Poll: Kill/Death RATIO is worthless

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Treblaine

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The real stat that matters is Kill-to-death SUM! That is simply numer of kills minus number of deaths.

Think about it, someone who camps in the corner of the map and gets one kill and stays hiding there for the rest of the game has a kill ratio of 1:0

1 divided by zero... DIVIDE BY ZERO! He has an INFINITE K/d ratio but contributed a tiny proportion to the game's score. Any time you are dividing by zero you know you have to be doing something fundamentally wrong and even if you adjusted this such as always adding 1 to the death score before calculating you can have a system that inherently rewards camping.

But kill-death-sum far more effectively identifies the players who contribute the most, that is total kills minus the times you have died.

In a Team Deathmatch (and variants) you get points for killing the enemy but if you are reckless and allow yourself to get killed too often then you will contribute to the enemy team reaching score-cap first.

It functions much the same as K/D Ratio but K-D Sum is a closer representative of how your gameplay is contributing to your team having a HIGHER score than the opposing team. It rewards those who go the extra mile raking up kills actively hunting down and penning in the enemy rather than being too defensive and camping, also discourages rushers who go on suicide runs dying almost as often as they kill.



Online multiplayers that have Team Deathmatch should have a clear HUD indication of:

Credit to team

and

Debit to team

When there is a victory, the Creditors to team should be rewarded more points/hats/accolades than the Debtors and clear ranking of who contributed most to victory.

K/d ratio is just too unrepresentative, not to mention who is any good at long division anyway? Try 17 divided by 7 in your head, quickly, without paper or calc. Far easier just to know "hey, my playing in the game has resulted in a net score of 10 for my team"
 

Radeonx

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That doesn't really discourage camping because they can still go, for example, 10-0, making their scores just as equal to the guy who can go 17-7.

And it still keeps their team's deaths to a minimum.
Look at that.
 

Zannah

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K/d ratio is fine, they just shouldn't count unless you've spent at least a third of the match actually on the map, always looks stupid if you get the highest ratio by getting a few luckshots, after joining 9 Minutes into a ten minute game.
 

Treblaine

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Radeonx said:
That doesn't really discourage camping because they can still go, for example, 10-0, making their scores just as equal to the guy who can go 17-7.

And it still keeps their team's deaths to a minimum.
Look at that.
When I meant "hide for the rest of the game" I meant literally just hide and don't try to shoot anyone.

As in get a single kill and basically do NOTHING. So they won't get a 10/0 ratio, as they get one kill, see their K/d ratio is basically INFINITE and hides fooling themselves they've done some good.

OK, that doesn't happen. More likely they get 2 kills and are killed, then with a K/D ratio of 2.0 they think:

"woooow! I'm a leetzorr player, better hide for the rest of the game to preserve my K/d ratio"

And the thing is some committed team player could be showing so much skill, fighting tooth and nail to to toe with the enemy and only if he is both ridiculously good and ridiculously lucky can he maintain a 2.0 k/d ratio while also the top of the score board.
 

Treblaine

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Zannah said:
K/d ratio is fine, they just shouldn't count unless you've spent at least a third of the match actually on the map, always looks stupid if you get the highest ratio by getting a few luckshots, after joining 9 Minutes into a ten minute game.
With a K-D sum you could far more effectively control for that though a K-D shows much more objectively their contribution to the game than their inherent skill.

See IF there IS an empty slot and they arrive in the 9th minute and score a kill then they are a credit to the team. However if they spend the next 60 seconds repeatedly running across the same open area getting killed then they are a debit to the team.

I suppose one problem with this is it makes very obvious who are the "slackers" who are dragging your team down. Having someone who can't get kills is one thing, having someone who throws lives away ranking up the enemy score is far worse and could lead to abuse or unfair vote-kicking.

But I hope it would most useful to each individual player as they realise that they are having a bad run and adjust their tactics if not for themselves, then for their team.
 

GiantRaven

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I think the comparison between kills and deaths is fundamentally wrong.

Who is better, one who kills 60 people and dies 30 times, or one who kills 20 people and dies 5 times?
 

MetallicaRulez0

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I've always said K/D-Sum is the best. Kills are 1 point, Assists are half a point, and Deaths are -1 point. Add it up and find your score.

Of course it doesn't matter at all in objective games, but for TDM and FFA, it's the best numerical system to determine the best player.
 

Spencer Petersen

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Apr 3, 2010
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It should be Kills/Lives

You start each battle with 1 Life already on there, as you used your life to join the battle in the first place. Maybe supplement this with the winning team deducting one life at the end (because they get picked up) and the losing team gaining one extra (because they get left behind), to encourage completing objectives.
 

loc978

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These stats aren't worth obsessing over. People get lucky streaks, or they get "in the zone" for awhile and they score high. Sometimes the best players in these games spend most of a match assisting other players in making kills.
Obsession of this kind is one of the things that turned me off of online gaming.
 

Shadowkire

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Kill to death comparisons are flawed, I have had people in games claim their teams were bad because they(themselves) had achieved a lot more kills than deaths in a game but still lost. And they rarely change their minds when I point out it was Capture the Flag, and they weren't killing anything remotely near the flags.
 

