all other video games are bad at writing.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

At the time when it was released it was incredible. But I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to give it a shot today. It didn't age very well both graphically and in terms of gameplay mechanics. Combat can be frustrating to newcomers that are used to a more action oriented gameplay.

 

[The Madman]

I respect it for what it did and would still recommend it today, but Kotor is still definitely showing its age.

Replayed both Kotor 1 and 2 just last year and although I still had a fun time with it, Kotor 1 was definitely cracking in places. It's got a great twist to it but once you're past that twist there's not nearly as much to the game beyond a few neat characters. In the end once I'd finished both it was Kotor 2 I kept thinking back on however and its unique portrayal of an otherwise well established and known setting.

Gameplay-wise both are mediocre at best as well, and visually while neither are hideous they're definitely not much to look at either.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

For it's time it was decent, though I think the story was always a lot more vanilla than people wanted to give it credit for. Even now, it's an enjoyable RPG romp, but it really is starting to show its age. The problem is that the gameplay mechanics were always a bit clunky, and ten years on, the story doesn't entirely make up for that.

Dear GOD, the the gameplay is bad in both of them. I remember replaying both KOTOR 1 AND 2 (the latter with the restored content mod) and the combat was just AWFUL. It's just "spam attacks til everything dies' and doesn't have any real depth to it. Obsidian did improve upon the mechanics in terms of the moral system, but even then it's not as deep as everyone thinks it is. Plus, without Bioware having laid down that incredibly sturdy core I doubt Obsidian could have done better.

But anyway, I do find that while the KOTOR games are some of the most important games of the last 10+ years, they ultimately are more there for influence rather than quality.

 

[votemarvel]

The only thing that irritates me when I play Knights of the Old Republic these days is the abysmal path finding for your AI team mates.

Got ridiculous the amount of times I'd get to the exit of an area to be told "you can't leave until your party has gathered" and have to go back to show the idiots how to walk around a table.

I enjoyed the combat and certainly didn't find it confusing. Queue up commands for your personal tactics or simply let them attack on their own. The only issue I had was that near the end you didn't have to do a damn thing any longer. The characters had levelled up to such a degree that it was only in the "boss" fights you needed to take an active hand.

 

[baconsarnie]

The combat is ok, a bit samey towards the end, but to really get into it you need to at least get to dantooine

 

[hazabaza1]

Eh.
Played it a few years back. I'd say it's more intuitive and fun than something like Baldur's Gate, but I still entered with expectations and left thourougly unimpressed.
Finished all the planets up to the water place. The awful design there was enough to make me stop.

 

[Ishal]

It's still a decent game, even if actually playing it feels somewhat clusterfuck-ey from time to time. And the upgrade system was a joke. Slap a Upari and Sigil crystal on your lightsaber and enjoy a 40+ damage bonus.

The party members range from solid to infuriating. For every Jolee Bindo and HK-47, you get stuck with fucking Mission Vao and Russian cat lady Juhani.

And ALL OF THEM HAVE FAMILY ISSUES. Seriously, I know that in KOTOR2 everyone was a broken shell with a dark past all trying to screw each other over, but at least they deviated in their individual quests and dialogue thanks to the influence system. But in KOTOR1, each person gives you their life story, then a family member shows up, and then you need to fix their daddy issues.

Mission Vao needs to find her big absent brother and get him out of trouble.
Zaalbar's entire family plot was the basis of Kashyyyk.
Bastila needs to find her bitchy mother and rescue daddy's belt.
Carth can't trust anybody and is sad because his son doesn't love him and joined the sith.
Canderous has to deal with Jagi his old comrade because he somehow "betrayed" the Mandalorians.
Juhani has to deal with her attempted rapist slaver former owner.
Jolee needs to help his old friend get out of jail (actually that quest was pretty fun)

T3 and HK thankfully didn't have these goddamn quests, but then, T3 had no personality in this game, while HK was just doing as HK does. That being being Boss.

First I'll say, all of THIS. So true.

KOTOR, for what it was, tried to be its own Star Wars. I mean it didn't just try to tell a story in the universe, it genuinely tried to emulate the formula of the Star Wars movies.

KOTOR II took the premise and world that was built in KOTOR and told its story. Obsidian literally took the ball from Bioware and ran the opposite direction at 100 miles per hour.

KOTOR II asked the question, what happens after the tale that is "Star Wars" is over? What happens to the galaxy afterward? GoTo actually exemplifies that theme to the very core of his character, especially if you figure out his arc. Everything is dark and foreboding, but not in a grimdark gritty sort of way. It's much, much more subtle and subtlety is one of the main themes of KOTOR II.

It also has one of the most ingenious twists/secrets I've ever seen in a videogame, we already talked about what that was.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Combat is turnbased (which isn't a bad thing by itself), clunky and sometimes annoying. Dialogue is retarded at times, recycling alien language voice acted files when the subtitles are different than the last set that used said same sound file.
There are other issues with the plot, lack of depth to most of the supporting cast and the light/dark side playthroughs are vastly different in rewards/power.
But I do love the game, I just feel its not the Citizen Kane of RPGs, nor is the sequel. They're decent Star Wars EU material, and fun to play, but miss basic concepts of the universe setting such as FLYING A GODDAMN SPACESHIP. Mass Effect fails at this too.
I am an addict when it comes to Spaceflight sims, and I would have loved to see more heart and thought put into spaceflight in any Space RPG.
It was better than EP1, and that + nostalgia can make fanboys drool.

 

[WoW Killer]

I never played it, but I did play the second one, and I've played a few other Bioware DnD titles. I think it's a bit funny that back when I played the second, the gaming community still thought of Bioware as the golden boys of developers. Whenever I said I'd played the second but not the first almost everybody told me the first was way better and the second was crap in comparison. These days Bioware are less well liked and somehow people think less of the original KotOR because of it.

Well anyway, I don't like pauseable-realtime much. Specifically I feel like these sorts of games feel ok in real time, but feel a bit clunky (almost as if you're cheating) the moment you hit the pause button and start queuing actions. I like normal turn-based combat just fine, but pauseable-realtime just feels wrong to me the moment you make use of that pause button. So basically I don't mind these sorts of games so long as you don't have to use that pause button much. What this tends to boil down to is how many people you're having to babysit. I didn't think much of Baldur's Gate, but I really liked NWN; the difference being that in NWN you're basically just controlling a single character and you can treat it as a realtime game. KotOR II, the one I played, I quite liked, as you only ever had teams of three and it seemed easy enough that you could leave your teammates to fend for themselves and just play around with your one main dude. That's how it was to me, never played the first so can't comment. I didn't like NWN 2 much incidentally.