Poll: Lara and the Tomb raider controversy

[tzimize]

Of course it's sexist, female protagonist only?!
What the hell are you playing at here, you saying only women can be heroes or something??
I demand a gender option!

I see what you did there, and I have a truckload of approval for you.

*dumps*

OT: *sigh*

 

[Treblaine]

First of all, Shawshank Redemption and American History X were both in prison. Second of all, there are more female characters being raped than males in your list in the Horror and Rape-Revenge genres alone. Please.

No one is saying female characters must be excluded from being raped in media. There's more of that incredible projecting I've been seeing. What they're saying is that rape shouldn't be the go-to 'world-shatterer' for female characters, as the Tomb Raider developers very much explicated that it is.

I'm going to assume you oversimplify and compartmentalize these points on purpose and not for lack of understanding. No one is saying it's sexism to suggest men rape women, it's sexism to suggest that a player will want to "protect" a female character from rape and that that is how a male player must connect with a female character, especially because females aren't the only people who suffer from rape.

Note: Hatred of men is called misandry.

The majority of rapists admit to not having a sexual preference when it comes to rape, and most males who rape males can say without a doubt that they aren't gay. You don't seem to actually understand rape sociology or psychology. Also, those aren't "premises".

No one is saying anything of the sort. No one has suggested female characters should never be raped in media, or that males being raped in media is something to shrug off. I certainly am not. Have you even read the posts in this thread?

Your bit about the mercenaries being amoral doesn't lend anything to this discussion. We know the mercenaries are amoral.

Why would she choose to arm herself so often? I don't know, maybe it has something to do with delving deep into violent, developing countries looking for incredibly valuable treasures and artifacts while droves of seasoned pirates and henchmen are looking for them at the same time?

Also, you're flat-out wrong about the assertion that being raped is the most sensible reason for her to be heavily-armed. If you knew a single thing about rape survivor psychology you would know that if Lara were raped while exploring dangerous areas, she would never do it ever again. A rape victim almost never resigns to actively pursue the environment and activities that led to their rape, in this case treasure-hunting, and use guns or protection as a means of curbing the likelihood. Capitalize all the words you want, but professional psychoanalysis on all levels and personal testimony have echoed the truth that a rape survivor would not say "I'll still go do the things in places where I'm at risk for rape, I'll just bring a gun!" They would avoid it like a plague just about every time. She's "not the type of character"? That's the part you don't get. Being raped changes who a person is. And before this lame prequel, she resembled nothing that a rape survivor would be only a decade or two after their rape. To your point, she would at best begin to have someone by her side, a bodyguard of some sort, if she did continue to explore, and/or she would not go at it with nearly the same attitude that she clearly does in the Tomb Raider games. There would be paranoia, fear, as well as her ruthlessness and violence, but there would not be the cool, almost humored penchant for exploration and ruthlessness.

Yes, shawshank redemption and American history x depict prison rape, but the other examples did not. And what does it matter if it takes place in some sort of prison or not?

"rape shouldn't be the go-to 'world-shatterer' for female characters"

It isn't. This is the first time in almost 40 years of video games that a female protagonist of a MAINSTREAM video game has ever been even faced the unambiguous threat of rape. Is your objection to what was seen in the Tomb Raider trailer itself, or the producer's ham fisted and likely inaccurate explanation of the writer and director's intent?

"We know the mercenaries are amoral"

Yes, but what does that say about their character and what they are capable of doing? That was my point. The very - and disturbingly - common and severe threat of rape to women travelling alone is the most practical reason to be armed

"Why would she choose to arm herself so often? I don't know, maybe it has something to do with delving deep into violent, developing countries looking for incredibly valuable treasures and artifacts while droves of seasoned pirates and henchmen are looking for them at the same time?"
"A rape victim almost never resigns to actively pursue the environment and activities that led to their rape (in this case treasure-hunting) and use guns for protection"

I don't see how I can be "flat out wrong" that caution against rape is a good reason to be armed, it has to be one of the BEST reason to be armed. If you are wanted by local authorities, probably best to surrender. If you are being mugged, probably best to let them have your money rather than your life. Human eating animals are so rare and more practical to scare off of simply avoid. But rape is something you can't adequately and independently avoid without arms.

