Poll: Is the ratio of women in the industry really a sign of sexism?

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Aiddon_v1legacy

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"Is 50/50 gender population that important?"

Hmmm, lemme think-YES! Jesus fucking Christ, is it THAT goddamn hard for people to get it through their heads that maybe gaming should start trying to be more accommodating towards women? The games industry already (rightfully) has a bad rap of being a very insular boys' club, so it wouldn't hurt to try and dispel those ideas. Gaming needs to get over its cooties
 

bounty90

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Aiddon said:
"Is 50/50 gender population that important?"

Hmmm, lemme think-YES! Jesus fucking Christ, is it THAT goddamn hard for people to get it through their heads that maybe gaming should start trying to be more accommodating towards women? The games industry already (rightfully) has a bad rap of being a very insular boys' club, so it wouldn't hurt to try and dispel those ideas. Gaming needs to get over its cooties
So a guy should be denied a job in programing where he ranks a 10 out of 10 to a girl who's skill's would rank mabey 8 out of 10, simply because she has a vagina? that's kind of sexist wouldent you say. If more boys try to get into the industry then girl's do you really think that there gonna be equal? that's like saying *lemme think-YES! Jesus fucking Christ, is it THAT goddamn hard for people to get it through their heads that maybe fashion salons should start trying to be more accommodating towards men?* just dosent make sense for all those girls to be told, sorry were looking for a man to paint nails.
 

DarthSka

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I would say it's mostly due to a cycle. Men have made up most of the industry in the past, so women today decide not get into it. And because women decide not to enter the industry, it remains male dominated. Which leads back to the original point. Sure you'll find case-by-case examples of sexism, but that's present in every industry in some way.

Bara_no_Hime said:
Frybird said:
Let's look at who presented:
Mark Cerny - Lead PS4 Architect and Game Designer on Knack.
Dave Perry - CEO of Gaikai
Michael Denny - Vice President of Sony Worldwide Studios Europe
Andrew House - CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
They were not merely presenters, but at the very head of the development of the PS4. They clearly weren't chosen by gender, and not mainly chosen for being good presenters, but because they are actually responsible for the things revealed about the PS4.
Ahem. Look at point number 2 in my post - that Sony had failed to promote any women to positions of authority like that. You may have just proven that Sony has failed to promote women to positions of power (in relation to the PS4 project anyway).
Did Sony fail to promote them, or did women fail to earn the promotion from Sony? I would likely say that the men they did give it to simply proved to be the most deserving of the promotions. Remember, there are more men in the industry so there's a greater chance that you're going to find men that are right for the job than you will women who are.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Very much an exaggerated controversy.

I imagine Sony picked whatever presenters it felt would most effectively promote their product. If they had deliberately put a woman on stage to manipulate the emotions of the audience and make Sony look more PC, I would be more worried.

This just tells me something I already know (that there are not many women working in high-level game design). That's not Sony's fault; it's an industry-wide problem. There's no point repeating the debate over why this is the case in this thread, so I'll just conclude that this is one of those teacup storms and move on.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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DarthSka said:
Bara_no_Hime said:
Frybird said:
Let's look at who presented:
Mark Cerny - Lead PS4 Architect and Game Designer on Knack.
Dave Perry - CEO of Gaikai
Michael Denny - Vice President of Sony Worldwide Studios Europe
Andrew House - CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
They were not merely presenters, but at the very head of the development of the PS4. They clearly weren't chosen by gender, and not mainly chosen for being good presenters, but because they are actually responsible for the things revealed about the PS4.
Ahem. Look at point number 2 in my post - that Sony had failed to promote any women to positions of authority like that. You may have just proven that Sony has failed to promote women to positions of power (in relation to the PS4 project anyway).
Did Sony fail to promote them, or did women fail to earn the promotion from Sony? I would likely say that the men they did give it to simply proved to be the most deserving of the promotions. Remember, there are more men in the industry so there's a greater chance that you're going to find men that are right for the job than you will women who are.
That's a fine question, and there's really no way to know the answer for sure. However, I will point out that, of the four positions mentioned, only ONE requires game development experience. The larger number of male game programmers/designers than women only explains Lead PS4 Architect and Game Desinger Mark Cerny. There are plenty of female business majors.

