Poll: Lack of basic mathmatical skills

[purplecactus]

Honestly... my math sucks (dyscalculia, woo!). Luckily for me I don't need it all that much, a little bit of navigational math is required on the map-reading front but that's about it. The only other time I try and use mathematical skills is when I'm working out how many people I can buy drinks off of a tenner...

 

[Musette]

Well, the last math class I took was Statistics (for the easy A), but the highest math class I took was Calculus 2, which I took for fun for some strange reason.

I was always good at math, took no effort to do well in Calc 1 when I took it, and I had a lot of fun doing so since math starts to feel like logic puzzles to me at a certain point. Unfortunately, I couldn't really find the time I needed to sink my teeth into Calc 2, so the class instead felt like pulling teeth. I didn't do terribly (got a B), but I didn't feel like I understood the concepts with the same depth that I understood concepts from previous math classes.

I too get a bit frustrated seeing when people can't do basic math, even though I'm in a major that doesn't require a strong mathematical foundation (I study music, so being able to count and subdivide helps). I do a lot of mental math just to keep my wit sharp, so I don't feel like the poll would really convey how I feel about the topic. I think math is important to understand even if you don't need to use high mathematical concepts on a daily basis.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

That's interesting, is all LISP math written in prefix notation? I'm more familiar with postfix notation (oddly called reverse polish notation in some places). There's no need for parentheses: 2 4 ^ 3 * 1 + 5 -
Reading that over, I can see why we don't use it for most situations.

One of the fun things about prefix notation is actually that it can be easily solved with a stack-based approach. What's also cool about it is that it's easy to replace parts of the equation in run-time. That allows for some very cool stuff. Paulien Hogeweg, for example, used this feature of LISP to make co-evolving bits of code which attempted to solve an equation.

 

[kickassfrog]

Lately I have been noticing a disturbing trend on Facebook. People post simple math problems, and others will post the answer. The issue being that usually 60% or more of the people commenting get these problems wrong.

The order of Operations dictates what order you should follow when calculating a string of basic function math (I.E. 1+5*5-7/1*9). Many people on Facebook are doing the problem from left to right, and this is just not the correct way to do math. When you get a multiple function math problem you follow the Order of Operations to ensure you end up at an accurate number.

The Order of Operations is P.E.M.D.A.S.
Parenthesis
Exponents
Multiplication
Division
Addition
Subtraction

An easy way to remember the order is with the phrase Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally (I thought everyone was taught this in elementary school). By doing your math in this order you will ensure an accurate result, and we can all rest a bit easier knowing that our country will at least be able to balance their checkbooks.

To encourage discussion what is your highest level of Mathematical knowledge, and how do you use it in your job/hobby/every day life?

Actually I think you'll find it's Please Email My Dad A Shark.

Yeah, It's shockingly bad, but what can you do? Force people back to education? Or just hit them with a stick every time they get the wrong answer.
Actually, I'm down with the stick thing. I can start a week on monday. Also, you'll have to provide me with a stick, as well as their names and addresses.

 

[tensorproduct]

I stated in an earlier post that the commonly used order of operations is useful for a whole bunch of reasons. That doesn't make it special. It is still an arbitrary evaluation scheme. It leads to no more mathematical consistency or truth than prefix or postfix notation would, as was stated before. And both prefix and postfix notation find application in a wide range of engineering, science and computing.

You would be hard pressed to convince me that the ease with which we work with equations in PEMDAS/PEDMAS is anything but a cultural construct. If we had all grown up in a prefix world, we would have as much intuition for substituting and cancelling expressions in that scheme.

Abstract maths has almost nothing to do with order of evaluation. Axiomatic set theory or category theory are as abstract as you get, and syntax/notation in those fields looks nothing like every day arithmetic or algebra.

I'll give you that point on cultural construct, I was vaguely thinking that when I was writing my post. Lol, you made me look at my old Anaylsis book and under the basics axioms, yes PEDMAS rules of operations are defined in there, so it is arbitrary.

Also sorry I skipped some pages of the post and must of missed you post on the usefulness. So I just got the feeling your were brushing it off and implying it stupid, which was the motivation for most of the posts.

I would however stand by my science point and say that being able to break up equation in a series of terms would be much easier in a PEDMAS then L-to-R system, which lends its self to force balance equation and other similar modeling methods.

But I guess my final point would be its the system we work with and it works so get used to it. Its just that by calling it arbitrary I felt it undermines non-mathematics confidence in the subject that aren't familiar with the axioms.

I'm pretty sure that we're on the same page here. Sorry if my earlier post came off a little condescending.

I think that you're a little quick to dismiss prefix and postfix notation, once you get used to them they are very powerful and allow certain abstractions that infix doesn't do so well. This is mostly a computer science thing though.

