Poll: Is Piracy Really That Bad?

[DoubleTime]

And not every media that can be enjoyed, can be bought. That's why we have sales charts.

It's reasonable to want to enjoy every media you possibly can. It's unreasonable to want to purchase every media you possibly can.

If a person only listens to a handful of music artists, I would call them uneducated and lacking in musical exposure. Possibly even overly closed minded.

If a person only owns a handful of music cds, I would call them a reasonable buyer instead of a fanatic.

If a person listens to thousands of music artists, I would call them a music connoisseur and have a high respect for their music venturing.

If a person buys thousands of music cds, I would worry they are overly fanatical and lack maturity in terms of money management.

And that's what a person who doesn't pirate generally is. Media underexposed, or money immature.

Media, is not the same as a car as well. Media is a mentally consumed product that generally results, mentally, in something gained. When you read school textbooks, you are consuming media as much as you do if play a video game. Consuming media and a variety of media is a generally important practice beyond the means of "you can only enjoy what you pay for". Because a certain amount of media must be consumed, and a certain amount of media should be consumed. Without a certain amount of media consumption, you are not even educated enough to be employable. And without a certain amount of media consumption, you lack much relatable discussion with other humans(for instance, without media consumption, one would likely not even know who most politicians are, and media in generally is one of the most commonly talked about things). This is why libraries exist. Because saying that people do not have a right to media, is something that has been disagreed with for centuries. You do have a right to media, this is why it is typically publicly available for free. This is why taxes pay for education.

First, that's what iTunes and radio are for. You listen to clips, advertisements, or the song that someone else (like a radio station) paid to be able to play. If you want to listen to it at your leisure, you pay for a copy and the right to do so.

Second, there is a difference between media that deals with knowledge of facts and media that is purely a luxury good. Music, movies, video games, even fiction novels, are all luxury goods. Since you don't need them to survive, they are not a necessity, and as such are not usually provided free of charge because the people who make them do so as a career. Plus, as you said, that's what a library is for. It's a building/organization that pays for media via donations and fees so that it accessible to people who otherwise would not be able to have access to media due to their personal lack of funds. I never said "you can only enjoy what you pay for," that's what services like libraries and radios are for. They pay for it so you can enjoy it.

Third, just because someone would be less worldly for not having something isn't an excuse to steal it when plenty is available for free. Playing a pirated copy of Call of Duty isn't going to open someone's eyes to the world. Going to the library and reading the Iliad, maybe. Relatability is subjective, and common knowledge like who various politicians are is available for free because it's fact and people make companies like news outlets run on providing information for free by having donations and other optional services that cost.

You have a right to information, and not having that information withheld from you. That's why uncensored access to the internet is considered a basic human right. Information is provided for free to everyone, but it still costs money. Money that is donated or collected through taxes. Taxes are you, as a citizen, paying for public services. It's like everyone splitting the check. People also have a right to protect something they made, even if it's an idea, and that's why there's copyright laws and intellectual property rights.

 

[DoubleTime]

Sorry to hear you're so easily offended.

Still, being offended isn't an excuse to steal. It's like saying "He called my mom a whore, so I shot him because I was offended." People who say they steal to "get back" at someone/something/a corporation/etc. are just being petty.

I was not being literal when I meant I would never ever buy anything legal again because of this video. It's still a very shitty video.

As for what I think about piracy, it depends. I have downloaded hundreds of films, but thorough that I got to know a lot of interesting film directors, and now whenever one of these directors I like releases new stuff in the cinema, I pay my ticket and enjoy the film in a big screen. If it wasn't for the films and music I downloaded, I would certainly have also spent a lot less in cinemas, concert halls and so on, so it ain't such a simple formula after all. Last week I downloaded the latest Ry Cooder CD, I didn't know this musician so much, but if he comes to my city I will pay for a concert now, that's for certain.

Also, not everything gets distributed, or not all films are so easy to find. If you live in a big city it's easier to rent a fine film at a video store, but if you live in a little Spanish village where the video rental store has only things in the line of The Best of Jackie Chan + Julia Roberts romantic comedies, then maybe if you want to watch a Jean-Luc Godard film, you have to download it. Or you can buy each DVD on the internet for an obscene price and get ruined in the process. But surely monsieur Godard is OK with me downloading his films.

So let me put it this way: I'm poor, I can't afford to buy DVDs that much, specially for a film I will only watch once or twice. Now, I am sorry for the lady in the video who gets fired and walks around the street with her equipement on (crazy hag) buuut... I don't really want to be uncultured just because I'm poor. Doesn't sound fair to me!

So you being "cultured" is more important than someone's livelihood?

