Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[Flamingpenguin]

I agree. Zero isn't really a number, but it is a digit.

...makes sense to me.

 

[WrongSprite]

When you say that zero is a concept, not a number, that is utterly confusing. Numbers are concepts by definition. So yeah...nothing else to say really.

 

[Gasaraki]

-Trent Snipzor-

While I do understand what you're saying, and I agree that zero is more of a concept than a number, I don't think your apple example's too good. When you start saying that you don't have 0 apples because there might still be a particle of apple, well that's just nitpicking.

 

[vivalahelvig]

well, zero is not a number....it is a word....a noun at that.
0 is a number although....i like elipses...think of it if i had zero elipses....
...

 

[Angleofdoom]

zero is an abstract concept used to give a value to nothing and as far as i know that does not make it a number

 

[koriantor]

Mathamatically speaking, zero is a number. Regardless of the end result, it still represents a value, even if it's no value.

What the heck is your defintion for a number/digit? Here's mine:

Websters defines a number as "a unit belonging to an abstract mathematical system and subject to specified laws of succession, addition, and multiplication" so it seems "0" fits that definition. Now stop being an idiot.

EDIT: Skoosh the question was directed towards the OP, not you, sorry

 

[kouriichi]

Im not being stubborn. im debating my side of the argument to the best of my ability.
But this arguement isnt about negatives. Its about 0. the argument of negative numbers existing is not relative.

But if you removed the 1 guy from he doggy door, you would just have a doggy door.
You by your logic, there would also be 0 garbage trucks in the doggy door, 0 fish in the doggy door, 0 explosives in the doggy door and 0 guys in the doggy door. techinically, there would be 0 everythings in the doggy door. Even 0 0's.

Its not a real number, because you cannot measure it in value. I cannot pay someone in 0 100 dollar bills. You cannot eat 0 real apples and survive.

in our universe, there is no such thing as 0, because something is always filling the space of 0.

If you removed the 1 guy from the 1 doggy door, there wouldent be 0 guys and 1 doggy door, there would be 1 doggy door flap and 1 doggy door. There would be something to take the guys place, even if it was just air.

Just the fact that you were able to clearly and concisely give multiple examples of what there was 0 of in the doggy door should mean that you understood the meaning and existence of zero. How could one use something that doesn't exist? Like I said, you (and most everyone else disputing 0's existence) keep trying to give zero (and other numbers) a material, physical form.
So my challenge to you (and everyone else that reads this) is to show us all a picture of "1". not the symbol "1" for the symbol is right there >> 1 <<. I just want a picture of 1. Show us all a picture of what 1 represents. And if you show a picture with 1 apple (which is not what I mean by a picture of 1, for it's just a picture of an apple), I will reply with a picture with zero apples. And you will no more be able to disprove that there are 0 apples in my picture than I would be able to disprove there is 1 apple in yours.

Well the problem is that your arguing a completely differnt subject.
Your arguing if all numbers are real or not.
this is about just 0 xD


The arguement im trying to make is that 0 is not a number, because it has no value. You cannot give me 0 $100 bills and have me say thanks. you can give me 1 $100 dollar bills and i would say thanks.

0 cannot be given or taken. 2-1=1, not 2-1. So it wouldent be 0 guys and a doggydoor, its just doggydoor. You wouldent include what you removed.

Sure, it is 0 guys and a doggydoggy door, but thats redundant. Its pointless to include it. Its pointless to include 0 of something. So the number 0 is not a number, because there is no accuall use for it.

It's easy to think of situations where objectively counting to zero can be as useful and meaningful as counting to another number because the thing being counted has still been defined, such as checking the hull of a boat for holes. If I count zero holes in my boat, and someone asks how many holes in my boat, I can say 'zero', and show them 0 holes in my boat by showing them my complete boat, with no holes. Once we define what we're counting outside of the count itself, then it becomes much clearer that zero is a number, like any other.

Well no, you owuldent be checking the hull of a boat of 0 holes, youd be checking the hull for 1 or more holes and finding none.

