Poll: Justice?

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ThrobbingEgo

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Riding on Thermals said:
No, "cruel and unusual punishment" is usually akin to the "punishment fitting the crime" in this case, the fine is well beyond the actual damage caused by this woman's actions. How is this a fitting punishment?

As a murderer, being put in jail is an absolutely fitting punishment. Being beaten with a sock full of nickles every day is not. But honestly, if you willfully and intentionally kill another person you deserve the death penalty. That's the most fitting punishment and people argue that even that is cruel
You know, she's not paying money to the government, she's paying money to the prosecutor. It's not Retributive justice (punishment) it's Restorative justice (giving people back what's stolen, plus emotional damages, additional losses, etc). It wouldn't be considered punishment at all. Just an obscenely large claim.

And that's not what cruel and unusual punishment even means.
Cruel and unusual punishment is a statement implying that governments shall not inflict such treatment for crimes, regardless of their degree of severity. It was founded in the English Bill of Rights, which was signed in 1689 by King William III and Queen Mary II who were then the joint rulers of England, Scotland, and Ireland following the 'Glorious Revolution' of 1688.
It's a real, serious term. You can't just throw it around whenever you think something's simply unfair.
 

Eskay

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The final sum awarded is ludicrous, but she could have setlled for $3-5000, the judgement is probably taking into account that she wasted a huge amount of peoples time (trials aren't cheap you know, and she had 2).

Still it's completely over the top.
 

Riding on Thermals

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ThrobbingEgo said:
Riding on Thermals said:
No, "cruel and unusual punishment" is usually akin to the "punishment fitting the crime" in this case, the fine is well beyond the actual damage caused by this woman's actions. How is this a fitting punishment?

As a murderer, being put in jail is an absolutely fitting punishment. Being beaten with a sock full of nickles every day is not. But honestly, if you willfully and intentionally kill another person you deserve the death penalty. That's the most fitting punishment and people argue that even that is cruel
You know, she's not paying money to the government, she's paying money to the prosecutor. It's not Retributive justice (punishment) it's Restorative justice (giving people back what's stolen, plus emotional damages, additional losses, etc). It wouldn't be considered punishment at all. Just an obscenely large claim.
Now you're just being argumentative

But wait, there's more!

(Source: Merriam-Webster)

Main Entry:
pun·ish·ment
Pronunciation:
\ˈpə-nish-mənt\
Function:
noun
Date:
15th century

1: the act of punishing
2 a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

hm.....
 

ThrobbingEgo

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Riding on Thermals said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
Riding on Thermals said:
No, "cruel and unusual punishment" is usually akin to the "punishment fitting the crime" in this case, the fine is well beyond the actual damage caused by this woman's actions. How is this a fitting punishment?

As a murderer, being put in jail is an absolutely fitting punishment. Being beaten with a sock full of nickles every day is not. But honestly, if you willfully and intentionally kill another person you deserve the death penalty. That's the most fitting punishment and people argue that even that is cruel
You know, she's not paying money to the government, she's paying money to the prosecutor. It's not Retributive justice (punishment) it's Restorative justice (giving people back what's stolen, plus emotional damages, additional losses, etc). It wouldn't be considered punishment at all. Just an obscenely large claim.
Now you're just being argumentative

But wait, there's more!

(Source: Merriam-Webster)

Main Entry:
pun·ish·ment
Pronunciation:
\ˈpə-nish-mənt\
Function:
noun
Date:
15th century

1: the act of punishing
2 a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

hm.....
ThrobbingEgo said:
And that's not what cruel and unusual punishment even means.
Cruel and unusual punishment is a statement implying that governments shall not inflict such treatment for crimes, regardless of their degree of severity. It was founded in the English Bill of Rights, which was signed in 1689 by King William III and Queen Mary II who were then the joint rulers of England, Scotland, and Ireland following the 'Glorious Revolution' of 1688.
It's a real, serious term. You can't just throw it around whenever you think something's simply unfair.
Also that last definition you listed is punishment, as in "taking punishment." Like what happens to your luggage when it gets tossed around by flight attendants.

And for the second definition, it's not a penalty, it's a claim.
 

Riding on Thermals

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ThrobbingEgo said:
Riding on Thermals said:
::snip snip::
Cruel and unusual punishment is a statement implying that governments shall not inflict such treatment for crimes, regardless of their degree of severity. It was founded in the English Bill of Rights, which was signed in 1689 by King William III and Queen Mary II who were then the joint rulers of England, Scotland, and Ireland following the 'Glorious Revolution' of 1688.
It's a real, serious term. You can't just throw it around whenever you think something's simply unfair.
If you continue reading the wikipedia article you just decided to take as fact you will find

"What these words mean in practice is the subject of much legal argument. In general the interpretation of each of the two words is in keeping with the basic legal maxim that the "punishment should fit the crime".