It's still stealing, regardless of your justification. Besides, there are dozens of ways to see films these days without having to buy every single one or resort to theft. If you have internet, and would download them, get Netflix instead or some other provider of your choice. They pay for the rights to show those films, so by supporting them you're supporting the people who made the films. If you don't have internet but have access to cable or satellite TV, then pay for a movie channel and watch what comes on. If you don't, and you just have a single TV but nothing else, then how are you going to get the movies anyway? Steal them from a store?

 

[Angry_squirrel]

No, if you don't get said enjoyment because the game doesn't run on your system, you're an idiot who should have paid attention to the system requirements. The developers haven't cheated you out of anything in that situation: your own personal stupidity did. If people can't handle checking system requirements against their own computer, the solution is to buy a console. Not to illegally obtain the game.

And that is exactly why I'm a console gamer, I cannot be bothered with all the hassle PCs bring. But that's besides the point. My friend's computer supposedly had all the system requirements to run Oblivion to a decent standard back when that came out, yet for some reason he couldn't get it to work. What harm is really done if someone downloads a game to check if it'll run on their computer? It's not like you're stealing physical copies, and if it doesn't run, then you don't buy the game. The dev hasn't lost anything, neither have you

You're still adding to that counter that displays how many times the file(s) have been downloaded

Doubt it. I've just this minute looked on pirate bay to see if they've got a download counter visible to someone surfing the site, and couldn't see anything. I may be wrong, but I doubt developers have any way of discovering how many people have pirated their product.

 

[Angry_squirrel]

Double post, sorry

 

[Angry_squirrel]

Here's the thing with every point you brought up. You can find all this information out yourself. Don't know if a game will play on your computer? You can look up the specs, compare them and find out. Don't know that much? Use the "Can You Run It" thing for a general bench mark or ask someone computer savy. Want to know what the next Fable game is about? You've got a myriad of websites you can browse whose sole purpose is to inform people about a game. Use them. Don't want to be burned by BF4 and it's claim of having a "Super Awesome" single player campaign? Do some research then.

Pirating a game with the excuse that "If I like it I'll just buy it later" is a weak excuse and just used to help reinforce your (not you personally, but pirates) decision

That's besides the point. What I'm arguing is that game developers lying about their games is just as bad as piracy. Sure, I can quite easily find out if a game is good or not simply by looking up reviews and the like, but in some instances it's not that simple. Fable 2 got good reviews for example; and I bought it thinking it would be everything the devs claimed it would be. GTA4 is another good example.
Besides, you still haven't answered my question: Is game devs lying about their games in order to convince you to buy them not stealing?
Actually I've never heard of "Can You Run It", being a console gamer and all.

To be honest I'm just being awkward, it annoyed me that you said piracy is ALWAYS wrong. I suspect very few people actually pirate a game with the intention of buying it if they like it, but if they do, then I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[SonicKoala]

Anyone who buys a game is almost guaranteed not to pirate it - why bother?

People used to apply no CD cracks to keep their CDs from getting worn. Nowadays people like to play their game without intrusive DRM, or without the resource hog that is Steam. Among other reasons.

Why would you spend money on a game you already own?

See I like discussing piracy because everyone who starts arguing about it goes into it with a preset bunch of ideas on how things are. One of them is "people/pirates are dirty money-sucking vampires that need to be forced into paying money for something and would never think of supporting the thing they like". Most conversations eventually go this route. It's funny.

And, actually, I can claim in certain terms that piracy hurts the industry - why? Because the industry believes piracy hurts the industry. Whether or not that is actually true is irrelevant;

You're shifting the blame from the industry's skewed judgement to piracy. If people die because they use their toasters in the bathtub, you don't ban toasters. You educate the people in their use.

As for the rest, I'm gonna have to cut this short because everything I said was purely theoretical, not practical, so I really can't go into detail of "what actually happens" since that's not the point I'm trying to make and I'd likely agree with you on the practical side anyway. But unless you can provide the proof no one has using numbers no one knows, there are no "certain terms". There is only speculation.

You make some good points here. As to the issue with DRM, this isn't something I can speak on in an informed manner, since I've (fortunately) never had any issues with DRM (one of the benefits of console gaming, I suppose). However, I would still contend that pirating a game is not an appropriate form of protest, as it seems to only be exacerbating the issue of intrusive-DRM rather than resolving it. That being said, the frustration people experience when dealing with that kind of thing is certainly something I can sympathize with.

I'd like to hope that I haven't been so narrow-minded as to paint all pirates as 'dirty money-sucking vampires'. As I pointed out before, I have no doubt that there are instances where people will end up purchasing a product or supporting a developer that they were initially exposed to as a result of piracy. If I have been espousing that idea, I'd like to apologize, and make it clear that is not my take on the matter.

