Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[Nylarathotep]

snip

You could, but you wouldent want to because people could die of bleeding or infection at a later date.

Alright, I'll put it to you another way.

No number represents anything out of context.

I have here 1

Bullshit I do- 1 what?
I'm pretty sure I also have 2( ) 7 ( ) and 26 ( )

 

[righthead]

Is nothing, or what might otherwise be called the null value or zero a number? Being a mathematics major with aspirations of going on to graduate school I feel that I encounter it far to often in too many contexts to be able to make a complete philosophical argument as to why it should or should not be considered a number. However, in the more abstract concepts of mathematics it definitely has a purpose. As the identity, 0 provides the same service to addition as 1 provides to multiplication.

The identity in other circumstances can be anything that maps each object to itself in a group of objects acted upon by an operator. For example if you were to look at a triangle the ways you could rotate or flip it so that the triangle looks positioned the same whether or not the corners have exchanged places, the identity would be to simply not move it. This lack of action can be loosely referred to as nothing, Yet it is something that gives a valid result and so must be included as part of the set of possible actions that make the triangle appear to be the same way.

In a similar fashion I believe that zero is a number simply because it must be categorized with other numbers for the purpose of dealing with no change in addition. It may not be necessarily philosophically appropriate to call it a number, but it is such a mathematical convenience to call it such that it would be almost masochistic to not do so.

Simply put I believe zero is a number because mathematicians call it a number, and they should know. To argue otherwise philosophically would be akin to arguing something doesn't belong in a category that convention determines to be in such a category (which I don't claim to be necessarily faulty). To argue otherwise mathematically would be a contraction of many existent conventions and would probably require a reworking of the whole of mathematics on the most rigorous level.

In the end, whether or not zero is a number, really does depend on the definition of a number, so I have to ask, what is the definition of a number?

EDIT: or perhaps more appropriately, I challenge you to define numbers in such a way as to exclude zero

 

[kouriichi]

Because its value is not a value.

A contradiction in terms.

You put numbers to objects, and it will make some sense.

Show me Pi anything. Precisely Pi anything.

Write down the number lim (x->0) x

Show me i apples.

Either you must reject all these as numbers, or accept 0 as a number.

0's value is that of nothing. So it filling in the absences of something is pointless, because what its filling in would most likely be what? Nothing xD

So the binary system that your computer operates on is pointless. Gotcha.

So being able to differentiate between
1000
and
1

is pointless. Gotcha.

Again, define what a number is, according to you.

your taking my words the wrong way.
1000 is not 0.
0 is a place holder. using it is more or less pointless.
Im not saying it shouldent exist, im saying its not a number.
binary code doesnt run off just 0's. its one long string of 1's and 0's.
0 itself is pointless.

A number is something even slightly tangable. number is something that has value, describes quantity, and can be assigned to something.

1 is a number. there can be 1 cat.
2 is a number. there can be 2 cats.
294631946 is a number. Because there can be 294631946 cats.

Sure thats alot of cats, but the number can be assigned to something and have it be tangable.

You cannot put 0 to any object, because that object would not exist. 0 cats would just be nothing. because the act of putting 0 with cats nullifys the cat all together. It would just be 0. a place holder.
Like the underscore.
Is it a letter or number? no, its a place holder for a letter or number to be inserted.

So you cannot have a circuit with no current running trough it?

Write down 10, without using zero.

Write down 1001 without using zero.

Show me how to calculate vectors without the concept of a zero-vector.

Let us use cats as example, if tangible physical objects matter so much to you.

Show me i cats.

show me lim (x->0) x cats (hint, this is a number that is one infitesimally small step above zero, but is also as such included in a line of positive real numbers or part of the number line of ]0,Infinity] )

show me a picture of yourself holding -1 cats.

Show me precisely Pi cats.

In fact, show me anything tangible in any of those quantities. SHow me -1 apples. Pi water molecules, electric equipment with i voltage.

Zero is a number, a placeholder for the value of 'no value', just like 1 is just a placeholder for the value of 'singular whole unit'. Just like i is a placeholder for a value that cannot exist in the real world, and Pi for a value that is determinable only abstractly.

