Poll: Japanese games Misunderstood?

[azncutthroat]

...that's reading way, way, way too much into it.

It's also ignoring the vast body of linear Western games and the existence of Japanese sandbox games (I'll see your Grand Theft Auto and raise you an Animal Crossing),

What, are you saying that cultural differences is not a factor in Japanese games being misunderstood?

Also, how "[do] I ignore the vast body of linear Western games," since I did not make a sweeping generalization on Western games, but an observation on a characteristic in Western games?

For example, Western culture is greatly influenced by democratic principals and personal freedom, hence why [/b]Western games typically allow a great deal of choice and freedom for players[/b], most notably sandbox games like GTA.

Hint: "Typically" is not the same meaning as "every".

and the fact that Japan's gamers and the industry that caters to them are among the most individualist of the Japanese. Also not getting into the fact that Japan has been a liberal democracy for quite a long time now.

As for your claim that "Japan's gamers and the industry that caters to them are among the most individualist of the Japanese", that is sweeping generalization that can't be proven. Even if this was a recognizable trend, being an individualist in Japan is not the same degree as being an individualist in the US or Europe.

And actually, Japan is a parliamentary/constitutional monarchy (since there's still a royal family). Shows how much you know about Japan.

 

[azncutthroat]

No, they just tend to suck. There are some good ones obviously, but If you want to play a horrible, badly dubbed, culturally irrelevant, tedious, cliched, and sucky game, the Japanese have made it.

Wow, what a nice post with (not so subtle) racist undertones that is built up on pure prejudice!

 

[AWAR]

Woah I 've never seen so many trolls concentrated in one place..

 

[azncutthroat]

No not really.

I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, I'll admit, but I find it hard to believe that in Japan cliches are considered excellent gameplay/story.

Did you ever consider that maybe what we consider cliche aren't considered cliche in Japan? No, apparently, what with your cultural hegemonist attitude and most every other Escapist...

 

[Treeinthewoods]

Ever play Rapelay? I don't think anybody misunderstands that game.

 

[azncutthroat]

Ever play Rapelay? I don't think anybody misunderstands that game.

Because knowing one Japanese porn game means that every Japanese game is just as understandable.

I must say, that is quite a logical and relevant argument, if it wasn't based on ignorant tripe.

 

[Nmil-ek]

Ever play Rapelay? I don't think anybody misunderstands that game.

Custers Revenge 1982, lets not resort to generalisations about an entire nations gaming industry huh?

 

[Treeinthewoods]

Ever play Rapelay? I don't think anybody misunderstands that game.

Because knowing one Japanese porn game means that every Japanese game is just as understandable.

I must say, that is quite a logical and relevant argument, if it wasn't based on ignorant tripe.

And I must say that certain people seem to be overly sensitive to sarcasm. These people should probably take a deep breath and realize not every flippant internet post is a direct personal insult.

Conclusively, I stand by my original statement. Nobody misunderstands Rapelay.

 

[Thaius]

Well, Japanese games that aren't JRPGs are games like Mario and Legend of Zelda. Besides that, most of them are, besides the really different ones like Phoenix Wright, which are generally cherished. I would say that JRPGs are misunderstood, but I think other Japanese games get plenty of loving.

 

[NeutralDrow]

...that's reading way, way, way too much into it.

It's also ignoring the vast body of linear Western games and the existence of Japanese sandbox games (I'll see your Grand Theft Auto and raise you an Animal Crossing),

What, are you saying that cultural differences is not a factor in Japanese games being misunderstood?

No, but cultural differences are a factor in storytelling far more than gameplay.

You might have noticed that the mass of criticism about Final Fantasy XIII's extreme linearity, for instance, came initially from Japanese gamers.

Also, how "[do] I ignore the vast body of linear Western games," since I did not make a sweeping generalization on Western games, but an observation on a characteristic in Western games?

For example, Western culture is greatly influenced by democratic principals and personal freedom, hence why [/b]Western games typically allow a great deal of choice and freedom for players[/b], most notably sandbox games like GTA.

Hint: "Typically" is not the same meaning as "every".

"Typically" is very much a sweeping generalization, spiced with a weasel word. Especially since you also ignore that this tendency is not uncommon in Japan, either.

and the fact that Japan's gamers and the industry that caters to them are among the most individualist of the Japanese. Also not getting into the fact that Japan has been a liberal democracy for quite a long time now.