And you wouldent say, my boat has 0 holes, its complete, youd say it has every peice in place to complete it.

its like if you payed people to move stuff for you and you show up at your house where everything was missing, you wouldent say, "Theres 0 of everything in my house!!" you would say, "Theres nothing here."

Im saying, why use 0? its a number you cant attach to anything. When was the last time you told someone, "i have 0 of those." You wouldent. you would say "i dont have those." "I dont own any." or even "im empty on those."

0 isnt a number, for several reason. You cant place it, it has no value, and you cant use it without gimping your phrase xD a box with no cats in it is just a box. A bomb with no explosives is just a falling peice of metal.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

In my view, zero is not a number because a number represents a value or lack thereof (positive or negative)

Wait did you just accidentally disprove you theory of why Zero isn't a number? Because Zero indicates a lack of value or, in other words, nothing. So by your definition zero is a number. And before you say it, no, a negative number does not represent a lack of value. A negative number represents a value in the opposite direction. If you went -5 miles East you would be going 5 miles in the opposite direction of East. That still means that you are traveling a value.

Overall, though this is a very interesting discussion. Its nice to know that people like to challenge preconceived concepts to better understand the world around us. I applaud you for your work.

 

[SGrahambo]

Im not being stubborn. im debating my side of the argument to the best of my ability.
But this arguement isnt about negatives. Its about 0. the argument of negative numbers existing is not relative.

But if you removed the 1 guy from he doggy door, you would just have a doggy door.
You by your logic, there would also be 0 garbage trucks in the doggy door, 0 fish in the doggy door, 0 explosives in the doggy door and 0 guys in the doggy door. techinically, there would be 0 everythings in the doggy door. Even 0 0's.

Its not a real number, because you cannot measure it in value. I cannot pay someone in 0 100 dollar bills. You cannot eat 0 real apples and survive.

in our universe, there is no such thing as 0, because something is always filling the space of 0.

If you removed the 1 guy from the 1 doggy door, there wouldent be 0 guys and 1 doggy door, there would be 1 doggy door flap and 1 doggy door. There would be something to take the guys place, even if it was just air.

Just the fact that you were able to clearly and concisely give multiple examples of what there was 0 of in the doggy door should mean that you understood the meaning and existence of zero. How could one use something that doesn't exist? Like I said, you (and most everyone else disputing 0's existence) keep trying to give zero (and other numbers) a material, physical form.
So my challenge to you (and everyone else that reads this) is to show us all a picture of "1". not the symbol "1" for the symbol is right there >> 1 <<. I just want a picture of 1. Show us all a picture of what 1 represents. And if you show a picture with 1 apple (which is not what I mean by a picture of 1, for it's just a picture of an apple), I will reply with a picture with zero apples. And you will no more be able to disprove that there are 0 apples in my picture than I would be able to disprove there is 1 apple in yours.

Well the problem is that your arguing a completely differnt subject.
Your arguing if all numbers are real or not.
this is about just 0 xD


The arguement im trying to make is that 0 is not a number, because it has no value. You cannot give me 0 $100 bills and have me say thanks. you can give me 1 $100 dollar bills and i would say thanks.

0 cannot be given or taken. 2-1=1, not 2-1. So it wouldent be 0 guys and a doggydoor, its just doggydoor. You wouldent include what you removed.

Like I said again and again, you keep trying to give numbers a physical form. What I meant by the challenge to show a picture of "1" is not to prove or disprove the existence of all numbers, but to prove that the number "0" can be used in the exact same context as "1" (a picture with 1 apple vs a picture with 0 apples); that if a 1, being indisputably a number, can be used in the same context and/or situation as 0, then 0 must also represent a number.

And yes, I can give someone 0 $100 bills. I give people 0 $100 bills all the time. How many $100 bills did I just give you right now? 0. In fact, if you asked me how many $100 dollar bills I have ever given anyone in the entire duration of my life (the bank machine doesn't count.) I will say 0, because 0 is a number, and THE number that represents the quantity of $100 bills I have handed out.