And this isn't aimed specifically at Sony. Most businesses have male CEOs because of sexist promotion practices. Since you replied to a reply to my reply (and possibly a few more iterations), you're about three steps removed from the original context being discussed. Head up thread to my first post for relevance.
 

TheBelgianGuy

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55-60% of archaeologists are male.
However, a smashing 90-95% of archaeologists working with computer software like GIS are male.

What's keeping ladies off computers? No idea, but that's how it is atm.
 

MetalMagpie

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Chemical Alia said:
MetalMagpie said:
maninahat said:
All the way through childhood, girls are generally discouraged from "boy stuff" and encouraged to like "girl stuff", and as it happens, boy stuff consists of technical orientated toys, games and entertainment whilst girl stuff consists of magic, pink and haircare. The process is self-sustaining too - parents get kids the toys they would have got as a child, whilst girls and boys will want the toys they see their corresponding friends and siblings playing with.
Maybe I was just a spoilt child, but my siblings and I got the toys we asked for! When we went to the shops, my sister would whine to get a new Barbie doll and I would whine to get a new Lego set.

Up to about the age of six, I wore dungarees pretty much the whole time, because that's what my parents dressed me in and I didn't care very much about clothes. From the age of four, my sister was throwing tantrums if my mother tried to dress her in anything that wasn't pink. My sister wanted to be "girly". She liked dressing up as a princess and treating dolls like they were real babies. I wanted to be an inventor/scientist/explorer. I liked digging holes in the garden and constructing marble runs out of cardboard.

My sister is now a copywriter. I'm a software developer. We are evidence points A and B in my mother's theory that children are actually fully-formed human beings from the moment they enter this world (rather than being blank slates). Because, in her words, "I treated you both exactly the same, but you were still completely different people from before you could even talk".
When I was a kid, I hated everything girly. Hated pink, hated Barbie, flowers, dresses, New Kids on the Block, didn't play with dolls, any of that. All my relatives knew I liked drawing, animals, dinosaurs, learning about science and overall pretty gender-neutral stuff. Yet every birthday, I was always dismayed to open present after present of troll dolls and girl toys I would never want to play with, and it was only the hope for that occasional video game from my mom and dad (who hated me playing video games) that would make me happy. I guess that my aunts and uncles just went with the "default girl gifts" because they had better things to think about than what I might really like, what with their busy adult lives, but I guess that's kind of the problem.

I mean, it's cool that you guys always got the toys you wanted, and I have no problem with girls liking dolls or anything like that. But there's a real pressure that steers girls towards girl shit that is pretty hard to avoid, even when as a kid you desperately tried to.
So being given girly stuff did nothing to make you more girly. Kids know their own minds a lot better than we give them credit for! :)

And yeah, I had an aunt who kept giving me pretty dresses (usually a size too small) and designer handbags, right up until my late teens. The day I learnt to sell stuff on ebay was a very good day. ;)
 

Frybird

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Bara_no_Hime said:
DarthSka said:
Bara_no_Hime said:
Frybird said:
Let's look at who presented:
Mark Cerny - Lead PS4 Architect and Game Designer on Knack.
Dave Perry - CEO of Gaikai
Michael Denny - Vice President of Sony Worldwide Studios Europe
Andrew House - CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
They were not merely presenters, but at the very head of the development of the PS4. They clearly weren't chosen by gender, and not mainly chosen for being good presenters, but because they are actually responsible for the things revealed about the PS4.
Ahem. Look at point number 2 in my post - that Sony had failed to promote any women to positions of authority like that. You may have just proven that Sony has failed to promote women to positions of power (in relation to the PS4 project anyway).
Did Sony fail to promote them, or did women fail to earn the promotion from Sony? I would likely say that the men they did give it to simply proved to be the most deserving of the promotions. Remember, there are more men in the industry so there's a greater chance that you're going to find men that are right for the job than you will women who are.
That's a fine question, and there's really no way to know the answer for sure. However, I will point out that, of the four positions mentioned, only ONE requires game development experience. The larger number of male game programmers/designers than women only explains Lead PS4 Architect and Game Desinger Mark Cerny. There are plenty of female business majors.

And this isn't aimed specifically at Sony. Most businesses have male CEOs because of sexist promotion practices. Since you replied to a reply to my reply (and possibly a few more iterations), you're about three steps removed from the original context being discussed. Head up thread to my first post for relevance.

