Poll: Is soliciting a prostitute an anti-feminist act/demeaning to women?

[Froggy Slayer]

I made a previous comment about this, but I'll do it again anyway: please stop making comments like this. I'm sure we can have a normal conversation about this. There's no reason to demean the topic, we can all be adults here. Stop assuming this is going to spiral into a battle of nazi-feminism vs male rights activists.

Seems like it did to me.

Eh, don't worry about the usual 'abandon thread' folks. People will keep debating. This is kind of similar to what happened in my rape thread.

OT: No, not really, unless the woman has been forced into the situation or you try to use the fact that you're paying her to have sex with you to treat her as an object.

 

[Mr F.]

The other creates hate. Instant, visceral hate. You look at someone who used to be your friend and all you can see is rage in their eyes, you sit down in a room and watch people move away from you, you walk home and someone punches you in the stomach or kicks your knee out from behind you because "You know what you did".

Which makes it worse. You know what you did, nothing. You know that your protestations that you did nothing will never be listened to. Those who stick with you face similar, not the physical violence, but the bubbling hatred of "How can you be around him?". Now, I disagree with you being able to "Choose" how something like that affects you.

That often does happen to rape victims too, though. Victim blaming is no small thing.

And I would never deny that nor did I in the post. Yet I believe it is fair to say that within the United Kingdom, the rumour that someone may have been raped would not incur hatred and physical violence, yet the rumour that someone may be a rapist could. As I said within my post, I think that it should be a hell of a lot easier to convict someone of rape, too many guilty men get away with the charge. Nor do I think that false accusations of rape are common whatsoever, I know I became somewhat of a rogue statistic.

I was just trying to explain the full reaction that one who is accused, falsely or correctly, can face.

 

[AnarchistFish]

lol what is it with this site and these kinds of questions

no

 

[Legion]

As long as the prostitute is in it of her own accord and she has full control over who she has sex with, paying her for sex is not an act that is "demeaning to women".

Now, pimping and forcing women into prostitution, that's a crime and one should at least be slapped around a bit with a large trout for it.

Also, I like (making) a good understatement.

First post *cringes* ... nails it.

If a person wants to be paid for having sex, then it's not demeaning because it is their choice. Saying it is demeaning is saying they should not have the option to do what they want with their own body. Which is actually is demeaning.

But as Vegosiux said, if they are coerced or in any way forced (blackmail, threats etc.) then that is absolutely and undeniably wrong, and the person who does it deserves to be on trial for something similar to rape.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of cases (I wouldn't be surprised if it was the majority) where the latter is more common than the former.

*snip*

I honestly don't know how common it is for people to choose prostitution, rather than have it forced upon them, but that's not what the thread is asking, so it's actually irrelevant.

So your point isn't a "counter argument", because nobody was talking about how common it is for people to choose it.

They were answering the question "Is it demeaning or anti-feminist?"

The answer given was no, if it was a choice, and yes if it wasn't. How often it is one or the other isn't relevant to the question being asked.

 

[gazumped]

I'm not sure if prostitution is really a gender issue considering guys can be prostitutes too (in fact, I think I know more male prostitutes than female ones, not that anecdotal evidence is relevant though).

It's a different story if you're arguing if it's demeaning in general, of course. I grew up being told by my mum to respect myself more than letting men buy me and also being told that prostitution is okay as it's the oldest profession, so I was a bit split on how I viewed it. Now I'm older and more open minded about sex and agency (mostly thanks to getting into feminist theory, incidentally) I see no problem with the exchange of money for sex in itself, and would probably be up for it if I was more confident in my ability to give a client their money's worth.

Buut, that's completely ignoring the issues surrounding illegal prostitution lessening safety for prostitutes and the whole human trafficking issue, and like Katatori-kun said... how do you know what you're paying for? An individual with choice in what they're doing or a blackmailing kidnapper?

Unless you just want to hire friends or at least acquaintances. Then you're probably okay.

 

[Vegosiux]

Um.

*scrolls through first page*

Seems no-one, on the first page at least, made the obvious counter argument.

You find me a prostitute who is totally and utterly willing to do what she is doing and has not been exploited in any way and I will find you a Unicorn. Technically, in some hitherto unknown place on earth there might be a Unicorn, much like technically in some hitherto unknown area on earth there might be a prostitute who is totally and utterly willing to do her job.

Just one? Easy.

Years ago, when I lived in a dorm, there were girls who basically sold sex in order to pay their bills, going "Why work if all I have to do is spread my legs a few times every month and charge for that?". 3-4 times a month, and they picked their "customers" themselves. So, they were in full control over who they have sex with, and did it of their own accord.

Can I have my unicorn now, or are you backing out of your end of the deal?

Thing is, I am not really wanting to get dragged into this. Which is strange, because I am quoting you and everything, but what is the point? You can point to your mythical situation, which is technically fair enough, as vindication for your belief.

Not as mythical as you'd like to think, I suppose.

But in reality, the vast majority of prostitutes have been exploited massively.

Yes, and I accounted for that. If you read the post you quoted, you'd see that the moment a woman is coerced into having sex for money, I no longer think that's legitimate.

Talking the whole "Human trafficking, drugs trade" crap. Even in legal places they find people who have been trafficked halfway across the world. If it is on a street corner moreso. Prostitution is a shit trade, it is utterly foul and demeaning for everyone involved. Would I call it anti-feminist? Massively.

"Anti-feminist" implies that those traffickers they care about feminism. They don't. They're not "anti-feminist". They're "anti-human decency". Human decency is not exclusive to feminism.

 

[Something Amyss]

As long as the prostitute is in it of her own accord and she has full control over who she has sex with, paying her for sex is not an act that is "demeaning to women".