As for your claim that "Japan's gamers and the industry that caters to them are among the most individualist of the Japanese", that is sweeping generalization that can't be proven. Even if this was a recognizable trend, being an individualist in Japan is not the same degree as being an individualist in the US or Europe.

Of course not. That's because being an individualist in the US or Europe is like being dark-skinned in Sub-Saharan Africa. It's not degree of individualism that's the major difference, it's ubiquitousness.

You're right in that I have no studies to back up that claim, so I'm resorting to the same justification you are: personal impressions. Specifically, the impressions that gaming is still looked upon as a bit of a childish medium by Japanese social culture at large (except adult games, which the culture at large prefers to ignore), much like anime, and thus otaku are far from the most conformist people around.

And actually, Japan is a parliamentary/constitutional monarchy (since there's still a royal family). Shows how much you know about Japan.

<url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy>Liberal democracy.

Liberal democracy (bourgeois democracy or constitutional democracy) is a common form of representative democracy. According to the principles of liberal democracy, the elections should be free and fair, and the political process should be competitive. Political pluralism is usually defined as the presence of multiple and distinct political parties.

A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a federal republic, as the United States, India or Germany, or a constitutional monarchy, such as the United Kingdom, Japan, or Spain. It may have a presidential system (United States), a parliamentary system (Westminster system, UK and Commonwealth countries), or a hybrid, semi-presidential system (France).

If you're gonna make snarky comments about my knowledge (especially on political science and Asian studies), at least make sure you're right first.

 

[Orbot_Vectorman]

Welp, while all you bitchy little girls argue upon who looks prittier, I'm gonna throw in my 10 cents and say this: Most Japanease games are some sort of RPG tittle, alot of them take some of the weastern culture and infuse it into some of their tittles. The other Japanease tittles are shooters of some kind, which revolve around giant robots. There is also a small percent of Japanease tittles that are based on sex or even fighthing. Now the thing here with most weastern games, is the fact that we make the best FPS tittles (Call of Duty fan myself)but we also make a diffrent kind of RPG, mainly with many endings, (Fable, and a wealth of other tittles). But we here in the west also have the most inovation when it comes down to games, because we were the first to combine RPG elements into an FPS, we have also made the top selling RTS in the east (Starcraft).

Any way, as far as misunderstanding Japanease games, no, I don't think that they are misunderstood, but they have found a formula that sells games, and they are sticking to that formula.

 

[Dango]

There not misunderstood, people who just aren't awesome enough to be satisfied with orginality don't like them

 

[Draithx]

Reading this thread people seem to blame japanese games for things that happen in western games as well.

You mean japanese games use the same archtypes over and over again? No shit, this is the same in 90% of western games and movies as well. Really, when you take games like Modern Warfare, Halo and even stuff like Dragon Age, how can you blame japanese games for using cliches and not western games? Modern Warfare being about a group of soldiers who fight terrorists, jeez this is new and original.

I don't think japanese games are really missunderstood though, people just tend to dislike everything that's from japan.

 

[dex-dex]

Is there really a lot to misunderstand?

Big Bouncy Boobs. lol...

well someone ignored boob physics

 

[Small Waves]

It's quite bothersome. Many reviewers give your run-of-the-mill JRPG bad ratings, then turn their backs in the opposite direction celebrating a paint-by-the-numbers FPS as if it was the birth of their first male child. They are judging the fundamentals that have been set in stone more than the games themselves. If you grew up with a PS1 and had strict parents who barred you from PC games, you are going to quickly outgrow JRPGs, while the FPS games will be something relatively fresh and exciting to you.

 

[MarsProbe]

It's quite bothersome. Many reviewers give your run-of-the-mill JRPG bad ratings, then turn their backs in the opposite direction celebrating a paint-by-the-numbers FPS as if it was the birth of their first male child. They are judging the fundamentals that have been set in stone more than the games themselves. If you grew up with a PS1 and had strict parents who barred you from PC games, you are going to quickly outgrow JRPGs, while the FPS games will be something relatively fresh and exciting to you.

What if instead of playing JRPGs, you instead played a lot if fighting games? Or racing games? Or 3D platformers? Would that mean you would have outgrown them as well... Seems quite a leap to conclude that someone who only played games on a PS1 would come to outgrow JRPGs. I've been playing FPS games since before the Playstation even existed, and haven't "outgrown" them yet....

 

[DrHoboPHD]

No not really.

I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, I'll admit, but I find it hard to believe that in Japan cliches are considered excellent gameplay/story.

