Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[cookyt]

Why can't you count nothing (or zero)? According to my interpretation of your argument, it is because:

1. Nothing does not exist because it would require the absense of itself
2. Because nothing does not exist, it cannot be counted
3. Because nothing and zero are equivlent concepts, zero cannot be a number because it cannot be counted

This argument is flawed, though because zero can be counted.
Your first statement:

You cant count 0 cats. Because they dont exist to count.

be acknowleding that our value is zero CATS and not JUST ZERO, you also acknowledge the presence of a unit of cats assigned to our zero. It is true that we have no cats, but that does not refute the possibility of there being cats in our possesion (perhaps sometime in the future).

Saying that cats cease to exist because because we no longer have any with us physically at this moment in time is the philosophical equivlent of saying that the world cannot exist whilist I close my eyes. If you limit yourselfto a very specific perspective it has a certain truth to it, but it is false overall for the general case.

Next statement:

You cannot count nothing. And the concpet of a car doesnt require 0. It requires 2. 2 cats.
2 cats, 1 male and 1 female. Where in there is 0? There isnt one. Where did cats come from. Previous ancestors. Where did they come from, theyer ancestors.

You can, indeed, count to nothing (depending on the number system you use). Start from some negative value, or simply count down from some positive value. in order to go from negative to positive in this case, you MUST pass through zero or else risk losing uniformity in your conting system (2-1=1, but 1-(-1)=2).

As for the male/female cat thing, I literally could have used ANY object as the subject of my example. Don't inject such a complex statement into such a simple matter, as it becomes nothing but a trivial distraction from the core our disscussion. We talk about hypothetical objects, so their real-world significance is a moot-point.

0 cannot exist. Theres never nothing in our universe. Show me nothing in our universe. Show me 0 somethings i can count. You cannot.

Expand your horizon:
Firstly, you mention the universe but what belongs outside the universe. Very possibly, nothing at all!

Before time can noticably advance, it must first pass through an infintesimal amount of time which is so small as to be - literally - a zeroth of a second.

The distance between your eyes and the computer screen befor you can be forever halved. As the number of times you halve this distance approached infinity, you find that the distance, as a whole, can be expressed as a collection of an infinite amount of zero distances added together to create the observed distance.

You see, zeros are all around us. I you ever take calculus, you'll find its principals are entirely based around the number zero as in theabove example.

 

[righthead]

<--- Uses the defense of [Begin idiot voice]"Well zero is on the number line, it has to be a number then."[End idiot voice]

I swear the things people come up with... why doesn't anyone focus on better things, like cake. The world needs more great cake philosophers.

Pie is way better. Cake is a bland unenjoyably SOCIALIST desert.
Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.

And before you respond with some liberal cake loving garbage, look at the facts. Combine fruit and pie, delicious. Combine fruit and cake and well...you get the idea.

you may be right about cake, but frosting is awesome! and cheesecake is another matter entirely. And not just because you can combine it with fruit.

 

[KarumaK]

<--- Uses the defense of [Begin idiot voice]"Well zero is on the number line, it has to be a number then."[End idiot voice]

I swear the things people come up with... why doesn't anyone focus on better things, like cake. The world needs more great cake philosophers.

Pie is way better. Cake is a bland unenjoyably SOCIALIST desert.
Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.


And before you respond with some liberal cake loving garbage, look at the facts. Combine fruit and pie, delicious. Combine fruit and cake and well...you get the idea.

Pie is the last refuge of commie filth!
It is the stinking grasp of the red menace reaching into our homes to steal and corrupt our children.

Pie is better because you can combine it with fruit? Pff you can do the same with cake AND it tastes better. But that's irrelevant you can combine cake with ICE CREAM ICE CREAM!
Pie, really? This soul is already lost to evil.

 

[FluxCapacitor]

The war is won by he who stands last!! *insert evil laugh*

Nah. im not a troll yet.
just several years of debate club.

XD and i mean that zero is there because its easyer. Why is there a clip for a gun? Because its faster, easyer, and smart then all other methods developed.
I belive thats what 0 is. Its a clip in the gun of mathmatics. Without the clip, loading the gun would take to long and be to difficualt for the average child your trying to teach.

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

Surely the clip is as much a part of modern guns as any other? You can't operate a clip-fed gun without one. In that, a clip IS a little like the concept of zero - once you add it to your system, it makes everything so much better you wonder why you ever didn't have one.

EDIT: Oh, and zero having the value of nothing is not a paradox, because nothing is a synonym of zero. If you want a paradox, go with something like: Does the set of all groups containing nothing infact contain itself? Now THAT'S a paradox...