"she resembled nothing that a rape survivor would be only a decade or two after their rape... ...she would at best begin to have someone by her side, a bodyguard of some sort, if she did continue to explore, and/or she would not go at it with nearly the same attitude... ...there would not be the cool, almost humored penchant"

That's rather a stereotypical view of rape survivors, that one could never be as confident and independent as the Lara Croft introduced in 1996.

Now how would she need a bodyguard but not a gun? This comes across a lot like "woman needs a man" rather than just the objective need of measures to help prevent being assaulted again which would be a tool like a gun that doesn't judge or coddle, it's an extension to capability... without her having giving up on her dreams of being an explorer.

"If you knew a single thing about rape survivor psychology you would know that if Lara were raped while exploring dangerous areas, she would never do it ever again."

What makes you say that? I can't find a source that rape so consistently has that effect. While it certainly happens that rape survivors have to give up on their lives, its hardly a rule, while the suffering is very consistently severe, there is a variety of responses. And the trailer only suggest the threat of a rape that she manges to avoid.

If you say every time rape is depicted it must show the survivor completely incapacitated and unable to fulfill their dreams... What does that say compared to the depiction of male rape in film that has shown the men traumatised and embittered but THEY DON'T GIVE UP! I think it makes a good story to overcome such things.

I think it is actually just you opinion a woman being raped loses all ability to be independent or confident... Not actually a fact of what always happens after sexual assault. Because I know rape survivors who have not become unable to ever go where they were raped,that they have armed themselves, everyone reacts differently.

 

[BoogieManFL]

Why is it okay to show something like this in a movie or TV show, but not a game?

 

[KRAKENDIE]

Yes, shawshank redemption and American history x depict prison rape, but the other examples did not. And what does it matter if it takes place in some sort of prison or not?

"rape shouldn't be the go-to 'world-shatterer' for female characters"

It isn't. This is the first time in almost 40 years of video games that a female protagonist of a MAINSTREAM video game has ever been even faced the unambiguous threat of rape. Is your objection to what was seen in the Tomb Raider trailer itself, or the producer's ham fisted and likely inaccurate explanation of the writer and director's intent?

"We know the mercenaries are amoral"

Yes, but what does that say about their character and what they are capable of doing? That was my point. The very - and disturbingly - common and severe threat of rape to women travelling alone is the most practical reason to be armed

"Why would she choose to arm herself so often? I don't know, maybe it has something to do with delving deep into violent, developing countries looking for incredibly valuable treasures and artifacts while droves of seasoned pirates and henchmen are looking for them at the same time?"
"A rape victim almost never resigns to actively pursue the environment and activities that led to their rape (in this case treasure-hunting) and use guns for protection"

I don't see how I can be "flat out wrong" that caution against rape is a good reason to be armed, it has to be one of the BEST reason to be armed. If you are wanted by local authorities, probably best to surrender. If you are being mugged, probably best to let them have your money rather than your life. Human eating animals are so rare and more practical to scare off of simply avoid. But rape is something you can't adequately and independently avoid without arms.

"she resembled nothing that a rape survivor would be only a decade or two after their rape... ...she would at best begin to have someone by her side, a bodyguard of some sort, if she did continue to explore, and/or she would not go at it with nearly the same attitude... ...there would not be the cool, almost humored penchant"

That's rather a stereotypical view of rape survivors, that one could never be as confident and independent as the Lara Croft introduced in 1996.

Now how would she need a bodyguard but not a gun? This comes across a lot like "woman needs a man" rather than just the objective need of measures to help prevent being assaulted again which would be a tool like a gun that doesn't judge or coddle, it's an extension to capability... without her having giving up on her dreams of being an explorer.

"If you knew a single thing about rape survivor psychology you would know that if Lara were raped while exploring dangerous areas, she would never do it ever again."

What makes you say that? I can't find a source that rape so consistently has that effect. While it certainly happens that rape survivors have to give up on their lives, its hardly a rule, while the suffering is very consistently severe, there is a variety of responses. And the trailer only suggest the threat of a rape that she manges to avoid.