10 and 0 are 2 different numbers and were not arguing weather "i" is a real number or not. Were arguing 0. Not Pi, not Pie ((like the others)) and not negatives.

Is 0 a place holder? it cant be both a place holder and a value. For a place holder has no value, but the value put in it.

And i could show you -1 apples xD
*shows plate of 3* the 4th apple is in the fridge. go look if you want. When you come back with it, there maybe -3 apples because others have taken them.

 

[DoctorMike]

It's a number if -0 (minus Zero) is a number...

 

[kouriichi]

snip

You could, but you wouldent want to because people could die of bleeding or infection at a later date.

Alright, I'll put it to you another way.

No number represents anything out of context.

I have here 1

Bullshit I do- 1 what?
I'm pretty sure I also have 2( ) 7 ( ) and 26 ( )

You can have 1/2/7/26 nothing.
It doesnt exist to me, but it can exist to you.
But you cant have 0 something, because it doesnt exist to anyone

 

[Funkysandwich]

No, you could use 0, but it wouldent be as a number, but as a place holder.
Im not saying 0 doesnt have a purpose, im saying 0 isnt a number.
Its a place holder

People have been having arguments about this for a long time, it seems.

Records show that the ancient Greeks seemed unsure about the status of zero as a number. They asked themselves, "How can nothing be something?", leading to philosophical and, by the Medieval period, religious arguments about the nature and existence of zero and the vacuum.

Now we have reached the level of retarded internet arguments! However, we have the solution right here:

Zero, written 0, is both a number and the numerical digit used to represent that number in numerals. It plays a central role in mathematics as the additive identity of the integers, real numbers, and many other algebraic structures.

How can something that is not a number play a central role in mathematics?

 

[FluxCapacitor]

snip

You could, but you wouldent want to because people could die of bleeding or infection at a later date.

Alright, I'll put it to you another way.

No number represents anything out of context.

I have here 1

Bullshit I do- 1 what?
I'm pretty sure I also have 2( ) 7 ( ) and 26 ( )

Good luck there, Nylarathotep - we covered this back around page 5... Some folks simply refuse to accept that their functional definitions could possibly be anything other than right. He's not interested in rigour, or formalism, or logical correctness; however, he does believe whoever's still talking at the end of an argument is the winner. You cannot beat him without taking him to a university maths class, and he just doesn't wanna go...

 

[Nylarathotep]

Sure it does, I have 0 understanding of what you're trying to say, you fishy pirate man. And I take offense at your previous post; saying someone has 0 apples is a perfectly accurate and measurable indication of how many apples they have. Number.

*ragequits pointless argument after winning*

 

[Funkysandwich]

snip

You could, but you wouldent want to because people could die of bleeding or infection at a later date.

Alright, I'll put it to you another way.

No number represents anything out of context.

I have here 1

Bullshit I do- 1 what?
I'm pretty sure I also have 2( ) 7 ( ) and 26 ( )

Good luck there, Nylarathotep - we covered this back around page 5... Some folks simply refuse to accept that their functional definitions could possibly be anything other than right. He's not interested in rigour, or formalism, or ligical correctness; however, he does believe whoever's still talking at the end of an argument is the winner. You cannot beat him without taking him to a university maths class, and he just doesn't wanna go...

Reminds me of this:

 

[righthead]

Sure it does, I have 0 understanding of what you're trying to say, you fishy pirate man. And I take offense at your previous post; saying someone has 0 apples is a perfectly accurate and measurable indication of how many apples they have. Number.

*ragequits pointless argument after winning*

zero people ever ragequit after winning

 

[kouriichi]

Sure it does, I have 0 understanding of what you're trying to say, you fishy pirate man. And I take offense at your previous post; saying someone has 0 apples is a perfectly accurate and measurable indication of how many apples they have. Number.

*ragequits pointless argument after winning*

wait, was that directed at me? xD

If so you cant measure nothing, because theres nothing to measure.

if there are 0 apples you cant measure the number of apples there are, thus you wouldent now it was truely 0 because you couldent accually measure the number of apples.

ow. i think i pulled something vital.

