Poll: Jim sterling VS Extra credits

[Tuesday Night Fever]

I voted for Jim.

If you'd asked me this a while back, I would have given the opposite answer.

I used to follow EC every single week, always looking forward to each new episode. When Jim Sterling came along, I hated him. I don't know if it's because of the way he presented his arguments or what, but I just couldn't stand him. He annoyed the hell outta me.

Eventually I got bored one day, had absolutely nothing better to do, and watched all of Jim's episodes in a marathon. That's the day that it dawned on me that behind his stage persona, he actually had some really damn good points. Whenever he did a topic that EC had already touched upon, I noticed that his solutions tended to be far more realistic than those presented by EC.

That's when I started watching Jim's new episodes every week, and EC's new episodes whenever I found myself with some spare time. Now I only watch EC once in a great while.

Though I'm still not crazy about Jim's stage persona, I very much appreciate him being blunt and realistic when EC wouldn't be.

 

[Folji]

Why cannot you just simply go:
"I feel that Extra Credits is a bit preachy for my tastes, and most of their views differ from mine. I feel Jim being more close to me as a gamer and a person"

What is so hard about a simple statement? Why are people assholes now? Did I miss some kind of asspocalypse?

Yep, you sure did. It happened some time ago. Watch your back out there on the web; you won't find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

 

[Quicksilver_Phoenix]

Personally, I can't stand Jim's attitude. The way he talks and comes across is too obnoxious and arrogant for me to watch for any length of time.

I much prefer Extra Credits as they're friendlier, relatable and sound much more honest.

 

[Guardian of Nekops]

At least Jim isn't pretentious as all fuck.

How could you GET more egotistical and pretentious than Jim? It's his THING, for heaven's sake.

Frankly, I don't think Extra Credits is pretentious. They consider their opinions and present them intelligently, sure, but they aren't opposed to other points of view...

Besides, I strongly believe that every medium need folks who take it seriously, if that's what you're upset about. It's the difference between a good science fiction book and those steamy romance novels with naked people on the covers... except gaming is still new enough that some people don't understand it can be both those things yet.

 

[Eamar]

I watch and (generally) enjoy both every week, but I much prefer Jim. He's an acquired taste (couldn't stand the Jimquisition at first), but he's massively improved and has now got to the point where I'm seriously impressed at how fairly he approaches many issues, even when I don't end up agreeing with him. I also like his stuff on Destructoid- his reviews are fair and his news pieces often make me chuckle.

Extra Credits is fine and sometimes thought-provoking, but can definitely come across as a bit preachy or... well... dull sometimes.

ME3 hasn't changed my opinion of EC (they were far less offensive that certain others *cough* MovieBob *cough*), but Jim has gone up in my estimations after having the balls to not only consider the other side, but also to change his opinion after doing more research.

I don't see Jim's changing opinions on various issues as a bad thing at all. I respect people who are prepared to stand up and admit that they've changed their minds in light of new information. I don't always agree with him, but I still respect him.

 

[Sandytimeman]

Personally I love them both. I see PA coming from more of a Game is Art kind of deal. Where as Jim seems to have a Penn & Teller sort of vibe where he is just clearing the air of bullshit.

 

[hazabaza1]

At least Jim isn't pretentious as all fuck.

How could you GET more egotistical and pretentious than Jim? It's his THING, for heaven's sake.
.

Read my previous post.
Can't be arsed to repeat myself.

 

[hewhocommunes]

Extra Credits tends to talk down to their audience quite a lot. That said, I liked their solution to this problem. The first one, about the default mute. Taking away the ability to message other players seems pretty draconian.

Xbox live is a nasty, immature community, and I've abandoned most online gaming because of that. Microsoft really should start taking steps to clean it up.

ECs solution, which I think would ruin multiplayer is to factor in A mute average. What if you are having A bad day and you trash talk the opisition? according to them you should be permenantly ostrisised, it is a dangerous idea.

Isn't trash talk different than hate speech? It is for the people I know. If for you it isn't then maybe its time to remember the tired old truism: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

I have to point out that in my opinion if your bad day includes spewing hate speech (which was the point of that episode), then yes I would support ostracizing you. If you don't have the self control to avoid it for that "single" bad day, then it sounds to me like there is more of an underlying issue there.

Also a single bad day wouldn't have the effect that you are implying using a mute average, unless on that "bad day" you were so horrible that the single day had so many mutes as to tip the average.

Thats how averages work.

 

[JesterRaiin]

Jim sterling VS Extra credits
Who should the industry pay attention to?