The term "cruel" is necessarily flexible according to the circumstances, since all punishments have the potential to be cruel to some greater or lesser degree."

Jesus, the first paragraph of Wikipedia is NOT A DEFINITIVE ANSWER.
 

ThrobbingEgo

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Riding on Thermals said:
Jesus, the first paragraph of Wikipedia is NOT A DEFINITIVE ANSWER.
Yeah, but, again, it's not a punishment. It's a claim. ;)

Also, read the rest of the article.

The term "cruel" is necessarily flexible according to the circumstances, since all punishments have the potential to be cruel to some greater or lesser degree.[citation needed] The "unusual" provision has proven easier to interpret: providing that persons will not be subjected to arbitrary, humorous, or capricious punishment outside the normal course of the law (for example, tarring and feathering). Another way to make the punishment usual is to simply use it more often.
 

lizards

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no proof SHE was the one who did it which is why only law educated people should be juries not some fucktards that watch fox news all day
 

ThrobbingEgo

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lizards said:
no proof SHE was the one who did it which is why only law educated people should be juries not some fucktards that watch fox news all day
Really?

The recording companies accused Thomas-Rasset of offering 1,700 songs on Kazaa as of February 2005, before the company became a legal music subscription service following a settlement with entertainment companies. For simplicity's sake the music industry tried to prove only 24 infringements.

Reynolds argued Thursday that the evidence clearly pointed to Thomas-Rasset as the person who made the songs available on Kazaa under the screen name "tereastarr." It's the same nickname she acknowledged having used for years for her e-mail and several other computer accounts, including her MySpace page.
Sure, it's not hard evidence, but do you think her ex-husband would retroactively frame her? Forget the court-of-law nonsense for a second, do you really think she didn't do it?
 

Sanaj

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New Troll said:
Being a mother is why she should have never commited the crime. She put herself above her children, and to me that is just sick. In my opinion, that's the worst of her crimes.
I don't like piracy, it has major impacts on the music industry, film industry, games industry etc..

However, I don't equate people who commit piracy to completely over the top cartoon villains.
New Troll in exactly want way does piracy directly involve the welfare of her children?
I mean this kind of case isn't common, the vast majority of pirates are never caught or at least are not taken to court.

I find the trend of blaming the parents for everything that happens or might happen to their children to be biased and it
sometimes gets twisted/spun in a manner that's simply unfair.

New Troll said:
Stevedave00 said:
that's very short sighted.
what do you really think?
Just because you do it else where they can't Smell it on you?
They can't follow you and see what you are doing?
I'm sorry she's not as dedicated as you are or as paranoid, but everyone has a right to some downtime.
I don't smoke as a father. What's there to get? I enjoy smoking clove cigarettes, but I never will as a father cause I don't want to ever jeapordize thier health or let them ever think it's okay.

And yes, everyone is entitled to some downtime, but they can do it legally without risk losing either thier children, or money that could have gone towards thier future. I still enjoy listening to music, playing video games, reading, and especially seeing movies, but I don't put any of it before my sons, or even thier mothers, or my fiance. They all come first.
The problem I have with the above form of reasoning...
You're oversimplifying the problems and the relationships between actions and penalties.

This isn't like smoking around children where we have tons of evidence supporting that it has severe negative impacts,
especially on babies and young children.
That has a direct impact. It has behind itself clear-cut, simple to learn reasons and consequences.

The amount of the fine is ridiculous, unfair and quite frankly cruel.
It being set at $80k per song, wow those must have been some amazing songs there...hmm?

I'm getting a bit tangential in the paragraph below, so I'll stick my rambling in a spoiler.
Sure piracy is stealing, but individually many people fail to grasp exactly how much impact they are having.
The guilt is usually less tangible and easier to shake off when the act is done online, usually anonymously.
Some people simply can't afford to pay the set amount for entertainment.
The piracy is especially obvious in places like Brazil, where normal prices for movies,
games or music are already much too high for the most people.
I understand why it's done there, sure they don't have as much money, but they still want to get some entertainment.
 

Riding on Thermals

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ThrobbingEgo said:
Riding on Thermals said:
Jesus, the first paragraph of Wikipedia is NOT A DEFINITIVE ANSWER.
Yeah, but, again, it's not a punishment. It's a claim. ;)

Also, read the rest of the article.