 

[twasdfzxcv]

If you want to argue that zero is not a number, then it can also be argued that all number are concept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_object

There's never one apple. There is "this" particular apple or "that" particular apple.

if someone already raised this point then sorry for the re-post but I'm not going back 10 pages for something this trivial.

 

[A Free Man]

Sorry but I will have to blatently disagree with you there. 0 is most definately a number and I think the problem here is you are making some mistakes with definitions and the difference between reality and theory.

But I'd like you to take a step back and examine it further. I claim that zero is more of a concept than a number. It is a placeholder to theorize the space between positive and negative.

The only time you can have zero of something is in a vacuum (space). And even then, you technically would call it "a vacuum", implying that there is "one" vacuum.

Here you are mistaking reality for theory, in fact there are many times you can get 0 of something. For example any unit of measurement can have a theoretical value of 0 of course it is impossible for this to be realistic but in maths it can.

Say for example you have an apple. You then eat the apple. You still have one apple, it's just in a different locale.

Here you are talking about chemistry because if you define an apple as fruit that you get off a tree and then eat then you won't actually have one apple after eating it you will just have the same amount of molecules as per the original apple. But on a molecular level you will never go below one molecule so you could use this argument for anything but I don't think it really applies to the topic.

For another example, say you travel -1 miles forwards. Well all that means is that you traveled 1 mile BACKWARDS. Positive and negative imply direction. Zero has no direction, and no value.

Actually negative and positive does not imply direction unless you are talkin about physics. (eg. If you have $-2 in your bank account you do not have $2 to the left of your account of course.)

Plus, consider the possibility that there may be, ONE SINGLE PARTICLE of an apple in my room, SOMEWHERE. Just one. It may be in the air, on my desk, on the wall, whatever. That's just .000000000000000000000000000000000001 apples or whatever, not zero.

Again this is referring to chemistry because that .000000000000000000000000000000000001 of an apple may be one element or more likely a chain of elements but that means you now no longer actually have an apple you just have a chain of elements.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up (relative to starting point)? 0 miles away
How far away did you travel? 0 miles away
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles away

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?

Now you are mistaking displacement for distance. Displacement is the distance from your start point from your end point whereas distance is the total distance actually covered. In this case your displacement is 0 and distance is 6. However the two measurements are actually very different although they use the same unit of measurement and appear quite similar so they are often confused. Thus you did not travel 6 miles and 0 miles so this argument is invalid.

I hope that this helps in some way. Also you should be more specific in your question because from a mathematical point of view (eg. my view ) 0 most definatley is a number. However your arguments are quite logical the main problem is that you have simply used multiple different areas of study and taken facts (although true) out of context in order to make it appear like a valid argument.

 

[righthead]

Sure it does, I have 0 understanding of what you're trying to say, you fishy pirate man. And I take offense at your previous post; saying someone has 0 apples is a perfectly accurate and measurable indication of how many apples they have. Number.

*ragequits pointless argument after winning*

wait, was that directed at me? xD

If so you cant measure nothing, because theres nothing to measure.

if there are 0 apples you cant measure the number of apples there are, thus you wouldent now it was truely 0 because you couldent accually measure the number of apples.

ow. i think i pulled something vital.

So from context I infer that your definition of a number is something that can be measured, is that correct?

 

[FluxCapacitor]

Sure it does, I have 0 understanding of what you're trying to say, you fishy pirate man. And I take offense at your previous post; saying someone has 0 apples is a perfectly accurate and measurable indication of how many apples they have. Number.

*ragequits pointless argument after winning*

zero people ever ragequit after winning

Well played, sir. Does that make Nylarathotep a placeholder somehow?

 

[Coldie]

Good luck there, Nylarathotep - we covered this back around page 5... Some folks simply refuse to accept that their functional definitions could possibly be anything other than right. He's not interested in rigour, or formalism, or ligical correctness; however, he does believe whoever's still talking at the end of an argument is the winner. You cannot beat him without taking him to a university maths class, and he just doesn't wanna go...

