Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

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Guttural Engagement

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Me and my friend were actually talking about this earlier today and we both agreed zero was not a factual existing NUMBER.

I too have the perspective that Zero is just a 'placeholder' for nonexistence. Like your apple analogy, If you have zero apples in your room; there are no existing apples within that area of space.

Zero is neither negative nor positive for this reason; cause it's non-existent. Zero is just the numerical word for nonexistence IMO.
 

Requx

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Mar 28, 2010
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If a number is a representation of an ammount, then of course zero is a number. Just like any other number. Unless your trying to say "0" is the actually the letter "O" in disguise...then I agree with you.
 

Guttural Engagement

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ShredHexus said:
A number is a quantity. Nothing is still a quantity, or rather, the lack of quantity
Exactly, meaning that Zero of something, is nonexistent. Nonexistent is the same thing as zero. Zero is a numerical word for the nonexistence of something. That doesn't make zero a quantity; because you cannot count what does not exist. Although you can state that it does not exist (Thus, the creation of the numerical representation of nothing).
 

Funkysandwich

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Jan 15, 2010
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Guttural Engagement said:
ShredHexus said:
A number is a quantity. Nothing is still a quantity, or rather, the lack of quantity
Exactly, meaning that Zero of something, is nonexistent. Nonexistent is the same thing as zero. Zero is a numerical word for the nonexistence of something. That doesn't make zero a quantity; because you cannot count what does not exist. Although you can state that it does not exist (Thus, the creation of the numerical representation of nothing).
This would be all well and good if zero wasn't used to calculate anything, however, it is used in mathematics quite often. Since you can't use a nonexistent number, zero must be a real number.
 

Guttural Engagement

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Funkysandwich said:
Guttural Engagement said:
ShredHexus said:
A number is a quantity. Nothing is still a quantity, or rather, the lack of quantity
Exactly, meaning that Zero of something, is nonexistent. Nonexistent is the same thing as zero. Zero is a numerical word for the nonexistence of something. That doesn't make zero a quantity; because you cannot count what does not exist. Although you can state that it does not exist (Thus, the creation of the numerical representation of nothing).
This would be all well and good if zero wasn't used to calculate anything, however, it is used in mathematics quite often. Since you can't use a nonexistent number, zero must be a real number.
Zero is yet again, just a placeholder for nothing. This works in mathematics because of addition and subtraction and because of negative/positive numbers. When you have less than zero of something, that just means you 'owe' a certain amount of that before you will be able to gain it for yourself (Like owing money to a credit card company). Technically, you can't multiply or divide something by zero (But it IS Theoretically possible), because with multiplication; you're just counting off how many groups of another number you have (7 * 0 would mean you have zero groups of seven. Meaning you have nothing). This still does not give zero a VALUE.

What OP and me mean, is that Zero has no actual VALUE - it's nonexistent. The word Zero is just a placeholder for nothing. Neither positive nor negative.

An analogy for this would be matter, matter would be positive; and anti-matter would be negative. (Although, in terms of existence; there are only two sides - positive and negative, there isn't a "Zero").
 

Funkysandwich

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Guttural Engagement said:
Funkysandwich said:
Guttural Engagement said:
ShredHexus said:
A number is a quantity. Nothing is still a quantity, or rather, the lack of quantity
Exactly, meaning that Zero of something, is nonexistent. Nonexistent is the same thing as zero. Zero is a numerical word for the nonexistence of something. That doesn't make zero a quantity; because you cannot count what does not exist. Although you can state that it does not exist (Thus, the creation of the numerical representation of nothing).
This would be all well and good if zero wasn't used to calculate anything, however, it is used in mathematics quite often. Since you can't use a nonexistent number, zero must be a real number.
Zero is yet again, just a placeholder for nothing. This works in mathematics because of addition and subtraction and because of negative/positive numbers. When you have less than zero of something, that just means you 'owe' a certain amount of that before you will be able to gain it for yourself (Like owing money to a credit card company). Technically, you can't multiply or divide something by zero (But it IS Theoretically possible), because with multiplication; you're just counting off how many groups of another number you have (7 * 0 would mean you have zero groups of seven. Meaning you have nothing). This still does not give zero a VALUE.

What OP and me mean, is that Zero has no actual VALUE - it's nonexistent. The word Zero is just a placeholder for nothing. Neither positive nor negative.

An analogy for this would be matter, matter would be positive; and anti-matter would be negative. (Although, in terms of existence; there are only two sides - positive and negative, there isn't a "Zero").
Read the bloody thread, there have been god knows how many people saying the same crap over and over and it's already been proved that your point is not valid or correct. Basically your argument went out the window by about page 6.