No right answer ;p

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Why cannot you just simply go:
"I feel that Extra Credits is a bit preachy for my tastes, and most of their views differ from mine. I feel Jim being more close to me as a gamer and a person"

What is so hard about a simple statement? Why are people assholes now? Did I miss some kind of asspocalypse?

Yep, you sure did. It happened some time ago. Watch your back out there on the web; you won't find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

Short of a thaiwanese whore house... those places rank pretty high on the scum and villany charts.

At least Jim isn't pretentious as all fuck.

I guess you missed the "thank the world for me" part.

Yeah, yeah, its a joke line, but it state perfectly what the Sterling character is about. He is pretentious, he is hostile, confronting and demagogue. Its not a surprise many people consider him a gamer first, because he is closer to what some consider offensive behavior in XBLA, but with a bigger audience. He may have some good points, but I have never heard him make a statement without addressing it as an attack to someone.

The extra credit crew can be condescending, but they are not pretentious (at least, no more than Sterling). And it is refreshing to see someone being a intelligent gamer and not being cynical about it. To find someone that actually has hope for the medium and don't see it as a constant "its them versus us" is so rare I am getting tired of Sterling and characters like him.

The reason why I think people hate them so much now is because they don't side with consumers by default, but tend to treat the other side with some fairness (be it designers, corporations, producers, etc). For the audience, the idea of someone saying "you know, I don't think ME 3 ending was that bad" or "maybe call of duty would benefit with a paid service" is betrayal worst than personally kicking their balls.

When jim says thank god for me. He is joking. When he says that he thinks space invaders is a feminist propaganda game. He is joking

When Extra Credit say that western developers develop FPS's because of the deep historical significance of the gun and its meaning as a liberation tool. They expect us to take this shit seriously. Hence they are pretentious. Maybe western developers produce shooters because they are...popular and profitable?

Virgilio armandio is a parody of EC and their ilk. That is the difference

Maybe you should rewatch that EC again. When they say WESTERN DEVELOPERS they mean AMERICAN DEVELOPERS. Just to clarify, as the rest of this post relies on this distinction.

Ever here the phrase "the gun that won the west"? Thats a term of endearment used in reference to Winchester Rifles, a weapon which was pivotal in conquering the fringes of America and achieving American independance. A huge amount of american history pivots around guns. That's not a bad thing per say, because it was with guns that America gained independence from British rule. It was also one of the most important tools the first colonists used to venture into the wilds of pre-US America. Heck, it's written into their Constitution.

Personally, Guns are one of very few things that Americans can truly call their own in terms of cultural importance (an one of the least damaging, funnily enough). Most others are culturual crossovers and mergers from all the powers that once contested for control of America. Guns are more then a weapon in american history, they are an Icon and a Symbol. They stand for things and have meaning beyond their usage. Much like, though distinctly different from, Japans historical importance of the Samurai and their Katanas.

America has an incredibly strong affinity with the gun. It is well beyond significant, it is a recognisable trait. When people think of america, they think of guns (and other things, but that's another discussion). This idea is popularised by American film as well, another medium heavily influenced by americas history.

As for FPSs. America is the birth place of the FPS. How appropriate right? The country with the strongest bond to the gun, make a genre based around it.

It doesn't require much observation to associate FPSs with America and their use of the gun. It certainly doesn't take a genius to see there is importance in the gun for American culture. I couldn't prove it as a point if I wanted to, but it makes for a good hypothesis. EC did far more research on it then I did.

 

[GlenTheFox]

Jim's got a great insight into the gaming industry. The whole persona he puts on for his reviews does seem a bit strong at times, moreso in the earlier videos, but the ideas he gets across are even stronger. Plus he's mellowed out a lot in his latest videos. Gotta go with Jim on this all the way. Plus I had a -real- hard time listening to that voice from Extra Credits...

 

[Happy_Mutant]

I never got the "Extra Credits is pretentious" argument. They make cartoons of themselves and regularly feature demotivaters and lolcatz. What exactly is pretentious about that? Sure, they don't make fart jokes and take the piss out of themselves as much as others do, but there IS a difference between "sincerity" and "pretension."

For the record, I tend to agree with Jim on this issue, but I also think that EC has some good points. I also fail to see how this is killing "Free Speech."

 

[Tallim]

Jim Sterling has just about everything nailed down. I know a lot of people hate the guy but I very rarely disagree with him. For all his joking around with his God complex and what not, hes probably the most sensible content producer on this site.

Extra Credits on the other hand? Fuck EC. Thats all I am saying.