Sure, it is 0 guys and a doggydoggy door, but thats redundant. Its pointless to include it. Its pointless to include 0 of something. So the number 0 is not a number, because there is no accuall use for it.

That is EXACTLY what I said in my first reply to you and you admitted that 0 guys in a doggy-door can be true. Just because it's redundant and pointless does not mean it doesn't exist. The Tellitubbies are redundant and pointless, and yet we have to suffer their existence.

 

[silversnake4133]

I like to think of zero as a place holder because that's what it does, it inhabits "empty" space in order to give a value to numbers 1-9 to give it a greater value. We only have nine numbers and a place holder, since every large number and fraction of a number is made up of those nine numbers and a place holder.

So even though it's not an "official" number of value, it is still essential to the combinations we have today that allow us to calculate.

 

[Deceptious]

Felt compelled to reply to this for some reason.
Yes i think zero is both a digit and a quantity
Take basic maths for example...

Well that's part of my point. Zero is used as a placeholder. 10 is ten, 0 is zero. 10 is not one zero now is it? 0 is simply used to write a higher number numerically such as 10, 20, 30, etc.

10 is literally One Zero
It is One 10 to-the-power 2 and Zero 10 to-the-power 2's
If you get me? One 10, and Zero 1s

Or say if i walked 1 meter forwards, and then one meter back (perfectly accurately)
I would have moved 2 meters, but i would be displaced by none.. zero

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

ehh it depends on the case i think, it is a placeholder yes, depending on what units you are using it can mean something, it can mean a physical quantity, however, by itself, zero is nothing.

 

[kikon9]

All numbers are just concepts. They wouldn't exist if humans didn't exist to make the concept. This is because numbers are only created by the human mind in order to rationalize what we observe. They exist in the same way that words or thoughts "exist" yet don't have an actual representation. Because numbers as a whole, don't exist. If zero doesn't exist then it is a number.

 

[HotFezz8]

I feel it is a number, it can be used to represent a value. I'm sure I used the wrong words for what I am trying to say. I'm tired don't blame me.

to be fair i was unable to finish your intro, because its half 2 am and im tired, but i second this notion above.

in the end the language we speak was initially designed to help direct other monkeys to the bananas, so lets go back and examine zero in that concept:

"how many bananas are in that tree gurg?"

"zero oleg".

zero represents a number, or a lack of something. by the same mantra negatives are also numbers, because they show that something isn't there that was.

fuck it, im just going to tick "yes"...

 

[FluxCapacitor]

Well no, you owuldent be checking the hull of a boat of 0 holes, youd be checking the hull for 1 or more holes and finding none.

And you wouldent say, my boat has 0 holes, its complete, youd say it has every peice in place to complete it.

its like if you payed people to move stuff for you and you show up at your house where everything was missing, you wouldent say, "Theres 0 of everything in my house!!" you would say, "Theres nothing here."

Im saying, why use 0? its a number you cant attach to anything. When was the last time you told someone, "i have 0 of those." You wouldent. you would say "i dont have those." "I dont own any." or even "im empty on those."

0 isnt a number, for several reason. You cant place it, it has no value, and you cant use it without gimping your phrase xD a box with no cats in it is just a box. A bomb with no explosives is just a falling peice of metal.

It's a drastic oversimplification of language to pretend that declaring the absence of something is no longer counting how many of that thing there is - whether we would say 'zero' or 'nothing' completely misses the point. The act of looking at your couch, and internally recognizing it as 'couch' involves counting how many couches you see before you, and getting to 1. When yo come home and your couch is stolen, you look at where your memory tells you there should be 1 couch, and counting 0 couches. Whether you would say 'I have zero couches' misses the point - you have assigned the value of zero to 'how many couches?', and you would then talk about the ramifications, ie. "who stole my f*cking couch?".

Attaching a number to the absence of an expected thing is important, and zero has a value - unsurprisingly, the value of zero is 0.

 

[kouriichi]

Im not being stubborn. im debating my side of the argument to the best of my ability.
But this arguement isnt about negatives. Its about 0. the argument of negative numbers existing is not relative.

