Poll: Jim Sterling Calls Out New Assassin's Creed (for racism/sexism?)

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Sep 10, 2008
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Vault101 said:
thats not my point....my point is you can't point to historical acuracy as an excuse to not have female assasins when you've had them leaping around dressed in full Ezio costumes....

and really if youre an assasin whats considered reasonable conduct for a woman of your time is....quite frankly not high on your list of priorites
No, I'm stating that I have very little knowledge of the time period beyond the causes and crises of the French Revolution and the logic of inserting of a female assassin could be argued but I'm not having any part of it.

again I'm not saying you could incorporate it in the story without having to explain it...but from what weve seen so far it really isn't stretching it THAT much to me

also assasins creed 3 had an ex black assasin.....(unless he never actually ran around stabbing people but for some reason I doubt it)
And I'm pointing out the implausibility of a black man running around as an assassin, if only due to the extremely low number of them in France.

Now the black assassin in AC3 actually makes sense, Thomas Jefferson alone apparently owned over one hundred during his life. That's a decent number in a single location compared to the 4000 to 5000 across the entirety of France.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Depicting sexism or racism in a historical setting is not sexism or racism. I think it would be perfectly logical that Assassins would be people of means, which in many contexts has meant white males. As far as the picture itself, by no means enough information there to say 4 white males straight off the bat (although males seems like a safe assumption).

Given their approach to sexism and racism in Black Flag, which has been essentially some interesting NPC dialogue and characters that push the envelope but are believable in the context without being clearly token or pushing an agenda, I think they'll do just fine in Unity.
 

seditary

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Zakarath said:
There was a quote from Ubisoft saying they wanted to include a female character, but it would've required too much more work (new clothing, animations, models, VA, etc.) which I suppose is fair enough.
I would consider that fair enough if Assassins Creed was a standard game, not a multi million seller with annual releases being worked on by something like 8-9 development teams.

Its just another mark showing Ubisoft's utter lack of giving a fuck.
 

softclocks

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I don't mind 4 white guys, maybe the story requires 4 white guys or some nonsense.

What I do mind, however, are 4 equally tall, identically build and nigh-sameface white guys.

Seriously, I get that throwing a woman into the mix is a bit too new age for the American coorporatiorinos, but they couldn't even add a short guy?
 

PedroSteckecilo

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They could also use Thomas-Alexandre Dumas as a character, he was a black revolutionary general and the father of Three Musketeers Author Alexandre Dumas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas-Alexandre_Dumas
 

rbstewart7263

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Lacey said:
The next time someone says that women or minorities are over-sensitive when it comes to talking about representation in video games, I'd like everyone to remember that a single tweet in which it was pointed out that four characters all look the same was enough to trigger a five page (and counting) thread including a poll demanding opinions on whether or not the criticism was justified, a thread title fretting over whether the tweet implied the game was racist or sexist, and an opening post which claims that it is "really out of line" to point out that four identical-looking characters look identical.

Yeah... remind me again who's being over-sensitive?
Pot meet kettle. :p

aint it just a gas though!
 

Alma Mare

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Savagezion said:


I am gonna jump in and be a second who says they don't look alike. However, I am not countering the lazy design argument. But they don't look alike. First off, a cloak hood is often usually used to obscure identity, especially so in Assassin's Creed. So for someone to say they all look alike could be because they are all have cloaked faces. However use the above image in conjunction with this image:


The axe wielder has a broader jawline that the two beside him, unless they have jawline beards casting an illusion. or his is. The man in green looks like he has a tall and slender face compared to the axe wielder. I can see this in both images. IN the top image look at the one giving a profile shot. His chin appears to poke out from the jaw more.However, this could all be concept art. Until we can get a 3D look at the models in the game, it could be hard to see it.

I think the axe guy should be beefier, but whatever. I don't even like Assassin's Creed.

EDIT: It is a shame not one of them is a woman though.
Goddamit, people. Is this what passes for physical differences these days?


This doesn't have anything to do about races, ethnicity or gender. It's just acknowledging the fact that most people don't actually resemble the living shit out of each other or have the same build.
 