As for immaturity on xbox live specifically, you can mute people. I never understand the problem with minor online harassment. Some guy hitting on you in Facebook? You have a block button. Some kid on xbox live calling you a ****** jew? Bring up the scoreboard, scroll down to his name and press X. Problem solved.

I like Jim, better than yahtzee actually

didt like EC? I liked them in that they were all sunshine and rainbows, a nice contrast to other certin stuff here

but then they went on that artistic integrity bullshit with ME3.....*snnrrk*

With you here. Jim hits the nail on the head more often than not. I like EC but only when they are actually talking about game design/production etc rather than "gaming culture".

 

[hewhocommunes]

My question in response to your statement is why do you think those games are so popular?

 

[loc978]

Both. They tackle issues from opposite perspectives. James is a designer, Jim is a consumer. As for the shitty people on XBL issue...

My gut tells me EC crowdsourced a couple of elegant solutions to a real problem, and Jim is telling people to stop wanting to change a service they pay a monthly fee for... but I have no desire to game online on consoles, so I'm not really qualified to judge. I've only heard these racist/sexist shits in youtube videos (and they pretty much make me think "if you were my kid, I'd punch you in the mouth and gladly let CPS take you away").

For ME3... well, I haven't played the game yet, but I was pretty outraged at ME2's various plot holes. I don't think it should be changed, I'm just disappointed in the writers. I personally think retake Mass Effect was too late. Like they finally realized that shambling zombie isn't their mommy anymore.

 

[DoPo]

My question in response to your statement is why do you think those games are so popular?

Who are you referring to?

 

[Aprilgold]

EC came off as way too preachy to me and they always thought what they were saying was right.

At least Jim on the other hand does it in a more joking fashion and doesn't try to shove artistic stuff down my throat. He also did an entire episode about the Dynasty Warriors series which instantly gives him a lot of bonus points with me (despite never mentioning the music).

Just to point this out, everyone here thinks what they say is correct. Thats just how opinions work, and honestly, just because one is more vocal about how they think that their opinion is correct doesn't exactly warrent the hostility that they get regularly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't everyone like HATE Jim Sterling when his show first started. In fact, I distinctly remember multiple "God Jim Sterling sucks" threads about that time. What happened?

Either bribes went around or he actually decided to stop drawing dicks into his show, but he can still fuck off. Anyone who makes a video as a ad for a game instead of talking about a game is just a giant tool in my eyes. Extra Credits at least tries to make actual points on the industry but Jim is such a arrogant and full-of-himself prick that I don't actually care anymore.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, but his actual persona is hurting his show more then Extra Credits opinions were hurting them.

I get the feeling that some people are still butthurting over the EC/Escapist split. It happened, guys. Regardless of what side you're on, move on.

That said, there's a place for both. Both shows make good points and explore them pretty thoroughly. Jim seems to come at it from a consumer/gamer perspective, while EC seems to go for the designer angle. Each approach will appeal to different people: Jim's more palatable to a mass audience, while EC tends to go for a more cerebral approach because holy shit you guys, game design is complicated.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he tackles it from a consumer standpoint and / or gamer standpoint, doesn't that mean his personality is that of a gamer who is a full-of-themselves prick. And if thats how he perceives gamers then isn't it also a insult?

I hate EC. They treat me like a person and actually try to teach me things. They try to make sure that I understand something and help me to form my own conclusion while they offer their conclusion. I hate how they actually have experience within the industry and how they actually know the in's and out's and can look at both sides of the arguments objectively. It's so horrible how they do that.

I much prefer Jim. He presents his opinion as fact and slings curse words at me when I don't agree with him. I much prefer it when someone is condescending to me and thinks I'm stupid if I don't come to the same conclusion as he does. It's so much better that way. Screw EC and their multiple disclaimers saying that these are their opinions and that what they present might not be the best solution, but just a solution. I'd much prefer to be looked down on for having my own opinion. Jim does this. EC actually tries to help me understand and doesn't care that I have my own opinion on things. DOWN WITH EC! JIM IS ON ESCAPIST THEREFORE HE IS BEST!

... I love you. Honestly, Extra Credits preachiness is only there to help you come to your own conclusion, not to come to their conclusion. A persona, even if intent is to be a dick, is a dick. Jim doesn't want you to think of your own conclusion, just listen to his own. Extra Credits wants you to understand that there is many ways around a issue, and this is just one of probably countless other solutions, and I amend them for actually making fucking episodes and new content instead of making a god damn episode dedicated as a commercial and one dedicated to 20 seconds of darkness.