The term "cruel" is necessarily flexible according to the circumstances, since all punishments have the potential to be cruel to some greater or lesser degree.[citation needed] The "unusual" provision has proven easier to interpret: providing that persons will not be subjected to arbitrary, humorous, or capricious punishment outside the normal course of the law (for example, tarring and feathering). Another way to make the punishment usual is to simply use it more often.
The resolution of a claim is a penalty, which is a punishment

(back to Merriam Webster)


Main Entry:
pen·al·ty Listen to the pronunciation of penalty
Pronunciation:
\ˈpe-nəl-tē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural pen·al·ties
Etymology:
Middle English penalte, from Middle French penalité, from Medieval Latin poenalitas, from Latin poenalis
Date:
15th century

1: the suffering in person, rights, or property that is annexed by law or judicial decision to the commission of a crime or public offense
2: the suffering or the sum to be forfeited to which a person agrees to be subjected in case of nonfulfillment of stipulations

3 a: disadvantage, loss, or hardship due to some action b: a disadvantage (as loss of yardage, time, or possession of the ball or an addition to or subtraction from the score) imposed on a team or competitor for violation of the rules of a sport
4: points scored in bridge by the side that defeats the opposing contract ?usually used in plural

I read that article, actually. How do you think I called you on it so damn fast? Now show me the long legal tradition of these type of draconian fines and I will consider this "usual." Until then, go back to your bridge, troll.

And here ends my interest in this thread.
 

ThrobbingEgo

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Iori35 said:
Sure piracy is stealing, but individually many people fail to grasp exactly how much impact they are having.
The guilt is usually less tangible and easier to shake off when the act is done online, usually anonymously.
Some people simply can't afford to pay the set amount for entertainment.
The piracy is especially obvious in places like Brazil, where normal prices for movies,
games or music are already much too high for the most people.
I understand why it's done there, sure they don't have as much money, but they still want to get some entertainment.
It's not like there aren't people who make quality songs for free. Creative Commons licensed works, and such.
Riding on Thermals said:
And here ends my interest in this thread.
Outstanding.

That's what I get for arguing semantics on the internet.

Even if you weren't totally abstracting the words beyond recognition, that wouldn't fly in court.
 

ThrobbingEgo

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NoMoreSanity said:
The fuck? For only 24 songs, they charged her
$1.92 million dollars! That's it, where' my gun, going to the Pro-Copyright places.
The recording companies accused Thomas-Rasset of offering 1,700 songs on Kazaa as of February 2005, before the company became a legal music subscription service following a settlement with entertainment companies. For simplicity's sake the music industry tried to prove only 24 infringements.
 

lizards

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ThrobbingEgo said:
lizards said:
no proof SHE was the one who did it which is why only law educated people should be juries not some fucktards that watch fox news all day
Really?

The recording companies accused Thomas-Rasset of offering 1,700 songs on Kazaa as of February 2005, before the company became a legal music subscription service following a settlement with entertainment companies. For simplicity's sake the music industry tried to prove only 24 infringements.

Reynolds argued Thursday that the evidence clearly pointed to Thomas-Rasset as the person who made the songs available on Kazaa under the screen name "tereastarr." It's the same nickname she acknowledged having used for years for her e-mail and several other computer accounts, including her MySpace page.
Sure, it's not hard evidence, but do you think her ex-husband would retroactively frame her? Forget the court-of-law nonsense for a second, do you really think she didn't do it?
yes really they have that SOMEONE used her computer to do this but not her
 

ThrobbingEgo

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lizards said:
yes really they have that SOMEONE used her computer to do this but not her
Someone, who used her computer, who shared music with her username?

Do you really think someone set her up? Be realistic.
 

mcgooch

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Music is my favorite art form (along with gaming of course :) ). I find it sad to see it's artists constantly being cheated out of what they deserve. So yes I think she deserved what she got. I know CD's are too expensive but so are games and movies. Her punishment was harsh but you have to remember that just because something (downloading music) is done a lot it doesn't make it OK. In New Zealand High school students smoke a lot of pot "In the 1998 National Drugs Survey, 43 percent of males and 27 percent of females aged 18 to 24 years had used marijuana in the preceding 12 months. Most of those who stated that they had tried marijuana had been introduced to the drug at between 14 and 18 years of age." from, http://www.nzhis.govt.nz/moh.nsf/pagesns/130 I can assure you it has gone up since then but that is the most recent survey I could find. Dose the fact that it is common place make it OK?
 

Skeleon

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ThrobbingEgo said:
Do you really think someone set her up? Be realistic.
Not deliberately, but it might've been her kids or something.
Of course, she'd cover them considering kids aren't treated any less harshly in the US (sorry if this is an overgeneralization but we quite often hear of kids getting ridiculously high sentences like an adult might).
 

ThrobbingEgo

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Skeleon said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
Do you really think someone set her up? Be realistic.
Not deliberately, but it might've been her kids or something.
Of course, she'd cover them considering kids aren't treated any less harshly in the US (sorry if this is an overgeneralization but we quite often hear of kids getting ridiculously high sentences like an adult might).
Her kids, who decided to share music under her personal screen name?
 