Now, pimping and forcing women into prostitution, that's a crime and one should at least be slapped around a bit with a large trout for it.

Also, I like (making) a good understatement.

And the latter part is where the objections to prostitution tend to originate.

So should there be a separate thread about male prostitutes? Prostitution is not a girls only club. Try to see things through a broader lens please.

Yeah, how DARE the topic creator target a specific question that is a specific issue with specific concerns? Everyone should be included, even if not relevant to the point as a whole!

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Prostitution is actually more demeaning to women (and men) since it's illegal. Instead of it being legal, and prostitutes having legal protection and health and safety, they have to fend on the streets often dealing with terrible customers with no legal protection. Go watch the Penn and Teller Bullshit episode on it, the difference between the brothel in a state where prostitution is legal and the work conditions in a state where it's illegal is amazing. It's just another job, and the prostitutes are looked after and actually have more safety than most jobs. But since it's illegal we have them walking on the streets in the dark in a dodgy neighborhood just waiting to get an STD or something worse.

So my whole point is it's demeaning when it's illegal, but if it's legal like any other job it's not.

 

[Shadowstar38]

Seems no-one, on the first page at least, made the obvious counter argument.

You find me a prostitute who is totally and utterly willing to do what she is doing and has not been exploited in any way and I will find you a Unicorn. Technically, in some hitherto unknown place on earth there might be a Unicorn, much like technically in some hitherto unknown area on earth there might be a prostitute who is totally and utterly willing to do her job.

I can name at least 5 that I've met. It's not as unlikely as you would think.

I would rather be raped than be convicted on a rape I did not commit. For having been raped can be a private thing that would affect me as much as I allow it to.

*Facepalm*

Yeah, what's with all these traumatised rape victims anyway? Don't they know that being raped only affects you as much as you allow it to? Geez.

I was raped once. It wasn't that bad actually.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Really?

We're seriously still fucking doing this on these forums?

*sigh*

No, it is not demeaning if the woman sells sex of her own free will, it's a service like any other and is legal in many countries.

Pretty much exactly this.

It's just skipping the step of buying dinner and just handing the money straight over.

Yes, it people can be forced into it, but the same can be said of many other professions.

 

[Patrick Buck]

I would make the argument it has demeaned the person visiting the prostitute, But I guess not if the woman chooses to your OP...

 

[TheLycanKing144]

I don't really care too much for the feminist movement (they have done some good things, but a lot of them seem to hate men, at least from my personal experience with them) but prostitution is wrong, and yes it does objectify women. A lot of those girls are abused or addicted to drugs, they should not be treated like that and deserve better lives. I wish people wouldn't judge those women, instead I wish people would be nice to them and help them get away from prostitution.

Also if you have to pay for sex, then you're just a sad individual.

 

[Sangreal Gothcraft]

One gets off, and one gets the money. There is power in both, I'm buying you for a single session of sex, and i provide the service...

 

[afroebob]

Can a women get a male prostitute? If so than no, its not. Also, human trafficing isn't sexist either. They do it because women are more profitable, not because they hate women more (well, that's my guess anyways. I really don't think that cartels care if they traffic men or women just how much cash they make) so not even that is sexist. Its horrible, yes, but not sexist. Rather, its just calculation.

 

[Daveman]

That's a really really good question. I think I'm going to have to form an opinion. We can't say something is demeaning to women any more, including this example obviously. It's too generalised. "Women" is half the bloody planet. Obviously a lot of prostitution is bad, sex slavery is a thing and drug dependency is a *****. That said, as little as some people may like to admit it, there are some women out there who actively WANT to be prostitutes. They obviously don't see what they're doing as demeaning to them or "to women", how can it be demeaning to women if they don' find it demeaning? As such I suppose case by case review would be necessary for exactly how bad it is. Personally I don't want to be with a woman who doesn't want to be with me and I don't think I'll ever change that opinion.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I'm always a little leery about the motivations of women who rail against sex work.

There are those women, who want to impose their religious ideology down other people's throats. There are those women, who are in the full grip of the politics of envy. And there is also the element of class struggle. Well-educated professional women from the middle-class and upwards, girls who make their own money in other words, have a collective self-interest in arranging that trading downwards on the social ladder for sex, romance and relationships is made as unattractive as possible to the men that share their social class. You get a lot more cheap plastic crap for your money from a Chinese plastic crap factory than what you'd get from the local equivalent cheap plastic crap factory. Basic economics. Keep that one in mind the next time a career-orientated professional argue that the spoils of a broken marriage should be divided evenly between the former partners regardless of who was bringing home the bacon.

 

[Robot Number V]

No, it's not. It's OBVIOUSLY not.

It might be demeaning to that PARTICULAR woman, though.

 

[Mikeyfell]

A friend and I were discussing this and we weren't really able to come to much of an agreement on a number of points. Is the act of soliciting a prostitute demeaning to just the prostitute, women in general or no-one? And alternatively, is it sexist if the gender roles are reversed i.e. a woman buying a male prostitute?

I'm generally curious about what people think, opposed to whether or not I believe my argument to be correct or incorrect, so feel free to answer truthfully. Any further explanation of your answer would be good too.

I don't know? Is ordering takeout demeaning to the delivery person, or everyone in the delivery person's gender or no one at all.

A prostitute has sex for money,
Asking someone who isn't a prostitute if they are because they look like one would be embarrassing, not necessarily demeaning, and someone could feel demeaned by being compared to a prostitute, but that's a them problem not a you problem

Anyone can be demeaned/offended by anything. it doesn't make everything demeaning/offensive.