 

[Flavio Kuperman]

The main difference is that EC put thought into their episodes and Jim just rants about his own opinion. It doesn't surprise me that most people seem to prefer the latter, because it tends to require less thinking, but EC seems to be the only animated source of well-thought arguments about the gaming industry that I can find. All these people who call EC pretentious (most likely not knowing what the word means) and that insult those who like EC (for no real reason) are really starting to piss me off.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Extra Credits on the other hand? Fuck EC. Thats all I am saying.

At least Jim isn't pretentious as all fuck.

The guys at EC are so far up their own asses it's unbelievable. Their "gaming is the wave of the future!" attitude grates on my nerves.

Did I miss the part where EC decided to start stealing people's lunch money? There are definitely reasons to dislike Extra Credits, but does it warrant such hostility?

While it didn't make me hate them, the video where they compared intros to Skyrim and one of the Call of Duty games was full of misleading information.

Spoiler: a couple quotes from the comments section

Normally you guys take a very balanced and reasonable approach to things. But, in this video you took a very biased and unfair approach to your juxtiposition. You didn't compare the first fifteen/ten/five minutes (Or two and a half, as you ended up doing) of Skyrim with the first five minutes of Modern Warfare. If you had actually compared the first five minutes of each game properly, I think this would have gone very differently. I'm sure if I jumped ahead in Skyrim to the moment after you stopped, and compared the Dragon Attack scene in the intro to the first five minutes of tutorial in Modern Warfare, the slant would be in Skyrim's favor.

Firstly, as others have mentioned, that was not what CoD4 started you with, there is game play before you reach that point. So, it was a bad comparison to begin with if you're talking about the first ten minutes. It was also slanted to say that the style of intro in Skyrim was lifted from CoD4 as this style of intro has been around for much longer than CoD4 and has been in many games. Further more, as others have also pointed out, different styles of introductions are going to be more appropriate for different games. To top it off. you only covered the first two minutes and thirty seconds of the Skyrim intro, which is unfair, to say the least if you're here to talk about the first ten minutes

As a person who has never played Call of Duty, I assumed the arguments were presented fairly when they weren't.

I also believe it's in poor taste to say that Skyrim lift a scene from Call of Duty when you have a history with the CoD franchise. It makes the video sound less like "this scene was partially inspired by this other game" and more like "They just took ideas from me and/or my former coworkers". It may be an unfair statement but it occurs naturally when you find out the you were mislead in the video.

I still don't hate them, I just don't trust them(well just James I guess, he does the writing on his own right?) as much anymore.

EDIT:

Jim is a smart man, his persona is such a full-of-himself-dick that I can't watch it. If Jim dropped the persona as a whole and actually did something other then insight a bunch of "THANK GWD OR JIM!" then I'd be a bit more happy towards the man. I don't get how no one calls Jim pretentious at all, I honestly don't get it. Yet Extra Credits who acted more like journalists are called pretentious for simply doing things in a less opinionated way.

I hear his written articles are well done and (mostly) without the ego. I don't go to destructoid very often and the quality of his articles is second hand information, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Stilkon]

Quite a few points have been raised here, and my posts always seem to end up scattershot, so this isn't going to be very eloquent or organized:

1). Regarding their latest episode, I think that some of their proposed solutions were more effective than others. Automuting the person would work well, because not only would it keep people from potentially hearing any vitriolic language, but it would also serve as a warning to others. I don't agree with the accusation that this violates free speech: the player has every right to speak their mind, but they don't have the right to have people listen to them.
I don't like their proposal that gamers earn the right to speak, as a higher gamerscore does not necessarily mean that the player is more respectful of others.

2). I think the word "pretentious" is getting thrown around too much here in a similar manner that the word "entitled" was during the Mass Effect 3 debate. I honestly don't understand how Extra Credits can be considered pretentious. People have briefly mentioned them "talking down" to the audience, but I don't see it. If you don't agree with Extra Credits, fine, but that doesn't make them pretentious. They are, ultimately, a show formed by opinion. I haven't seen any real explanation on why people think they are (besides a point about the Call of Juarez episode which, while a legitimate complaint, I don't think they were actually insinuating that everyone who plays it is a racist).

3). Jim performs satire. As such, it's harder (at least for me) to tell when he's making an actual point or when he's trying to be funny. He's done episodes that are completely humorous (one of the earlier ones regarding sexism in games), ones that are completely serious (the one where he talks about SOPA), but most are a mixture. He might be undermining himself in that aspect.