 

[antipope]

All numbers are conceptual. When we think of one it also is an abstract concept of singleness the fact that it is much easier to apply the concept of one to something material then it is to apply the concept of zero dose not make zero a less valid numerical concept.

Your first superstition that if you eat an apple it is still an apple is flawed. The apple can not be called an apple any more. It is now parts of apple it no longer fits the conception framework for a single apple it is instead a many peaces of apple.

Taking it further your statement that you can never have zero of something because the existence of the particles that make it are essential indestructible dose not take into account that you can no longer consider a particle that was once a piece of apple part of an at some point because it because it lacks the essential characteristics of an apple. For example there are zero Dodo birds left on the planet there is however many pieces of Dodo still in existence, feathers, bone and the occasional taxidermy specimen, yet we can not say that there are Dodo birds in existence as these example lack the essential quality of life that would qualify them as a Dodo bird.

Lastly you have proven your self wrong by giving the example of the the vacuum of space as an example of an absolute zero. If any example exist by default we must conclude that not only dose it exist conceptually but also as a material reality.

 

[Robby Foxfur]

I believe Zero is indeed a number, and i believe is it used to represent nothing, having nothing of whatever you are looking for to having. such as you have 0 bolts for all your nuts, or you have 0 molecules of air to breath. so there for Zero is the number of nothing. its not really a place holder it shows a divide between positive and negative and between them you have nothing.

 

[kouriichi]

The war is won by he who stands last!! *insert evil laugh*

Nah. im not a troll yet.
just several years of debate club.

XD and i mean that zero is there because its easyer. Why is there a clip for a gun? Because its faster, easyer, and smart then all other methods developed.
I belive thats what 0 is. Its a clip in the gun of mathmatics. Without the clip, loading the gun would take to long and be to difficualt for the average child your trying to teach.

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

Surely the clip is as much a part of modern guns as any other? You can't operate a clip-fed gun without one. In that, a clip IS a little like the concept of zero - once you add it to your system, it makes everything so much better you wonder why you ever didn't have one.

EDIT: Oh, and zero having the value of nothing is not a paradox, because nothing is a synonym of zero. If you want a paradox, go with something like: Does the set of all groups containing nothing infact contain itself? Now THAT'S a paradox...

its not a paradox. Its a good question that takes many hours of thought xD

Sure the clip is part of the gun, but there are hundreds of guns that dont use clips. Its there for the reason of ease.

you can do math without using 0. I belive its not a number, but its a space holder. its there for other numbers to be put. its an empty shell ((hehehe, pun)) waiting to be filled.

 

[starwarsgeek]

Something as simple as high school physics doesn't work without "0".

Edit: Also, basic chemistry. An equal number of protons and electrons exist within an atom, and it has no charge.

"Nothing can exist without the concept and value of nothing"
~My friend upon seeing your topic.

 

[righthead]

Does the set of all groups containing nothing infact contain itself? Now THAT'S a paradox...

that's not a paradox, because there is no group containing nothing. A group by definition must have an identity element. However if you're talking about the set of all sets containing nothing, it's still not because the set containing nothing is not nothing.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Seeing as plenty of math geniuses agree that zero falls into the "whole" numbers category as well as integers, rational, and real numbers; I'm going to have to say that yes it is a number. Although I think the point you are making is interesting.

 

[theSovietConnection]

Here's a good example for everyone. I think this may be a major point too.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up (relative to starting point)? 0 miles away
How far away did you travel? 0 miles away
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles away

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?

This example is flawed because of a simple error in logic. Your total distance travelled is 6 miles. Your total distance from the starting point is 0 miles. The two are seprate entities, yet you are trying to treat them as one single entity.

 

[cookyt]

Does the set of all groups containing nothing infact contain itself? Now THAT'S a paradox...

that's not a paradox, because there is no group containing nothing. A group by definition must have an identity element. However if you're talking about the set of all sets containing nothing, it's still not because the set containing nothing is not nothing.

how about this:

Should a list of lists which do not contain refrences to themselves contain itself?

 

[righthead]

<--- Uses the defense of [Begin idiot voice]"Well zero is on the number line, it has to be a number then."[End idiot voice]

I swear the things people come up with... why doesn't anyone focus on better things, like cake. The world needs more great cake philosophers.

Pie is way better. Cake is a bland unenjoyably SOCIALIST desert.
Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.


And before you respond with some liberal cake loving garbage, look at the facts. Combine fruit and pie, delicious. Combine fruit and cake and well...you get the idea.

Pie is the last refuge of commie filth!
It is the stinking grasp of the red menace reaching into our homes to steal and corrupt our children.

Pie is better because you can combine it with fruit? Pff you can do the same with cake AND it tastes better. But that's irrelevant you can combine cake with ICE CREAM ICE CREAM!
Pie, really? This soul is already lost to evil.