That's actually a surprising amount of sense on their part. If someone brought this level of Insane Troll Logic into a university classroom, the professor will laugh them out of the building and/or shoot them.

Zero is no more and no less a number than any other number. Zero is the fulcrum of mathematics and, therefore, of everything else that even touches the most basic forms of math.

 

[righthead]

Sure it does, I have 0 understanding of what you're trying to say, you fishy pirate man. And I take offense at your previous post; saying someone has 0 apples is a perfectly accurate and measurable indication of how many apples they have. Number.

*ragequits pointless argument after winning*

zero people ever ragequit after winning

Well played, sir. Does that make Nylarathotep a placeholder somehow?

I think so, along with all the other zero people who ragequit after winning.

 

[kouriichi]

Sure it does, I have 0 understanding of what you're trying to say, you fishy pirate man. And I take offense at your previous post; saying someone has 0 apples is a perfectly accurate and measurable indication of how many apples they have. Number.

*ragequits pointless argument after winning*

wait, was that directed at me? xD

If so you cant measure nothing, because theres nothing to measure.

if there are 0 apples you cant measure the number of apples there are, thus you wouldent now it was truely 0 because you couldent accually measure the number of apples.

ow. i think i pulled something vital.

So from context I infer that your definition of a number is something that can be measured, is that correct?

More then that. Something tanganle. Something that can be givin, taken, or subject to change. It has to have value.

 

[righthead]

Sure it does, I have 0 understanding of what you're trying to say, you fishy pirate man. And I take offense at your previous post; saying someone has 0 apples is a perfectly accurate and measurable indication of how many apples they have. Number.

*ragequits pointless argument after winning*

wait, was that directed at me? xD

If so you cant measure nothing, because theres nothing to measure.

if there are 0 apples you cant measure the number of apples there are, thus you wouldent now it was truely 0 because you couldent accually measure the number of apples.

ow. i think i pulled something vital.

So from context I infer that your definition of a number is something that can be measured, is that correct?

More then that. Something tanganle. Something that can be givin, taken, or subject to change. It has to have value.

wouldn't that be an object rather than a number?

 

[KarumaK]

SNIP*
More lies from the wolf.
I told you to stop taking one thing and calling it another. I am not a commie, communism is the belief that all deserts and people need to follow a strict pattern to be acceptable. This is your belief, not mine. Liberals like you say pie is not good with ice cream, when you say that you are taking away my freedom of belief in typical liberal fashion. Maybe not everyone likes ice cream on pie, I respect that, but I believe we need more than ice cream. For that matter, i believe we need more than desert. I believe we need freedom, something you liberals know nothing about. I believe we need a choice in our desert, and pie is the only desert that allows this freedom. There is no such thing as a meat cake or a sugar free cake, these are facts. Your just making things up to brainwash people and I find it revolting.

When Hitler first wanted to seize control, his first act was endorsing cake. It was perfect in his sick mind, everyone eating cake so people unable to tolerate the high level of sugar would be forced to die. The problem was too many rebels disliked this idea so they ate pie, and the nazis tried to put a stop to this. They started with the pie eaters, then the conservative Christians, by the end nobody was left to stop them except the Americans.

I just read a history book, and I'll be honest, it scared the living shit out of me. Please read one, it has so much information and now I see it happening all over again. If we don't do something to stop these cake pushing fascists, nobody will be left to stop them this time.

Hah the only wolf here is you, here to pray on our righteous flock. You deny your commie origin espousing freedom while condemning all deserts not pie. You call me a liberal then you say I do not want freedom? Choose little commie if freedom is not what I want how can I be liberal? If I consider ice cream to improve cake how can I deny choice in our sweet after-meal? And most importantly how DARE you deny the existence of cake variety?! No we'll not fall for you devil's tongue today you monster you. You will not claim pie to be the domain of freedom so long as cake and its delicious allies stand together. Cookie is with us, donut is with us, ice cream is with us, candy is with us! We stand an alliance of freedom against that most heinous of tyrants!