I don't need to say any more, it's already been said.
 

FluxCapacitor

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I said it last page, I'll say it again. THIS IS NOT A POP PHILOSOPHY QUESTION WHERE WHATEVER YOU WANT TO BELIEVE CAN BE CALLED TRUE. IT IS A MATHEMATICAL QUESTION, AND AS SUCH MATHS CAN AND DOES ANSWER IT.

For anyone who actually cares what the true answer is, we've got mathematical reasons from mathematical people as to why zero is a number peppered all through this thread. We do set theory, Euler's identity, definitions of a number, all numbers as external constructs intangible without context, irrationals and imaginaries also being numbers (despite a lack of physical representation), context implying a lack of an expected thing as a valid real world representation of zero, an implied 'silent' zero of everything you are not currently observing, all sorts of good stuff. There are definite answers to such questions, and you too can know them, if you want to.

Or you can cling to ignorance, I guess nothing we could do can take that away unless you're willing to get rid of it.
 

havass

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[Begin idiot voice] Zero is on the number line! Thus it IS a number! [End idiot voice]
Now. Set a puppy on fire.

OT: You make a convincing arguement. Now I'm not sure what I believe.
But then again, Zero's not a number because
 

Biosophilogical

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crystalsnow said:
-le snip-
Okay, I understand where you are coming from, and I truly do consider it a great train of thought. However, while intelligent, it is misguided. In the case of your 'apple particle' idea, you are applying too much maths (I know right; too much maths? no such thing!). An apple is an entirety, and a common misconception (or perhaps just a lazy way of verbalising reality) is that a former piece of apple that is no longer an apple is merely a fraction of an apple. This is, in fact, a mistake. It is like the difference between spiritual truths and actual truths; while both contain the word 'truth' that doesn't mean they are both true. Now if we apply the same concept to 'half-eaten apple' and 'apple'; while both contain the word 'apple', the former is not an apple, but merely uses the term to describe a new entirety. So when you say "there is an apple particle and therefore 0.00000000001 apples" it is incorrect. While it is a good way to convey a message, the particle is not an apple, as an apple is a whole. Think of it like this, a carbon atom is not 0.2 methane particles, it is a carbon atom, and a methane, while containing carbon, is not carbon. I feel like I'm explaining this section badly, but my main point is that your example uses a poor analogy, as an 'apple particle' is not an apple.

As for seeing '0 cats'. If there is no cat in your vision right now, you are seeing 0 cats, because 0 cats is an absence of cats, and therefore, if you see a lack of cats, you are seeing 0 cats. The idea of 0 is that it perfectly describes the number of an object present. The best way I can describe it (through the use of what I presume is an analogy) is this.

Action and inaction are merely two words used to describe components of an existential whole: "action". While the component and the whole share a name, they are not identical, as the component is misconstrued to mean a motion, or changing event which produces results, whilst an inaction is used to describe a motionless occurence. However, an inaction is merely a form of action, as it is a degree to which someone reacts, just with zero motion. Once aagin, I feel that my wording fails to capture the concept properly, but the idea is that an absence of something (zero quantity) is merely a unit of measurement (a number) just as three of something is a unit of measurement. What I'm trying to say is that an absence of something and the presence of something are merely two components of the whole (the whole being "existence" and the components being ways in which they are measured).

So yeah, zero is a number, just as one, two, negative eight and every other one is. The only issue is that people seek to form black and white distinctions between these things, rather than experiencing the entirety of the concept.
 

Sejs Cube

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Yes, it is a number. It's adorable that you're exploring new ideas, but no, crystalsnow, you are not revolutionizing mathematics or science. You are just being a flaccid faux-intellectual on the internet. Please, do stop.
 

PatrickXD

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Tibike77 said:
A "number" is defined as an abstract mathematical object that is used for measurements or counting, and "zero" is certainly a number going by that definition.
Would your question have been "is ZERO a valid quantity", you might have sort of had a point.
I'm going to go ahead and agree with you. My vote is 0 is a number.
 

BiscuitTrouser

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May 19, 2008
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bad rider said:
BiscuitTrouser said:
If aliens came to our planet the one thing we would have in common was the ability to count.
Bullshit. You can't guarantee aliens could count, that would be like me telling you god is a goldfish. Don't spout facts you can't prove please.
Ok ill usea different example. Every civilisation ever discovered that had some form of counting. Even though many had no concept of zero. Notice i say civilisation. I mean like successfull, the egyptions, the romans, the byzantians, the aztecs, the myans, ALL could count despite never meeting eachother. Its a natural evolution of civilisation to adopt the counting structure. All had a concept of 1 thing.
 

yoyo13rom

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SirBryghtside said:
I think you misunderstood me...