Did you ever consider that maybe what we consider cliche aren't considered cliche in Japan? No, apparently, what with your cultural hegemonist attitude and most every other Escapist...

See now you're just being a weeaboo.

read my post before you try and take the moral high ground, or you will just find yourself falling down the stairs.

Did you not see me point out that the majority stories from Japan (whether they be in games movies or anime) all follow the same cliches and archetypes? Argue semantics if you want you can't change what a cliche is, or that what they continue to churn out is not full of them.

 

[azncutthroat]

No, but cultural differences are a factor in storytelling far more than gameplay.

You might have noticed that the mass of criticism about Final Fantasy XIII's extreme linearity, for instance, came initially from Japanese gamers.

Orly? [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.194597-BioWare-Final-Fantasy-XIII-is-Not-an-RPG#6208321]

Spoiler

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Japanese game magazine Famitsu apparently liked FF-XIII enough to give the game a nearly perfect score, and in Dengeki's case, suggested a 120 out of 100, as well as a Famitsu reader poll giving FF-XII the title of "best game ever." As for the "mass criticism about FF-XIII's extreme linearity"...

...most of the criticism seems to be coming from Western game reviewers. In fact, I don't see any Japanese criticism against FF-XII's linearity. Hmm... now isn't that strange?

"Typically" is very much a sweeping generalization, spiced with a weasel word. Especially since you also ignore that this tendency is not uncommon in Japan, either.

Main Entry: typ·i·cal

1 : constituting or having the nature of a type : symbolic
2 a : combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a group b : conforming to a type
synonyms see regular

Yup, that actually is a sweeping generalization. My bad.

Nevertheless, you'd be hard-pressed to not find evidence of a growing trend of "freedom of choice" in Western games, and even more so in trying to find such a trend in Japanese games.

Of course not. That's because being an individualist in the US or Europe is like being dark-skinned in Sub-Saharan Africa. It's not degree of individualism that's the major difference, it's ubiquitousness.

You're right in that I have no studies to back up that claim, so I'm resorting to the same justification you are: personal impressions. Specifically, the impressions that gaming is still looked upon as a bit of a childish medium by Japanese social culture at large (except adult games, which the culture at large prefers to ignore), much like anime, and thus otaku are far from the most conformist people around.

Okay, you REALLY have no idea what you're talking about. Unlike you, I don't have "personal impression," but second-hand accounts and historical background, and I can assure you that every one of your "impressions" is dead wrong. You won't believe that I've got a brother that's been to Japan, been classmates with a Japanese otaku who transferred schools from Japan to a school that I studied in, nor any other second-hand accounts... but wth, I like to prove people wrong:

A short tour of Akihabara (the electronics district in Tokyo) which shows most otaku to be of adult age. [http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/09/gallery-tokyo-akihabara/all/1]
Taro Aso, a former Prime Minister of Japan, even promotes himself as an otaku. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku#In_Japan]
Another Wired article that exemplifies how internalized video games are in Japanese society. [http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/09/dragon-quest-ix-2/#more-16425]

<url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy>Liberal democracy.

Liberal democracy (bourgeois democracy or constitutional democracy) is a common form of representative democracy. According to the principles of liberal democracy, the elections should be free and fair, and the political process should be competitive. Political pluralism is usually defined as the presence of multiple and distinct political parties.

A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a federal republic, as the United States, India or Germany, or a constitutional monarchy, such as the United Kingdom, Japan, or Spain. It may have a presidential system (United States), a parliamentary system (Westminster system, UK and Commonwealth countries), or a hybrid, semi-presidential system (France).

If you're gonna make snarky comments about my knowledge (especially on political science and Asian studies), at least make sure you're right first.

Since you're using wikipedia as a source...

Spoiler

and let's get a second opinion, shall we?

Spoiler

Nope, you're still wrong.

 

[azncutthroat]

No not really.

I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, I'll admit, but I find it hard to believe that in Japan cliches are considered excellent gameplay/story.

Did you ever consider that maybe what we consider cliche aren't considered cliche in Japan? No, apparently, what with your cultural hegemonist attitude and most every other Escapist...

See now you're just being a weeaboo.

read my post before you try and take the moral high ground, or you will just find yourself falling down the stairs.

Did you not see me point out that the majority stories from Japan (whether they be in games movies or anime) all follow the same cliches and archetypes? Argue semantics if you want you can't change what a cliche is, or that what they continue to churn out is not full of them.

Reading this thread people seem to blame japanese games for things that happen in western games as well.