Your 'toaster/bathtub' analogy is certainly apt, and is well-taken. You're absolutely right, ignorance of something's (in this case, piracy) actual impact is by no means an acceptable excuse for one's subsequent reaction (such as DRM). Based on my assumption that nothing of the sort has been done, I really think a thorough, in-depth analysis on the economic (after all, the purported 'cost' of piracy is the reason this is such an issue) impact of piracy on the gaming industry is needed. How this would be carried out is beyond me, but it seems a necessary measure in order to quell the tirade of speculation which ultimately envelops any discussion about piracy.

 

[Disagreer]

Wow, that is a vague question, if I ever saw one.
Short answer: no, it's not half as bad as the entertainment industries paint it out to be. Outdated bullshit copyright legislation is much more damaging to culture and society in general, particularly since it spawns abominations like ACTA and other counter measures that endanger everyone's privacy.

 

[Sectan]

Fish swim, birds fly, people will download games for free. Home recording and file sharing has been "killing" the music industry for a few decades now. I don't condone file sharing or whatever you want to call it. I paid for it and I want you to pay for it too because I'm selfish like that, but I'm not going to call them evil.

 

[The Cheshire]

So you being "cultured" is more important than someone's livelihood?

It's still stealing, regardless of your justification. Besides, there are dozens of ways to see films these days without having to buy every single one or resort to theft. If you have internet, and would download them, get Netflix instead or some other provider of your choice. They pay for the rights to show those films, so by supporting them you're supporting the people who made the films. If you don't have internet but have access to cable or satellite TV, then pay for a movie channel and watch what comes on. If you don't, and you just have a single TV but nothing else, then how are you going to get the movies anyway? Steal them from a store?

See, you're taking it a little to the extreme. First of all, my options are limited: I live in a shitty little poor country, no Netflix, that's for sure. There was an attempt to take it over here, but guess what, cinema distributors decided it was trying to get their part of the cake and started lobbying to stop Netflix from making business here.

Second: Cable TV over here is rude enough to interrupt films for commercial brakes. Talk about butchering.

Third: Most films I am interested in are obscure little pieces that are generally not distributed in my country.

And last, but not least, I am a cinema student, and as such I ought to be concerned about this issues, but then again, while working in this field I have mainly come across exploiters and assholes, who bleed the creatives to death, pay them shit and run away with the budget. So, as you understand, I think piracy is not the main concern at the moment, specially when the benefits of most sales are not for the creative people, but for a bunch of fat ass pretentious tie and suit cocksucking maggots.

And I could go on and on, but I don't wish to bore you.

 

[DoubleTime]

See, you're taking it a little to the extreme. First of all, my options are limited: I live in a shitty little poor country, no Netflix, that's for sure. There was an attempt to take it over here, but guess what, cinema distributors decided it was trying to get their part of the cake and started lobbying to stop Netflix from making business here.

Second: Cable TV over here is rude enough to interrupt films for commercial brakes. Talk about butchering.

Third: Most films I am interested in are obscure little pieces that are generally not distributed in my country.

And last, but not least, I am a cinema student, and as such I ought to be concerned about this issues, but then again, while working in this field I have mainly come across exploiters and assholes, who bleed the creatives to death, pay them shit and run away with the budget. So, as you understand, I think piracy is not the main concern at the moment, specially when the benefits of most sales are not for the creative people, but for a bunch of fat ass pretentious tie and suit cocksucking maggots.

And I could go on and on, but I don't wish to bore you.

Having to sit through commercials is a silly reason since even Americans have to do that. Only the super expensive channels or on demand stuff doesn't have them during the movie, and you still have too deal with them before or in between.

I get something being so obscure it never came to VHS/DVD/TV/etc. but really, that's the exception not the rule. I've had to dig for some of my films too, but not every one is inaccessible. I'm not saying you can't watch stuff that super rare, just don't go after stuff you can easily pay for legally.

If all the suits are as asshole-y as you say, then the way to fix it is call them out on it and support the creatives, not steal stuff to give them more justification for cutting other people's paychecks. Plus, while I don't know what you're going to cinema school for, like you I'm in the business. I went to school for theater (and psych), I'm an artist, I've acted on film and I've seen and talked to plenty of other actors and artists who hate greedy SOBs too. But like pirating stuff that's never released they aren't the rule.

It's just too many people make shitty excuses for stealing when they have not valid justification for why they're breaking they law and hurting other people in the process. Entitled little jerks who just want something for free and think they shouldn't have to pay for it because they can just take it. Regardless of reasoning its still breaking the law and reasons have to be really fucking good to break any law or else everything just falls apart. We've spent centuries trying to protect intellectual property to encourage people to invent and we shouldn't let that fall apart just because some twat doesn't want to pay for something because he doesn't want another DVD knocking around his house.

Look, by no means am I attacking you. I don't know you. I don't know your situation. I'm just stating my opinion and what I know about the industry, history, and economics. I don't want this to be a "I'm right and you're wrong" thing. I just think that this sort of issue is really difficult because it deals with when someone is (sort of) morally justified in breaking the law and as such needs to be handled with care.