Looks like we got another liberal radical here.
Don't try to take one thing and call it something else, cake is socialist and always will be. Pie is the desert of freedom. It's anything you could possibly like simply housed in a crust, maybe even without crust, however you want it.
Pot pies, not my personal cup of tea but it just proves my point, pies can have anything you love even if it's meat.

Cake? It needs to be cake. You can "add" things but it still has to be a certain way. Can you have meat if that's what you want? No of course not, your only allowed sweet things. Have diabetes? Too bad, the liberal socialist regime doesn't even want you to live if you have such a condition.


EDIT: BTW nice try bending the truth in typical socialist fashion. You can put ice cream on pie and its WAY BETTER.
But will the liberals let you have this information? Of course not. They want to hide it, they don't want you to ask questions about desert.

I'm confused as to how as with cake being consigned to doing a thing the same way any time you do it makes you a liberal. seems to me that's the way conservatives like things. That and commies.

 

[Corvuus]

I'm sorry, but what you are talking about OP is, to be frank, quite inane and silly.


If you had any mathematical training (major, masters or Ph.D. in math, heck even a upper division math course on number theory, or any science background), then you wouldn't even do this. All i can conclude is that you have debate classes training in how to make an issue of something that isn't an issue.

---

Here are some assumptions for you:

1. There is a 'true' reality that is independent of human thought, language, etc. I.e.

Whether you call something gravity, chemistry, physics, light, etc. whatever we describe with human language, the universe couldn't careless. The planets will still be "in orbit", the stars will 'twinkle', the sun will still exist.

2. Human language, science, etc. is 'model', theory, words, etc. that help us understand, interact and comprehend the 'true' state of the universe.

There are imaginary numbers and all sorts of fun things out there, and apparently to you, the number zero. In terms of the universe, it couldn't careless what we call it, or how we use it. Our use of zero, imaginary numbers can be 'wrong' or approximations, but it doesn't matter if it helps us and makes things easier and just plain simple.

---

You want to debate something? Go debate whether Pluto is a planet or not. That makes more sense than debating whether zero is a number or not. Both "exist" in a sense but hey, maybe it will be like deciding zero should be named pie or cake or whatever else floats your boat.

-C

P.S. zero is a number.

 

[mjc0961]

I say yes because I think you're reading way, way too much into it. If I have zero apples in my room than that is the number of apples I have: zero. Just because I can also say I have no apples doesn't mean the actual number, zero, is no longer a number. If I have five apples, I can say I have many apples, does that replace five as a number? No.

... Whoa man. The guy on the bottom of page one (right above the reply box) said the SAME THING. Freaky. Also he makes a good point, if that's how we define number, then it is indeed a number.

 

[righthead]

Does the set of all groups containing nothing infact contain itself? Now THAT'S a paradox...

that's not a paradox, because there is no group containing nothing. A group by definition must have an identity element. However if you're talking about the set of all sets containing nothing, it's still not because the set containing nothing is not nothing.

how about this:

Should a list of lists which do not contain refrences to themselves contain itself?

if it does it's inaccurate, if it doesn't it's incomplete. Is the answer to this yes or no question no?

 

[FluxCapacitor]

its not a paradox. Its a good question that takes many hours of thought xD

Sure the clip is part of the gun, but there are hundreds of guns that dont use clips. Its there for the reason of ease.

you can do math without using 0. I belive its not a number, but its a space holder. its there for other numbers to be put. its an empty shell ((hehehe, pun)) waiting to be filled.

You can do simple math without using zero. You can also do math without using the number 9, if you're careful about how you do it or you use base 8 numbering. That doesn't change the fact that zero is a number, nor does it change the fact that 9 is a number (even represented in base 8 as 11). How do you give me a numerical answer to questions no other number accurately answers, answers about the lack of something looked for? By answering 0. It's a number.

And you want me to show you a box of 0 kittens? I'd show you a box with the word "kittens" on the front in big lettering and say "look at my box of kittens", to create the expectation of kittens. When you look in the box, and found no kittens, you (and any other reasonable person) would ask me why there are no kittens in the box, or question my sanity or something. The contextual cues about kittens cause you to wonder why there aren't any kittens. It is a box that meaningfully contains 0 kittens.

The "empty shell" in your mathematical system analogy above is in fact the decimal index columns - the ones, the tens, the hundreds, etc. In algorithms, there is an implied value of zero in all of these columns which I think you're trying to get at. But by going to a column and specifically writing a 0, we're specifying a value for that column in the constructed number. The empty shell is just that - a blank space. Filling it with a 0 is putting a numerical value into the blank space, it's saying "I checked, and there aren't any".