You mean japanese games use the same archtypes over and over again? No shit, this is the same in 90% of western games and movies as well. Really, when you take games like Modern Warfare, Halo and even stuff like Dragon Age, how can you blame japanese games for using cliches and not western games? Modern Warfare being about a group of soldiers who fight terrorists, jeez this is new and original.

I don't think japanese games are really missunderstood though, people just tend to dislike everything that's from japan.

^Basically this.^

I wonder why you pointed out the flaws of one culture while ignoring the ones in your own. Hypocrisy much? Or is possibly some veiled sentiment against Japan?

 

[NeutralDrow]

No, but cultural differences are a factor in storytelling far more than gameplay.

You might have noticed that the mass of criticism about Final Fantasy XIII's extreme linearity, for instance, came initially from Japanese gamers.

Orly? [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.194597-BioWare-Final-Fantasy-XIII-is-Not-an-RPG#6208321]

Ya rly.

EDIT: I should note, in the interest of fairness, that the key word was "initially."

"Typically" is very much a sweeping generalization, spiced with a weasel word. Especially since you also ignore that this tendency is not uncommon in Japan, either.

Main Entry: typ·i·cal

1 : constituting or having the nature of a type : symbolic
2 a : combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a group b : conforming to a type
synonyms see regular

Yup, that actually is a sweeping generalization. My bad.

Nevertheless, you'd be hard-pressed to not find evidence of a growing trend of "freedom of choice" in Western games, and even more so in trying to find such a trend in Japanese games.

You'll find more sandbox games currently being made in the US and Europe, yes. Nature of the separate games industries, I suppose.

Of course not. That's because being an individualist in the US or Europe is like being dark-skinned in Sub-Saharan Africa. It's not degree of individualism that's the major difference, it's ubiquitousness.

You're right in that I have no studies to back up that claim, so I'm resorting to the same justification you are: personal impressions. Specifically, the impressions that gaming is still looked upon as a bit of a childish medium by Japanese social culture at large (except adult games, which the culture at large prefers to ignore), much like anime, and thus otaku are far from the most conformist people around.

Okay, you REALLY have no idea what you're talking about. Unlike you, I don't have "personal impression," but second-hand accounts and historical background, and I can assure you that every one of your "impressions" is dead wrong. You won't believe that I've got a brother that's been to Japan, been classmates with a Japanese otaku who transferred schools from Japan to a school that I studied in, nor any other second-hand accounts... but wth, I like to prove people wrong:

No, but I'll certainly believe that I've been to Japan myself. When I said "personal impressions," I was talking at least partly firsthand.

A short tour of Akihabara (the electronics district in Tokyo) which shows most otaku to be of adult age. [http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/09/gallery-tokyo-akihabara/all/1]
Taro Aso, a former Prime Minister of Japan, even promotes himself as an otaku. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku#In_Japan]
Another Wired article that exemplifies how internalized video games are in Japanese society. [http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/09/dragon-quest-ix-2/#more-16425]

It's worth noting that you'll find the exact same things in the US (including most gamers being adults and higher authorities being so). <url=http://www.cracked.com/article_18571_5-reasons-its-still-not-cool-to-admit-youre-gamer.html>Culturally, that doesn't matter all that much.

<url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy>Liberal democracy.

Liberal democracy (bourgeois democracy or constitutional democracy) is a common form of representative democracy. According to the principles of liberal democracy, the elections should be free and fair, and the political process should be competitive. Political pluralism is usually defined as the presence of multiple and distinct political parties.

A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a federal republic, as the United States, India or Germany, or a constitutional monarchy, such as the United Kingdom, Japan, or Spain. It may have a presidential system (United States), a parliamentary system (Westminster system, UK and Commonwealth countries), or a hybrid, semi-presidential system (France).

If you're gonna make snarky comments about my knowledge (especially on political science and Asian studies), at least make sure you're right first.

snip
Nope, you're still wrong.

...do, do you just not know how to read or something?

Liberal democracy (bourgeois democracy or constitutional democracy) is a common form of representative democracy. According to the principles of liberal democracy, the elections should be free and fair, and the political process should be competitive. Political pluralism is usually defined as the presence of multiple and distinct political parties.

A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a federal republic, as the United States, India or Germany, or a constitutional monarchy, such as the United Kingdom, Japan, or Spain. It may have a presidential system (United States), a parliamentary system (Westminster system, UK and Commonwealth countries), or a hybrid, semi-presidential system (France).

EDIT: Okay, that came off a little ruder than I'd wanted, but come on.