Also, I do wonder if there is some small number of people who, when presented with PEDMAS, get hung up on its arbitrariness in a way that prevents them from progressing. I'm not saying that we should scrap all current notation just because they're having trouble, but if more people had an understanding of the abstract nature of these things then maybe we could move on faster by just admitting it's arbitrary and saying "that's okay".

 

[esperus]

I'm pretty sure that we're on the same page here. Sorry if my earlier post came off a little condescending.

I think that you're a little quick to dismiss prefix and postfix notation, once you get used to them they are very powerful and allow certain abstractions that infix doesn't do so well. This is mostly a computer science thing though.

Also, I do wonder if there is some small number of people who, when presented with PEDMAS, get hung up on its arbitrariness in a way that prevents them from progressing. I'm not saying that we should scrap all current notation just because they're having trouble, but if more people had an understanding of the abstract nature of these things then maybe we could move on faster by just admitting it's arbitrary and saying "that's okay".

Nah its cool, you do have a point with admitting the arbitrariness can help. But from some of my experiences teaching, some students just like to be confident it that there's a set concrete rules to follow. Not saying your point is wrong, since ever person different and come to understand things slightly different.

Lol yea I thing we're pretty much on the same page and I didn't mean to suggest that you want to scrape the whole thing. And yea given I'm an applied mathematician I hardly see the prefix and postfix notation and never hear of them. I actually thought there were proper terms for R-to-L and L-to-R operations but prolly should of wikied that. So I did brush them off to easily.

But anyways good argument, was fun and made me think more about what I do.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

I'm a Lit geek. Ask me about the societal constraints and motivations behind French Realism or get me to nerd on about Lovecraft all you want, but don't ask me to keep my grocery bills in order. Don't ask me to remember if I've paid my electrical bills or my cable or my water taxes.

Just don't. Don't ask me to compute any of these things, it's like my brain's just not wired for it. I even tend to end up with excess credit on my card because I over-pay my bills by accident. The only way I can handle these things is if I meticulously order everything using a paper agenda, my iPod's calendar, and Microsoft Outlook.

I'm about this close to hiring some sort of financial organizer person-thingy. I'm not in deep shit or anything, but anything that looks official with lots of numbers on it makes me run the other way, screaming and flailing the whole while.

 

[cookyt]

I will say that it's important for people to understand that there is some order. Sure, it's basically arbitrary, but as long as you're consistently arbitrary then it's meaningful. Though that discussion veers rapidly into philosophy of mathematics, and nobody wants that to happen.

Ah, consistently arbitrary rules. The best kind! And who says a little philosophy of mathematics is a bad thing? I love discussing why the rules are set up the way they are, and what happens when you decide to break them. Though, I suppose this thread isn't the best place for that.

All Lisp everything is written in prefix notation; which might not seem like a big deal, but it gives the language a huge amount of power. I'm aware of reverse polish, though I've never really worked in it. I can see how it would be very quick to punch into a calculator as soon as you get to thinking with a stack.

Yes, postfix is very convenient if you don't particularly want to think about what you're doing as you're doing it. If you're ever on a Linux/Unix box, try running the 'dc' command. It's a reverse polish calculator.

This is kind of a guess, but I think that the differences between our two notations represent the difference between functional and imperative programming.

Interesting conjecture. I've yet to try getting into functional languages, but I hear very odd things from my friends about them. Maybe if I ever pick up EMACS, I'll give LISP a shot.

Fuck, I am such a nerd.

You and me both

 

[cookyt]

I'm pretty sure that we're on the same page here. Sorry if my earlier post came off a little condescending.

I think that you're a little quick to dismiss prefix and postfix notation, once you get used to them they are very powerful and allow certain abstractions that infix doesn't do so well. This is mostly a computer science thing though.

Also, I do wonder if there is some small number of people who, when presented with PEDMAS, get hung up on its arbitrariness in a way that prevents them from progressing. I'm not saying that we should scrap all current notation just because they're having trouble, but if more people had an understanding of the abstract nature of these things then maybe we could move on faster by just admitting it's arbitrary and saying "that's okay".

Nah its cool, you do have a point with admitting the arbitrariness can help. But from some of my experiences teaching, some students just like to be confident it that there's a set concrete rules to follow. Not saying your point is wrong, since ever person different and come to understand things slightly different.

Lol yea I thing we're pretty much on the same page and I didn't mean to suggest that you want to scrape the whole thing. And yea given I'm an applied mathematician I hardly see the prefix and postfix notation and never hear of them. I actually thought there were proper terms for R-to-L and L-to-R operations but prolly should of wikied that. So I did brush them off to easily.

But anyways good argument, was fun and made me think more about what I do.

Glad you two are seeing eye to eye. Good arguments like these should always end in everyone benefiting.