Treblaine

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GiantRaven said:
I think the comparison between kills and deaths is fundamentally wrong.

Who is better, one who kills 60 people and dies 30 times, or one who kills 20 people and dies 5 times?
In a points based deathmatch type game; 60-30 player is "better" for the team at least.

60-30 scored a net 30 points (most games don't allocate assist points to overall score, only personal score).

The 20-5 player was still a huge credit to the team, a net 15 points but though they had a higher ratio it's quite clear they had less encounters and were less aggressive. Considering scenarios where two encounter and neither die are so rare, that means our 20-5 player only had 25 encounters, while 60-30 had 90 encounters! That shows they are getting out there, being aggressive and maintaining a high k/d ratio, pivotal to a victory.

Franchises like CoD are drowning, not JUST because there are now half a dozen imitators but the entire shooting mechanics of hip-fire/ADS and the public obsession of k/D ratio means games are infested with the twin plague of Rushers and Campers.

Campers who skulk waiting with a high DPS weapon sighted up, and rushers with lead-hoses.

The idea of tactically and strategically working towards a victory are impossible with the way the game is currently scored. It doesn't give enough emphasis to team contribution.
 

GiantRaven

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Treblaine said:
In a points based deathmatch type game; 60-30 player is "better" for the team at least.

60-30 scored a net 30 points (most games don't allocate assist points to overall score, only personal score).

The 20-5 player was still a huge credit to the team, a net 15 points but though they had a higher ratio it's quite clear they had less encounters and were less aggressive. Considering scenarios where two encounter and neither die are so rare, that means our 20-5 player only had 25 encounters, while 60-30 had 90 encounters! That shows they are getting out there, being aggressive and maintaining a high k/d ratio, pivotal to a victory.

Franchises like CoD are drowning, not JUST because there are now half a dozen imitators but the entire shooting mechanics of hip-fire/ADS and the public obsession of k/D ratio means games are infested with the twin plague of Rushers and Campers.

Campers who skulk waiting with a high DPS weapon sighted up, and rushers with lead-hoses.

The idea of tactically and strategically working towards a victory are impossible with the way the game is currently scored. It doesn't give enough emphasis to team contribution.
With a post this interesting, I can only stand corrected. Well played.
 

TheTim

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Jan 23, 2010
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i think K/D ratio is the best system for telling someones overall skill thats been done so far.
 

miketehmage

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Kill to death ratios have ruined online fps games for me. Take call of duty for example; on xbl there is a severe lack of teamwork. Everyone seems to only care about kills and killstreaks. I'm sorry but when kill to death ratios start being prioritised over working as a team to complete objectives, it doesn't appeal to me anymore. This is why I love tf2 as it only displays points on the scoreboard for other players, the only kills and deaths you can look at are your own, meaning teamwork is a big part of the game as earning points can be done as a team, killing however can't.
P.S. I apologise if I sound like a whiney *****.
 

Calcium

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Dec 30, 2010
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K:D spread is best for single games.
But when looking overall you need to consider both K:D spread and K:D ratio.
 

kebab4you

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For some game modes, yes.like; capture the flag, defend this et.c et.c, a new system is needed or at least implemented. Tired of having my team-mates running around just killing things instead off playing the mod it was meant to be ...
 

Continuity

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Personally I'm all about total kills, deaths regardless. Sure that doesn't give you much feel for a persons skill when you're looking at a stat, but in-game, kills are all that really matter, there is no penalty for dying after all.
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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I think you should look at both. The sum is nice cause it shows the effort someone put into the game. But ratio is just that, a ratio. its tells you (basically) the odds a person has to killing an oppoent before they are killed. Besides, its always nice to see ratios, cause people build competitive friends and teams around ratios.

I think of it like this. A person could walk up to me and say Hey, I average 11 kills and 5 deaths, netting a total of six points
Alright. So... I can look foward to you dying five times. thats great.

then I could have someone walk to me and say Hey, I have an average of 38.463 k/d (my current kill:death so thats the number after division) career. My average per match is a 5.4 (my current)
Alright, so I can look foward to this person being more likely to get the quick kill that last second death that will net me and my team the win. So I'm going to go with latter, because he has a better ratio to help me win the match.

And of course, if I have a person that camps, I'm going to look for 10-0. Thats a 100% ratio. I think my best camping friend has a 15-2 sum (7.500 ratio). 7.5 is rather good for a camping sniper. Do I begrudge him because he's higher int he sum? No, he has a different role then me. I expect him to. When I look at him and see that, I'll say of course, he's either a sniper/camper or god. And he puts in his profile (his major one at least) that he is a camper.

So I wouldnt say its worthless. Its good for team building and stat crunching. I dont know, a statistics or actual science major could world it better then me I'm sure.

EDIT: you need an I use both. cause that "I use another system" just doesnt cover my asnwer.
 

enzilewulf

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Jun 19, 2009
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I don't care about stats at all to be honest. I just play the game for fun and to exploit it.
 

banthesun

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One thing to note, K:D sum means that players have to play aggressively. Sure that's fine if it's a deathmatch type game, but in capture the flag etcetera, you need a few players playing defensively. Ideally, there'd be a system that rewards you on your tactical presence, but designing such a system that couldn't be exploited would be exceedingly difficult