QuicklyAcross

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Sure were a lot of hispanics, blacks and asians in the french revolution right?

"But its the assassins, not regular people from france, the community of assassins dont care about race or gender as long as you can do your job right"

True but then again just like in previous games theyve also generally hired people close to home.
It would have been awkward to see and hear a bunch of swedish people in the first assassins creed
 

Savagezion

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Alma Mare said:
Savagezion said:


I am gonna jump in and be a second who says they don't look alike. However, I am not countering the lazy design argument. But they don't look alike. First off, a cloak hood is often usually used to obscure identity, especially so in Assassin's Creed. So for someone to say they all look alike could be because they are all have cloaked faces. However use the above image in conjunction with this image:


The axe wielder has a broader jawline that the two beside him, unless they have jawline beards casting an illusion. or his is. The man in green looks like he has a tall and slender face compared to the axe wielder. I can see this in both images. IN the top image look at the one giving a profile shot. His chin appears to poke out from the jaw more.However, this could all be concept art. Until we can get a 3D look at the models in the game, it could be hard to see it.

I think the axe guy should be beefier, but whatever. I don't even like Assassin's Creed.

EDIT: It is a shame not one of them is a woman though.
Goddamit, people. Is this what passes for physical differences these days?


This doesn't have anything to do about races, ethnicity or gender. It's just acknowledging the fact that most people don't actually resemble the living shit out of each other or have the same build.
No arguement there. I astress again that I am not trying to counter the lazy design argument. I will gladly say Assassin's Creed is lazily designed. Perhaps just inefficient and/or hurried. The design of the game has always been why I don't care for it. I think it needs to try something new in a big way. Not multiplayer reskins. But with a yearly rotation, we're probably looking at BlOps and Ghosts levels of innovation in sequels. "Play it safe" (lol) and exploit it.

I can't stop thinking about Bloodborne...
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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QuicklyAcross said:
Sure were a lot of hispanics, blacks and asians in the french revolution right?
I trust you have the exact demographic data necessary to prove that point, yes?

True but then again just like in previous games theyve also generally hired people close to home.
It would have been awkward to see and hear a bunch of swedish people in the first assassins creed
It's kind of awkward seeing Connor in 3, considering the time period. If you can include him (as he was poortrayed in a narrative sense), you can include a black person in France. It doesn't matter if they're not native to the land. Hell, France even had black representatives to their contemporary national convention.

Further, if you can have a slave be an assassin (Liberation, Aveline's mentor), there is no excuse here.

Honestly, the excuses being made are a bigger issue than the lack of any diversity in the game.
 

mecegirl

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Further, if you can have a slave be an assassin (Liberation, Aveline's mentor), there is no excuse here.

Honestly, the excuses being made are a bigger issue than the lack of any diversity in the game.
Time period wise Aveline's story is like maybe only a few decades off of the time period where the new game begins. The French and Indian war ended in 1763 and Aveline's story(rather when she assassinates the governor and onwards) takes place a few years after that. The French Revolution started around 1789 and lasted for a good decade...So a resounding yes that if Aveline's mentor (and by extension Aveline herself) could be an assassin then why not another slave? Yes they were rare in Paris but not non existent. The same goes for biracial individuals with wealth like Aveline.
 

EternallyBored

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Zachary Amaranth said:
It's kind of awkward seeing Connor in 3, considering the time period. If you can include him (as he was poortrayed in a narrative sense), you can include a black person in France. It doesn't matter if they're not native to the land. Hell, France even had black representatives to their contemporary national convention.

Further, if you can have a slave be an assassin (Liberation, Aveline's mentor), there is no excuse here.

Honestly, the excuses being made are a bigger issue than the lack of any diversity in the game.

As has been mentioned by others, there is also Thomas Dumas, a half black Haitian who became a French General during the revolution, and whose son would eventually write both the Three Musketeers and the Count of Monte Cristo. Given Ubisoft's penchant for throwing historical figures at us by the handful, I wouldn't be surprised if this guy is actually a character in the game, or at least a cameo.

There was also, as mecegirl mentioned, Joseph Bologne, the "black Mozart" who was also the leader of France's first all black French Regiment, which means there were at least 3-5,000 black soldiers marching around France during the revolution, and that was just for an all volunteer regiment of black people that wanted to serve their country.