Again, why put a "female business major" on the stage if you can have the actual BOSS of the company?

And as you said "there's really no way to know the answer for sure", yet you automatically assume that the two CEOs, one of wich the actual founder of the company (That'd be Dave Perry, who also did previously not belong to Sony, btw), and the vice president all came to thier position because of "sexist promotion practices".

A CEO is (usually at least) a singluar position at a company, for obvious reasons, and you do not become a CEO per promotion along the corporate ladder, as well as there being no point in having a quota to fulfill here.

You are pushing the accusations pretty hard here...
 

Darken12

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I think it IS sexism, but not in the way it's usually thought of. I think that this happens without anybody being overly prejudiced, but tends to happen to every minority or marginalised group. When a profession is made up almost exclusively by a given kind of person (white people, males, straight people, Christians and so on), even if they open their doors to minorities, a lot marginalised people are going to prefer to stay in the professions they were socialised to view as acceptable, and only the really brave ones will take the chance.

The problem is that when women make their way into an exclusively male profession (or any marginalised person makes their way into a profession occupied exclusively by people who are not like them), there is always a change of the status quo. If men are used to telling raunchy jokes and the woman feels uncomfortable as a consequence, she has a tough choice to make: will she just take it and be quiet, slowly growing resentful of the atmosphere? Or will she try to raise the issue with her superiors? The issue can get dismissed under a "boys will be boys" rationale, or actually get taken care of, and thereby cause the men to resent her for forcing them to change something they had got used to. And even if she doesn't complain or raise the issue, the men can end up changing that themselves to avoid making her uncomfortable, but they can't avoid the inevitable resentment that will eventually come to happen as they have to change their ways to accommodate for the newcomer.

The same thing also happens to LGBT people in a straight environment. When people say "Ugh, that's so gay!" or make a gay joke, the LGBT person is in the same position as the woman in the previous example. What do they do? Do they just put up with it or risk everyone resenting them? The same goes for a person of colour on a profession full of white people.

At the end of the day, people aren't likely to brave an environment that feels unwelcoming, and where every day you are reminded that you are fundamentally different from everyone else, that you don't fit in and never will, and that if you aren't careful, then everyone will turn on you.

Now, before anyone brings it up: yes, it's possible that, on an individual basis, this won't happen. It's possible that you can be a woman, LGBT person, or person of colour who finds a very tolerant environment where you fit in perfectly and there's no resentment from anybody at all. But these are exceptions. Most of the time, inserting yourself in an environment full of people who are different from you will turn out as I described above. I and many others can vouch for that from experience.

So yes, women make their own choices and choose not to enter the industry, but I personally can't blame them at all.
 

Trishbot

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I don't know the answer to this.

I do know that I am a girl who likes games, who likes games with strong female characters, and even likes games by talented female game developers.

So... I would very much like more of that, please.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Frybird said:
Again, why put a "female business major" on the stage if you can have the actual BOSS of the company?
The point being that sexist business practices are why is boss of the company is (almost) never a woman.

Also, again, I'm not particularly mad at Sony. I am merely explaining to those who don't "get it" why other people are upset.

When you work hard to refute my logic as to why other people are upset, you are missing the point - this is what they believe, so attacking me does nothing. If you want to remain ignorant of why other people are upset about this, then fine, go stick your head in the sand.

You can say you think they're wrong to be mad. Fine. But at least try to understand their side of the argument.
 

BreakfastMan

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To answer the question in the thread title, yes it is, without a doubt. But the real question is: what sexism is this reflective of? A national, sexist culture that pushes women and men towards certain job roles, or sexism within the game industry itself? A bit of both, perhaps? That, I don't know and don't really have enough info to comment on. :p
 

Voulan

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Trishbot said:
I don't know the answer to this.

I do know that I am a girl who likes games, who likes games with strong female characters, and even likes games by talented female game developers.

So... I would very much like more of that, please.
Same here, though I am surprised about the reaction to no female presenters. I honestly didn't notice, nor do I find it a big deal. Unless there's any tangible evidence that women are deliberately being turned away from a job over men, then there isn't anything to be concerned of.