But if you removed the 1 guy from he doggy door, you would just have a doggy door.
You by your logic, there would also be 0 garbage trucks in the doggy door, 0 fish in the doggy door, 0 explosives in the doggy door and 0 guys in the doggy door. techinically, there would be 0 everythings in the doggy door. Even 0 0's.

Its not a real number, because you cannot measure it in value. I cannot pay someone in 0 100 dollar bills. You cannot eat 0 real apples and survive.

in our universe, there is no such thing as 0, because something is always filling the space of 0.

If you removed the 1 guy from the 1 doggy door, there wouldent be 0 guys and 1 doggy door, there would be 1 doggy door flap and 1 doggy door. There would be something to take the guys place, even if it was just air.

Just the fact that you were able to clearly and concisely give multiple examples of what there was 0 of in the doggy door should mean that you understood the meaning and existence of zero. How could one use something that doesn't exist? Like I said, you (and most everyone else disputing 0's existence) keep trying to give zero (and other numbers) a material, physical form.
So my challenge to you (and everyone else that reads this) is to show us all a picture of "1". not the symbol "1" for the symbol is right there >> 1 <<. I just want a picture of 1. Show us all a picture of what 1 represents. And if you show a picture with 1 apple (which is not what I mean by a picture of 1, for it's just a picture of an apple), I will reply with a picture with zero apples. And you will no more be able to disprove that there are 0 apples in my picture than I would be able to disprove there is 1 apple in yours.

Well the problem is that your arguing a completely differnt subject.
Your arguing if all numbers are real or not.
this is about just 0 xD


The arguement im trying to make is that 0 is not a number, because it has no value. You cannot give me 0 $100 bills and have me say thanks. you can give me 1 $100 dollar bills and i would say thanks.

0 cannot be given or taken. 2-1=1, not 2-1. So it wouldent be 0 guys and a doggydoor, its just doggydoor. You wouldent include what you removed.

Like I said again and again, you keep trying to give numbers a physical form. What I meant by the challenge to show a picture of "1" is not to prove or disprove the existence of all numbers, but to prove that the number "0" can be used in the exact same context as "1" (a picture with 1 apple vs a picture with 0 apples); that if a 1, being indisputably a number, can be used in the same context and/or situation as 0, then 0 must also represent a number.

And yes, I can give someone 0 $100 bills. I give people 0 $100 bills all the time. How many $100 bills did I just give you right now? 0. In fact, if you asked me how many $100 dollar bills I have ever given anyone in the entire duration of my life (the bank machine doesn't count.) I will say 0, because 0 is a number, and THE number that represents the quantity of $100 bills I have handed out.

Sure, it is 0 guys and a doggydoggy door, but thats redundant. Its pointless to include it. Its pointless to include 0 of something. So the number 0 is not a number, because there is no accuall use for it.

That is EXACTLY what I said in my first reply to you and you admitted that 0 guys in a doggy-door can be true. Just because it's redundant and pointless does not mean it doesn't exist. The Tellitubbies are redundant and pointless, and yet we have to suffer their existence.

But theres the problem. All of that is pointless.
you would never give someone 0 $100 dollar bills.
you would never say, "i have 0 $100 dollar bills in the bank".
And its a machine. Its programmed to show something.
What im saying is, its pointless to use.
you break the normal way you talk to use the word 0.
Theres no reason to use it.
Oh, and the tellitubbies thing does have a point. it makes watching after children a dozen times easyer. They have a reason to be used. xD
Im not saying 0 as a whole doesnt exist, im saying its not a number, because it of the fact it has no value. its Nothing. its empty. its pointless.
Why say, "i have 0 $100 dollar bills in the bank" when you would say, "Im broke." or "its empty."
Its use is not useful. its a place holder. Its there for another object, number, or being to fill in.
i have an empty box. im not going to say, "i have a box with 0 contents". im going to say, "its a box." I wouldent lable it "Box with 0 objects inside." i would lable it "empty.".

your argument is that you CAN use 0. My argument is that there is no reason to, because there are better ways/reasons/uses/points not to. Your trying to force 0 to be used by saying you CAN use it. But do you?