 

[Sovereignty]

What would you consider burning a legally bought copy of a game to play over lan? Piracy or not?

On that note, why aren't there games offered in 2 packs? I hate having a library of all these duplicate games...

 

[The Cheshire]

Having to sit through commercials is a silly reason since even Americans have to do that. Only the super expensive channels or on demand stuff doesn't have them during the movie, and you still have too deal with them before or in between.

I get something being so obscure it never came to VHS/DVD/TV/etc. but really, that's the exception not the rule. I've had to dig for some of my films too, but not every one is inaccessible. I'm not saying you can't watch stuff that super rare, just don't go after stuff you can easily pay for legally.

If all the suits are as asshole-y as you say, then the way to fix it is call them out on it and support the creatives, not steal stuff to give them more justification for cutting other people's paychecks. Plus, while I don't know what you're going to cinema school for, like you I'm in the business. I went to school for theater (and psych), I'm an artist, I've acted on film and I've seen and talked to plenty of other actors and artists who hate greedy SOBs too. But like pirating stuff that's never released they aren't the rule.

It's just too many people make shitty excuses for stealing when they have not valid justification for why they're breaking they law and hurting other people in the process. Entitled little jerks who just want something for free and think they shouldn't have to pay for it because they can just take it. Regardless of reasoning its still breaking the law and reasons have to be really fucking good to break any law or else everything just falls apart. We've spent centuries trying to protect intellectual property to encourage people to invent and we shouldn't let that fall apart just because some twat doesn't want to pay for something because he doesn't want another DVD knocking around his house.

Look, by no means am I attacking you. I don't know you. I don't know your situation. I'm just stating my opinion and what I know about the industry, history, and economics. I don't want this to be a "I'm right and you're wrong" thing. I just think that this sort of issue is really difficult because it deals with when someone is (sort of) morally justified in breaking the law and as such needs to be handled with care.

OK, you made your point. Having to sit through commercials is NOT a silly reason, though. Commercial brakes are a sick evil concept, any decent movie has a tempo and a structure that is ruined by entering commercial brakes. So here we have a shot of Dreyer's Joan of arc crying in front of what she thinks is an apparition of God. Drink coke, buy a car, look at this toothpaste, axe deodorant makes you fuckable, back to Joan of Arc. Nooooo, no way, that is an invention of Satan! Every director I know would rather be pirated than have their films butchered like that. You can butcher Michael Bay films if you want, from a set of flashy explosions to a set of stupid commercials, you can almost not notice the film is actually being interrupted.

Next, again, I don't know about the US, but here is how it works in Spain: we have an association called SGAE, meant to defend intellectual property. These are the same cunts blocking Netflix. They are soooo worried about loosing their share they actually lobby against any form of distribution that may hurt them, be it Netflix (fair prices? egad! Pay 12? for each DVD or screw you) or be it piracy.

Now, every time a Spaniard buys any technology related stuff, be it hard drives, printers, scanners, mp3 reproducers, blank CDs, recorders, and just about ANYTHING that could be used to pirate films or music, they have to pay an extra that goes to SGAE. Like it or not. It's a private enterprise that actually managed to get the goverment to charge us extra tax to get this scumfucks to collect the "share to compensate what is lost with piracy".

Nobody likes them. Now, earlier this year the police stormed the SGAE: a judge found out they have been using this public money for some dark affairs, meaning, corruption and fiscal fraud. Woooo, hold on, madammes et monsieurs, weren't you the ones who were accusing everyone from STEAAAAALING? To the point of enforcing a new tax we ALL have to pay, regardless of the fact we may not be using it for piracy.

So see, in this context I feel it quite hard to feel some remorse. Back in my day, I never pirated a single thing, however when every thing I buy has a tax such as the one described... well, fuck them. SGAE does not only deserve piracy, they deserve to disspaear. Bloody mafia!

so my point is: Corrput organizations, unfair taxes that presume we all pirate, netflix blocking, and no reasonably priced alternatives, goverment aid corruption ...well, of course I pirate. Everyone in Spain has ended up pirating. It's a little hard to see it under such a bad light with the shit-storm over our heads.

The U.S is quite lucky in this. American business is finding ways to adapt to new technologies and demands. Spanish business is finding ways to block new ideas so a few elite of publishers and producers can afford a new Rollex this month.

 

[incal11]

What would you consider burning a legally bought copy of a game to play over lan? Piracy or not?

Since the EULA would probably forbid it some would call it piracy, but it has been aknowledged that a long boring string of text nobody reads cannot make a proper agreement with the user, even if he clicked "I agree". Fair use is a decent defense in this case.
The real question should be, how can it not be fair use ?

If you are interested in a somewhat more in depth discussion on "piracy" tell me and I'll pm you.