The OP was talking about how you have to go distances to end up at 0, so 0 doesn't count. However, my argument was that you can go a distance in one axis, and move 0 in another to invalidate his argument. To clarify, I think that zero is a number.

The only part I can think of that might have confused was the notation - (0,2) basically means going 0 units in the X axis and 2 in the Y.
Oops. I actually did misunderstood you. I mean I didn't read your other posts, and it was really late where I'm from, and there is a difference in notation when it comes to the comas, from place to place.

I mean in Romania 2 dollars and 35 cents is written this way: 2,35$ (although Americans write it with a dot, like this 2.35). And this always confuses me when it comes to numbers.
I mean when I saw 0,2 I didn't know if it was 2 tenths or just 0 east and 2 north.

Now that everything's clear, fine and dandy, I think we can put this thread to rest now.

Come on guys even if you think zero is not a number that's not such a big deal. It brings you 0 accomplishment points(although you might be better at maths if you know and understand that it is a number).
 

StompinPaul

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Aug 26, 2010
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Maybe someone has used this approach earlier in the thread and I missed it, but here goes.

One case where 0 =/= null is where distance is involved. Specifically, consider the relationship between an object (e.g. me) and an origin point (e.g. the location where I am sitting in my chair). Now, if I got up to go to the bathroom, I would have a displacement of <0 and be some distance away from origin. While I'm sitting in my chair though, my displacement is 0 which still represents a location relative to an origin point (in retrospect the analogy might work better simply by drawing a graph but oh well). This is different from something with a displacement of null from origin such as anger or comprehension(for example) which, being abstract concepts have no physical position of any kind (hence the displacement value of null from origin).
On this basis I say that 0 is a number and not simply a placeholder for null.

Also: while saying that there are 0 cats in an (empty) box is unnecessarily specific in most cases and we commonly just say that there is nothing in the box, 'nothing in the box' is actually a placeholder for too many statements to list including:
there are 0 cats in the box
there are 0 emus in the box
there are 0 children in the box
there are 0 items of food in the box
there are 0 insects in the box
there are 0 bricks in the box
etc. (Although these in fact cover larger branches of results, such as "there are 0 chipped bricks in the box", "there are 0 broken bricks in the box", "there are 0 circular bricks in the box" and so on)
Which of these are valuable depends of frame of reference. If I just want to know what's in the box, nothing is the only satisfactory answer. However, if I am looking for the number cats in boxes worldwide, I don't really care what's in the box beyond the number of cats, and so saying there are 0 cats in the box is (imperceptibly) better, or at least more efficient, then saying there is nothing in the box which gives me additional information that I don't need or want.
 

MasterV

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Aug 9, 2010
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I can't believe this thing has so many comments. Anyway, OP, your argument has flaws. The appleparticle thing at the beginning, no. Wrong. It's like saying you see a human arm dropped in a ditch and say "Oh look! There's a human thrown in there!" An arm isn't a complete human being as much as a particle isn't an apple.

As for your edit, 6 is the total distance travelled, but that 0 in the end is the difference between your starting and finishing positions, which is measured by the NUMBER 0, NOT the digit. Because it's the numeric VALUE of none. Which is the (Distance forth)-(distance back)=0. So yeah, 0 is a number and your logic is flawed.
 

Maze1125

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mrpenguinismyhomeboy said:
{} is a little thing called the empty set. The empty set is by far, the only way to represent absolute nothingness in mathematics. It is something which has no value. It's cardinality (the number of numbers in the set) is zero. So in other words, it has no numbers in it.
You need to take a little more Set Theory.
Once you use sets to construct the natural numbers, 0 is defined to be the empty set.

Guttural Engagement said:
An analogy for this would be matter, matter would be positive; and anti-matter would be negative. (Although, in terms of existence; there are only two sides - positive and negative, there isn't a "Zero").
A photon is its own anti-particle.
As such, in this analogy, -p = p, and so p = 0.

So, if matter is positive and anti-matter negative, photons are zero.
 

El Poncho

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May 21, 2009
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From what I have learned so far in maths Zero is not a Natural number but it is a Whole Number and an Integer.
 

Salmaras

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Sep 5, 2009
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Zero is a value, and theresfore is a number, even if it is merely the number that denotes emptiness