The average person probably uses the word 0 once a week or less. I cannot recall the last time i used 0. ((other then in this thread ofcourse)).

 

[Feste the Jester]

Here's a good example for everyone. I think this may be a major point too.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up (relative to starting point)? 0 miles away
How far away did you travel? 0 miles away
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles away

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?

We just covered this in physics. The six miles you traveled would be your distance. However, o miles would be your displacement (distance between finishing and starting points). You're comparing to different terms here with these answers.

 

[kouriichi]

Well no, you owuldent be checking the hull of a boat of 0 holes, youd be checking the hull for 1 or more holes and finding none.

And you wouldent say, my boat has 0 holes, its complete, youd say it has every peice in place to complete it.

its like if you payed people to move stuff for you and you show up at your house where everything was missing, you wouldent say, "Theres 0 of everything in my house!!" you would say, "Theres nothing here."

Im saying, why use 0? its a number you cant attach to anything. When was the last time you told someone, "i have 0 of those." You wouldent. you would say "i dont have those." "I dont own any." or even "im empty on those."

0 isnt a number, for several reason. You cant place it, it has no value, and you cant use it without gimping your phrase xD a box with no cats in it is just a box. A bomb with no explosives is just a falling peice of metal.

It's a drastic oversimplification of language to pretend that declaring the absence of something is no longer counting how many of that thing there is - whether we would say 'zero' or 'nothing' completely misses the point. The act of looking at your couch, and internally recognizing it as 'couch' involves counting how many couches you see before you, and getting to 1. When yo come home and your couch is stolen, you look at where your memory tells you there should be 1 couch, and counting 0 couches. Whether you would say 'I have zero couches' misses the point - you have assigned the value of zero to 'how many couches?', and you would then talk about the ramifications, ie. "who stole my f*cking couch?".

Attaching a number to the absence of an expected thing is important, and zero has a value - unsurprisingly, the value of zero is 0.

But the value of 0 being 0 is a paradox.
Now youve ruined your own argument. XD
Because 0 is nothing and its value is nothing, 0=nothing.
There by, 0 has no value as i said.
If i see my couch missing, its not because theres 0 couchs,
its because im pissed i have to sit on the floor. When the internet is down, i dont think,
"OMGZ, 0 interwebz to be found!!" I think, "well crap. how am i gunna post on The Escapist."
Im trying to look at this from more of a scientific view then just, "you use 0 so it so its a number".

 

[ScruffyTheJanitor]

Zero is more conceptual than other numbers but in most cases can be treated as a number. Lets face it.. you'd not want to explain zero in the similar way as "i" (being the square root of negative one). It just makes sense to see it as a number.

 

[shadowyoasis]

All numbers are concepts. Romans didnt have the number zero they just had a whole diffrent number. instead of 10 they had x 20 would be xx 21 xxi so 0 it is a number in our system. Remember numbers are all in the head and created by man.

Romans didn't have math as we know it, mentioning the Roman numerical system is flawed in this argument. They didn't have math equations(problems) like 2 + 5 = 7.

The arguement im trying to make is that 0 is not a number, because it has no value. You cannot give me 0 $100 bills and have me say thanks. you can give me 1 $100 dollar bills and i would say thanks.

0 cannot be given or taken. 2-1=1, not 2-1. So it wouldent be 0 guys and a doggydoor, its just doggydoor. You wouldent include what you removed.

Sure, it is 0 guys and a doggydoggy door, but thats redundant. Its pointless to include it. Its pointless to include 0 of something. So the number 0 is not a number, because there is no accuall use for it.

Except for the fact that I actually can give you exactly 0 $100 dollar bills. 0 has a value, that value is null or none. You have expressed a concept of an object, in this case $100 dollar bills. You are then counting how many $100 dollar bills and giving it a value, in this case the value of none is 0. If 0 is not a number, than I ask you this. I have never given you any money and certain have not given you any $100 dollar bills. If that is the case, what is the numerical value of the number of $100 dollar bills I have given you?