You fool so deep into your pie propaganda that you cannot see the facts so easily visible to anyone. Hitler devoured only pie, every second of every day, it is this of course that led to his great evil. He was but a man how could he withstand the corrupting influence of the dark pastry.

And in the last move left you claim that your history book delivered you this truth? This pie endorsed madness, I can't help but wonder at how deep this has gotten. Fascism you claim... I know fascism my friend and it is a 3 letter word for EVIL.

It should be recognized that no form of desert is absolutely perfect. Some are better and sometimes it can be difficult to tell which is best, often times the most fervent believers are not evil or tyrannical but simply misled. What's most important is we all eat bacon.

Bacon is a glorious treat I'll accept, and far be it from one so humble as me to claim cake is perfect, but to acknowledge pie as an equal?! Such an affront to our delicious honor cannot be sustained with no good faith to rely on.

HOW DARE YOU!
HOW DARE YOU SIR, NO sir is what you call a respectable human being. HOW DARE YOU CAKE EATER!
How dare you deny what happened during the holocaust? HOW DARE YOU!
What's next, your going to tell me cake was persecuted and pie was his favorite pastry? LIES!
I can't even....DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY!
Up in the attics, where christian conservatives hid from the nazis (only until they grow in numbers for them to overthrow the nazis, after all they wouldn't just hide all the time like SOME PEOPLE MIGHT) they lived on pie. Without pie, they would have abandoned their beliefs and let the cake induced diabetes kill them off as Hitler intended BUT THEY HELD STRONG. The pie kept them strong. They knew they needed to keep living, so that they may continue to taste the glorious freedom of pie.
Is there such a thing as "American as apple cake" NO! BECAUSE YOU LIBERALS DON'T ALLOW APPLES IN YOUR PRECIOUS NAZI CAKE!
HOW DARE YOU!

And there it is, vindication. Notice how even the false logic the pie shover had before disintegrates entirely in the face of truth. The raving of a brainwashed zealot sounds throughout brought short by the unbreakable wall of truth. You corrupt the truth of such a dark event with wild lies about Christians and Nazis. Pie is the source of the evil that was Nazi Germany it is the very teat, from which madman are nurtured.

And were it not for pie the Nazi party would never have risen to power, free pie for all at the meetings and the corruption spreads. With the spread of pie came the spread of hate, the spread of fear, the spread of TRUE EVIL. There is no such thing as "American as apple cake" because it is not a national truth but a GLOBAL truth.

Cake is for everyone, like freedom.

LOOK AT THE CAKE EATING WORLD AROUND YOU!
Freedom a universal concept? LIES! Freedom was invented in America, the rest of the world just haven't had freedom spread their yet.
I can't believe you would lie about the....GRRR....HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT!
READ A HISTORY BOOK YOU....GAH!!!!


GET OFF MY THREAD!!!!!!! GET OFF MY THREAD you little PINHEAD!

GAAAHD!! I am losing my MIND today....

There may just be hope for you yet, THAT my friend is the shining light of TRUTH beaming into your head.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIVE LIKE THIS! YOU DON'T NEED TO LIVE IN FEAR! We can help you we can protect you from pie, come with me and be released from the darkness! Come with me and be cleansed of your sin! We can save you ALL of you if you'd just let the truth be revealed.

Realize the truth my friend, throw off the shackles of hate and suffering realize your freedom and you will know happiness.

Take a moment, have a slice of cake... and serenity is yours.

Do not peddle your poison to me candy man. DON'T PEDDLE YOUR POISON HERE!
I WILL NOT EAT YOUR LIBERAL FREEDOM HATING FOOD!
Have you no shame? KIDS COULD BE ON HERE. Your spreading this idea that cake is ok to eat and kids might see that and think it is, your SICK!

*Sigh* I thought there was hope...

I'll go, I'll leave you to your empty pie-filled existence. It is not our way to enforce our beliefs upon others. If you cannot accept cake for the wonder it is, then I cannot help you. I can only hope that one day you people learn the truth, that you children and you children's children can live free.

But regardless I do not believe it will be soon enough for you, you are lost. Goodbye sir, may you eventually taste the frosting.