But I do think we should have more female developers. I'd go for it myself, but you need to learn how to make games, then do some work experience making games, then apply for a job at a place to make games, which would mean I'd have to move countries and pay thousands for another degree. So maybe other women then.
 

Zeke63

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probelmatic poll in how options are two extemes. More women are vital but 50 50 is why i think so many no
 

The_Echo

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Sexism in ANY industry does not come from the number of x-gender employees, but whether that gender is being mistreated or simply not hired on the grounds of their gender.

The real reason there aren't as many women in the industry? Well, probably that video games in general are more popular among men, and I'm sure that within the minority of women gamers, there's a minority of them that would want to be/are in the industry.
Altefforr said:
Forced equality is no equality at all.
Also this.

I think some companies actually have quotas to fill for minority employees. That just... that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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I don't know. I'm pretty sure there's not institutionalised sexism when hiring people, but there are doubtless more males applying. I think this part is just different interests. However, whether gaming culture as a whole is daunting to more females than males and that leads to less female participation, I don't know. There is definitely some sexism, but I don't think it's direct enough to be a deterrent. Most of what we see is ungraceful trailers, unrealistic breast physics and stripper outfits as armour, and none of that is attacking the female viewer or player and none of which, I don't think, would turn someone away from gaming altogether who has the passion such that they want to pursue a career in it.
 

infinity_turtles

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My general response to general "Sexism in the Gaming Industry" thing is look at indie devs. I think indie developers are good way to check for a disparity in interest in game design. How many female indie devs can you name? As is, I'll take claims of sexist business practices from anyone who isn't a female developer in the industry with a grain of salt.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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There was a twitter hashtag recently called 1reasonwhy and that was pretty much jam packed with female devs saying how shitty they had been treated.

http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012

So I'd say yeah it is.

As for Sony.

It would have been nice to see more of a female presence both on the stage and on the screen. I'm sure they could have found someone to do it (lets face it the guys weren't exactly enrapturing). Even if it was just a gesture of recognition to female gamers.

It would have been nice to see a female protagonist too not counting the old Square demo we had all seen.

I'm not saying they had to have an equal amount. Just one or two would have been nice. It just came across as a complete sausage fest.

infinity_turtles said:
My general response to general "Sexism in the Gaming Industry" thing is look at indie devs. I think indie developers are good way to check for a disparity in interest in game design. How many female indie devs can you name? As is, I'll take claims of sexist business practices from anyone who isn't a female developer in the industry with a grain of salt.
There are plenty actually. I follow a few on twitter.
 

Auron

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Do people really pay any attention or give validity to kotaku articles anymore?
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Auron said:
Do people really pay any attention or give validity to kotaku articles anymore?
Pretty sure the tag was reported elsewhere/ exists dude.

http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2012/11/one-reason-why-theres-so-few-women-games-and-another-and-another
http://www.themarysue.com/1-reason-why-women-in-games/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanshapiro/2012/11/29/1reasonwhy-you-should-be-worried-about-gender-equality-in-the-game-industry/

and on and on.

Some people are actually setting up mentorships from it also.

I don't know why people get there knickers in such a twist denying it. It's not like someone is calling you sexist personally.

Jim Sterling also wrote about some of the tweets.

"I had to make my own game in order to see someone like me as a main character," explained Mattie Brice, also adding, "Men write about sexism and get praise, and I silenced and degraded for writing the same thing a week, month, year before."

Ashly Burch revealed, "I am confronted with rape or violence in the comments section of Hey Ash videos," while writer Rhianna Pratchett offered, "Creating appropriately dressed female characters is viewed as a rarity, rather than the norm."

"Men like me are badasses, so cool and hilarious. I'm a disrespectful loud-mouthed *****," said former Destructoid writer Leigh Alexander, while Rowan Cota wrote, "If I succeed, I'm exceptional. And if I fail, I'm proof that women shouldn't be in the industry."

The #1ReasonWhy list is well worth reading through, especially if you're a guy like me who has, for a long time, been clueless about the extent of the shit women deal with in gaming (and still has way too much to learn). Of course, some assholes have come into the conversation with predictable venom, but most of the topic has been host to eye-opening, if somewhat depressing, stuff.

It's not just women, either. Rock, Paper, Shotgun writer John Walker revealed he gets threats and abuse every time he addresses these issues, "And *I* have a penis."