Sanaj

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ThrobbingEgo said:
Iori35 said:
Sure piracy is stealing, but individually many people fail to grasp exactly how much impact they are having.
The guilt is usually less tangible and easier to shake off when the act is done online, usually anonymously.
Some people simply can't afford to pay the set amount for entertainment.
The piracy is especially obvious in places like Brazil, where normal prices for movies,
games or music are already much too high for the most people.
I understand why it's done there, sure they don't have as much money, but they still want to get some entertainment.
It's not like there aren't people who make quality songs for free. Creative Commons licensed works, and such.
True enough, there are some quality free songs available.
Free podcasts or radio shows streamed online are also a nice bonus.
Many movies and games are usually never legally free and are much less common to find.

In case other people reading this thread just read this post, not my longer one:
I don't like piracy at all, but I'm not prepared to send the pirates to the gallows.
 

ThrobbingEgo

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Iori35 said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
Iori35 said:
Sure piracy is stealing, but individually many people fail to grasp exactly how much impact they are having.
The guilt is usually less tangible and easier to shake off when the act is done online, usually anonymously.
Some people simply can't afford to pay the set amount for entertainment.
The piracy is especially obvious in places like Brazil, where normal prices for movies,
games or music are already much too high for the most people.
I understand why it's done there, sure they don't have as much money, but they still want to get some entertainment.
It's not like there aren't people who make quality songs for free. Creative Commons licensed works, and such.
True enough, there are some quality free songs available.
Free podcasts or radio shows streamed online are also a nice bonus.
Many movies and games are usually never legally free and are much less common to find.
Yeah, but there are movies and games which are made for free. Some of them are quite good. There are alternatives to just seizing someone's creative work.
 

SenseOfTumour

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I think he's trying to make the point that IP address does not guarantee a particular user.

Perhaps her lawyer should have tried making some defence.

Anyways, the facts that she had 1,700 tracks and they decided to press charge on 24 actually shows a lot of common sense on the RIAA's part.

The damages awarded by the jury are beyond fuckwittery however, why not just award $80 bazillion per song? It's not like it's going to get paid, whether it's $80,000 or 80 *madeup number here* dollars.

Still, she should have seen she was caught red handed, and just accepted the punishment, applying to pay the $5000 over time, and to be honest, having to pay $100 a month for 50 months is going to remind her every month not to do it again.

I'm going to repost an idea of mine from earlier in the month too, as I feel it's relevant.

---------------------------------

SO we all know piracy hurts the industry, and we're probably going to see fewer and fewer millionaires being made in popular music.

Here how I think, and hope the future will go.

As time goes on, people will come around to buying music online, leaving behind the 'top 20' selection in supermarkets and the constant flow of 'hits' compilations.

As this happens, of course piracy will not stop, but, here's the thing about piracy, the most popular things get pirated most.

To me this suggests there's a law of diminishing returns on success in the industry, and over time hopefully it'll stop being seen as a cash cow and a way to show up, be famous with a cute ass and a few catchy tunes and then disappear into obscurity with a million bucks.

so I suggest that pop will not die, but it will stop being so relevant, and as more and more music becomes easily available, the artists that want to create, and want to make music because they can, rather than for pure profit, may end up making a reasonable living out of selling their work, while no-one will rise to the top and take a huge percentage of the total market.

Wouldn't it be great if it ends up that 10,000 bands are doing 'quite well' and earning enough to commit to being artists, instead of 10 or 20 singers that earn enough to buy pink helicopters and gold plated Bentleys.

I say this because, yes, piracy is bad, but I believe it affects the huge bands far more than the little guys, and people who 'sometimes' pirate stuff, are less likely to pirate some little upcoming band than they would grab an old Metallica cd, knowing Metallica already have a few million each. After all, try to find a Jonas Brothers torrent, ok? now go try to find a Peeping Tom torrent, I'm sure you could find both, but the popular one will be easier to locate and much faster to get. I chose Peeping Tom as someone I knew and liked, who's not 'obscure' but not a top 20 kinda band.

I think this may be more likely as a British thing than worldwide as we already resent success, heh.

I'm sure Simon Cowell will find ways to market and prepackage rubbish to idiots but I feel as the cd market withers and fades over time it will become harder, as people get online and realise there's more than 20 bands in the world, and a lot of them are more interesting than Susan Boyle and Miley Cyrus. I rate the escapist population as smart and well informed, but I'm fairly convinced there's a good proportion of the world who think the stuff on Radio 1 and MTV is all the music there is.

Anyways, do you think music could end up with the bubble bursting and being just a place for artists to sell their work, with no more superstars bathing in money? or are we doomed to forever worship the idols created for us? ( I fully understand the people in the background generally cream off far more cash than the artists btw, one more reaons I hate Cowell.)