As far as other groups, as FalseProphet mentioned, one of the most high profile assassinations involved a woman stabbing one of the leaders of the French revolution, Jean Paul Marat, to death in his tub, which given Ubisoft's setup of how pervasive the whole Assassin and Templar thing is, she will probably end up being a secret assassin or Templar operative, considering that AC2 basically hints that every major assassination in world history was carried out by one of the two groups.

Historical accuracy isn't a terrible argument to use, but you actually have to know something about history if people are going to make this arguement, just assuming that anything that happened before the 20th century means that it must be completely homogenous both racially and with regards to gender, is going to backfire if you aren't careful.

Not that it really matters in this case, since this is AC we are talking about, where literally every assassin in world history was part of a conspiracy involving ancient aliens. That, and the whole world takes place inside a matrix-like video game anyway, to the point that in AC4 there are log entries that flatout admit that they edited in buildings and locations, that shouldn't be there historically in order to make the locations more visually compelling and interesting to explore, they also take a number of liberties with historical events, and put historical figures in places and situations that they obviously never were in.

So yeah, the historical argument kind of falls flat in a series that comes out and admits in-game that they are willing to throw historical accuracy to the curb in order to make the animus simulation more interesting.

More OT: no, I don't think Jim went too far, since he never actually called the game out for being racist or sexist (nice emotional manipulation in the title by the way), so I'm willing to give Jim the benefit of the doubt that he was more making a joke about the assassin's all looking very similar, rather than trying to claim the game is blatantly racist, or whatever you are trying to paint his statement as. Yes, Jim has talked about gender and racial imbalance in games in the past, but he has never given any indication that he thinks this is some blatantly racist or sexist issue that he demands be changed, he wants diversity, but he has never indicated that he thinks that developers are terrible people just because they aren't giving him what he wants.
 

Pink Gregory

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All I care about right now is that I'm seriously digging that Snidely Whiplash moustache on the johnny on the left.
 

BrainWalker

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The results of this poll should explain why Jim and people like him will continue to make comments like this.
 

Bonecrusher

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TheKasp said:
Bonecrusher said:
For me, historical accuracy is more important than politically correctness.
Then why the fuck are you here? We are talking Assassins Creed, a series as historical accurate as Aliens vs Cowboys.
OK, when you sweared to me, you became very right...
 

rbstewart7263

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in case anyone didnt see it on the first page they explained why they didnt include any special characters or women and to me at least it sounds legit.8000 plus animations, double the voice work double the digital assets etc. You should read the full piece linked here in this destructoid news article.


http://www.destructoid.com/assassin-s-creed-unity-won-t-have-female-co-op-avatars-and-here-s-why-276412.phtml
 

Something Amyss

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CloudAtlas said:
I find that hard to believe even if I adopt the most pessimist view of game customers I can imagine.
And yet, that appears to be marketing wisdom in this case. Actually, I think that marketing wisdom mostly comes down to "the stereotypes of gamers is true." That being the insecure, homophobic midle class white dude who can't bear the possibility of sharing his (and only his) toys.

And given some of the apologetics we see, I can't say I blame them for getting that impression.

RatherDull said:
Yeah, Altair had Desmond's face, voice and accent as part of a storytelling device to show how the Animus works and how Desmond is inexperienced with it.
I don't remember for sure, but don't they even talk about this in the first game? I could swear they did, but my memory could be wrong.

jpz719 said:
To be fair it was a black man in France, not a bad thing mind you, would stick out rather badly in a game about stealth.
Can you give me the numbers you're using on black people in France in the 1790s? As far as I know, there were slaves in the 1780s, and I doubt the blacks all just disappeared upon the abolition in the late 80s. Especially since it didn't dissolve overnight. Also, if a slave can be an Assassin in Liberation, I don't see why it would be any different here. I think Connor would be more conspicuous in the context of his respective game.

Not to mention we have had Assassin's with anachronistic flying machines. The idea of "stealth" and" being inconspicuous was absurd to begin with, what with their Klansmen outfits, but it went straight out the window there.