If you say every time rape is depicted it must show the survivor completely incapacitated and unable to fulfill their dreams... What does that say compared to the depiction of male rape in film that has shown the men traumatised and embittered but THEY DON'T GIVE UP! I think it makes a good story to overcome such things.

I think it is actually just you opinion a woman being raped loses all ability to be independent or confident... Not actually a fact of what always happens after sexual assault. Because I know rape survivors who have not become unable to ever go where they were raped,that they have armed themselves, everyone reacts differently.

The psychology of a viewer of prison rape is different from that of a victim of rape outside a prison. Prison is a secluded society in and of itself and male rape in prisons doesn't tend to phase people beyond the "Eugh" factor. My point is that you could only name a handful of male protagonists who have been raped, and only in movies. I can name three times as many examples of female protagonists starting the story with being raped in books, movies, comics, and television.

Are you just not reading what I say? Yes, it's the first time in a video game. But it's about the hundredth time in media in the last few years alone. It makes no sense to include movies and books in your consideration of rape in the media but then look at video games as a world all their own.

Why the mercenaries would attempt rape has nothing to do with the connotation of the writing and intent.

You are completely missing the point. My point isn't that Lara Croft wouldn't resign to be armed if she were raped while on one of her excursions, it's that a rape traumatizing enough to scar her and change her personality would lead to a psychosis constantly pushing her to never go on one of her excursions ever again. This is the most basic rape-survivor psychology at work here.

It's "stereotypical"? No, the data shows it. Rape survivors have an unbelievably exponentially higher chance of abusing drugs, becoming ineffective alcoholics, committing suicide, suffering from crippling depression, or completely shutting down after their rape. Maybe you should read a few books and talk to some rape survivors before coming up with uneducated surmisals about what a rape survivor would do. Yes, a rape survivor could be independent and confident. Would a rape survivor approach every dangerous situation with an air of complete aloofness and without any concern the way Lara Croft did? Hell no. And she almost certainly wouldn't be as devoid of expression or emotion as the earlier Lara Croft was.

I didn't say she wouldn't have a gun. I said she wouldn't think of a gun as a way to avoid getting raped or a way of curbing the likelihood of being raped.

Are you actually off-handedly accusing me of sexism? Who said the bodyguard would be a male?
Her dreams of exploring would forever be tainted by what happened to her. They don't call rape victims "survivors" for nothing. They die inside. Read the article "The R Word". Read any writings by a number of rape counselors.

It isn't a rule that rape survivors give up things after the rape, but it is a constant.

I didn't say "every time rape is depicted it must show the survivor completely incapacitated and unable to fulfill their dreams". I dare you to actually comprehend what I'm saying instead of projecting meaning onto fairly direct statements.

And you don't simply "overcome" rape or the trauma. Again, basic rape survivor psychology. To quote a rape survivor, "Rape is not a scar, it is a limp." It never leaves you, and that is why those depictions of how they 'DON'T GIVE UP!' are shallow.

It isn't my opinion, and I never said a women who is raped has to give up everything or will never function again. I said the data shows rape survivors are exponentially more at risk for collapses, behaviors, and escapism that greatly hinders their ability to go and do things related to what or where they experienced their rape.

"Everyone reacts differently". Usually when rape survivors go places or do things that led to their rape, it's because they have to, and it's because they're things they were once used to. Lara Croft being raped on her first excursion at a young age would not be the same.

Nevertheless, all of this is besides the point. The discussion the community is having is about much more than one symbol or one trailer. How this became an argument about you being the defender of a triumphant Lara Croft and me being the big bad guy who wants her to cry every night is beyond me.

Your first assertion was that most main characters who have been raped in media have been men outside of prison. That is not true. Here's a list that trumps yours.