Anyway, when I said arbitrary, I didn't mean to say that the current implementations are bad, but, rather, that there are multiple ways to do it, and getting hung up over not knowing one of them is a waste of time. Better yet, knowing about other common ways (like postfix and prefix), we often find that they present simple solutions to otherwise complex problems. For example, most parsers for imperative programming languages (like C and its ilk) convert the infix notation we use to write the program -- (a+b)*c -- into a postfix representation -- a b + c * -- because most hardware is better equipped to handle postfix.

As an aside, I once knew a girl from Germany who didn't understand infix notation until she was ~10yrs. This is because she would occasionally run the register at her father's shop, and the calculator was designed to work with postfix notation. She just didn't have a need for infix until much later in school, where she finally learned the customary way of representing mathematics.

 

[ThunderCavalier]

I'm just taking Calculus at school right now. imo, it's more needless busywork than anything...

But I'm not fucking stupid. Modern society, with all of the technological advancements we've made, is due to the achievements we've reached in Mathematics and Science. I'm sure that we don't need to know the complexities of Calculus Differentiations in order to drive a car, but you would be beyond ignorant if you want to dismiss all of the progress we've made in said fields.

... Even if they do torture me with all of the damn variables constantly.

 

[Hunter65416]

+,-,÷,x: All you really need some level of competence with.. Since I left school I have never once had to use any of that algebra,Pi-type stuff..

 

[Lord Beautiful]

Differential equations-level mathematical skill. Physics student. Numbers and I get along very, very well.

 

[lacktheknack]

I'm just taking Calculus at school right now. imo, it's more needless busywork than anything...

But I'm not fucking stupid. Modern society, with all of the technological advancements we've made, is due to the achievements we've reached in Mathematics and Science. I'm sure that we don't need to know the complexities of Calculus Differentiations in order to drive a car, but you would be beyond ignorant if you want to dismiss all of the progress we've made in said fields.

... Even if they do torture me with all of the damn variables constantly.

My line of work will have someone hand me some data and say "Find where the power increases this much."

And then I will draw a graph, and I will calculus the crap out of it.

It's actually kind of depressing when you find out math REALLY DOES have practical applications to your life.

 

[II2]

In some respects, I lack basic math skills, in the sense of fully mental calculations as well as a hazy recollection of some of the rudimentary aspects...

I hated math in school. I did not have any particular trouble understanding it, conceptually, but a huge hang up with applying it myself. I always asked, why can't we use calculators; that's why they exist??

Is it weird to be able to conceptualize what needs to be done to effectively implement fourier-transform based spectral analysis and resynthesis, but pull a blank mentally figuring out the percentage tip on what a pizza should be? Probably, but that's how it stands.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

Aside from it being super important because I'm an engineer, math was the second thing that I ever learned (the first being my native language). I actually enjoy doing math, more so equations that you can work out or programs you can create and not so much the theoretical stuff.

I am shock to this day on how alien and difficult it tends to be to everyone who does not enjoy math or problem solving in general.

 

[thom_cat_]

That's me.
This is a basic mathematical equation.
I did two maths in highschool and now I make video games and have to do some fairly complex programming with vectors and all that jazz, so it's pretty damn important to know the order of operations.

 

[Joccaren]

That's me.
This is a basic mathematical equation.
I did two maths in highschool and now I make video games and have to do some fairly complex programming with vectors and all that jazz, so it's pretty damn important to know the order of operations.

Eh, that's not depressing from what I've seen of it. The depressing ones are the ones where its even simpler than this [Lets take the 1+1+1+1*0 as an example], and 95% of answers in the poll provided are 0. Its worse when that's several hundred thousand people, or more. THAT is depressing.

 

[thom_cat_]

That's me.
This is a basic mathematical equation.
I did two maths in highschool and now I make video games and have to do some fairly complex programming with vectors and all that jazz, so it's pretty damn important to know the order of operations.

Eh, that's not depressing from what I've seen of it. The depressing ones are the ones where its even simpler than this [Lets take the 1+1+1+1*0 as an example], and 95% of answers in the poll provided are 0. Its worse when that's several hundred thousand people, or more. THAT is depressing.

They are both depressing. And yeah, I have seen the one you speak of.
It doesn't matter how simple it looks, if it was 1+1x0, or whatever, it's still sad.
It's just really sad. Especially when people try to justify it... "anything multiplied by zero is zero, don't you know that?"
Yeah you fucking moron, I do, and you're doing it wrong.
I mean they can even google this, wolfram alpha can put the answer in whatever form they want, if they can't get it into their head written as a number you can have a graphical representation, how about I put it on a number line, I could punch the answer out in your face it that made you feel better!

 

[darkraven28]

I just have to say one thing I Suck at math that all i have to say.

 

[Tallim]

I had to do advanced maths at Uni so I could do my Physics Masters. But I don't use the knowledge that often.

Edit: Funny thing, always used to joke in early maths classes that we'd never need this stuff in the real world. My first job in the labs had me plotting nominal distribution graphs ALL the time.