* Coward of the County
* Death Wish
* Death Wish II
* ¡Dispara!
* Extremities
* Eye for an Eye
* Gone
* The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo
* A Gun in the House
* Hannie Caulder
* I Spit On Your Grave
* Kill Bill Volume 1
* The Last House On The Left
* Lipstick
* Ms. 45
* Savage Streets
* Shutter
* Straw Dogs
* Sudden Impact
* Teeth
* The Stranger
* Thriller - A Cruel Picture
* Ticked-Off Trannies with Knives
* Irréversible

And that's just in movies.

Another assertion was that it's actually misandry to display men as awful rapists, contradicting your own point that it's savage, violent men who are the rapists in media, not 'regular' men.

My point was never that rape should never be explored in media. It was that in the video game industry, it's being used as a fairly cheap and shallow writing point and never actually aligns with what a rape survivor goes through psychologically. There need sot be more nuance and thought about this; the Lara Croft situation is a very clear indication.

 

[KRAKENDIE]

[

But she isn't actually raped there is only the threat of rape. Personally I think this one scene has been thrown out of proportion with no help from their marketing.

This conversation is not longer about that trailer. People fail to realize that the trailer was just a point of departure for a discussion about the culture of video games and gamers.

Still makes your point invalid. You said Lara wouldn't arm herself and return to these kind of places if she were raped which I agree with but she wasn't.

I didn't say she wouldn't arm herself. I said her first thought wouldn't be to arm herself and delve right back into the fray, but to avoid going back at all costs, at least at first.

And it doesn't make my point invalid. Do you know what that means? My point was that it was "blowing the trailer out of proportion" because the discussion is no longer just about the trailer, if it ever was. In fact, it's the opposite of invalid. You said it's been blown out of proportion, and I said "That was the point". That isn't invalidation.

 

[Able Seacat]

[

But she isn't actually raped there is only the threat of rape. Personally I think this one scene has been thrown out of proportion with no help from their marketing.

This conversation is not longer about that trailer. People fail to realize that the trailer was just a point of departure for a discussion about the culture of video games and gamers.

Still makes your point invalid. You said Lara wouldn't arm herself and return to these kind of places if she were raped which I agree with but she wasn't.

I didn't say she wouldn't arm herself. I said her first thought wouldn't be to arm herself and delve right back into the fray, but to avoid going back at all costs, at least at first.

And it doesn't make my point invalid. Do you know what that means? My point was that it was "blowing the trailer out of proportion" because the discussion is no longer just about the trailer, if it ever was. In fact, it's the opposite of invalid. You said it's been blown out of proportion, and I said "That was the point". That isn't invalidation.

I wasn't saying your point directed at me was invalid, I was saying your bit about rape psychology and Lara is invalid because she isn't raped.

 

[KRAKENDIE]

[

But she isn't actually raped there is only the threat of rape. Personally I think this one scene has been thrown out of proportion with no help from their marketing.

This conversation is not longer about that trailer. People fail to realize that the trailer was just a point of departure for a discussion about the culture of video games and gamers.

Still makes your point invalid. You said Lara wouldn't arm herself and return to these kind of places if she were raped which I agree with but she wasn't.

I didn't say she wouldn't arm herself. I said her first thought wouldn't be to arm herself and delve right back into the fray, but to avoid going back at all costs, at least at first.

And it doesn't make my point invalid. Do you know what that means? My point was that it was "blowing the trailer out of proportion" because the discussion is no longer just about the trailer, if it ever was. In fact, it's the opposite of invalid. You said it's been blown out of proportion, and I said "That was the point". That isn't invalidation.

I wasn't saying your point directed at me was invalid, I was saying your bit about rape psychology and Lara is invalid because she isn't raped.

I think you mean "irrelevant". Even still, it was obvious we were speaking in hypotheticals, and in that vein it was valid.

 

[Treblaine]

The psychology of a viewer of prison rape is different from that of a victim of rape outside a prison. Prison is a secluded society in and of itself and male rape in prisons doesn't tend to phase people beyond the "Eugh" factor. My point is that you could only name a handful of male protagonists who have been raped, and only in movies. I can name three times as many examples of female protagonists starting the story with being raped in books, movies, comics, and television.

Are you just not reading what I say? Yes, it's the first time in a video game. But it's about the hundredth time in media in the last few years alone. It makes no sense to include movies and books in your consideration of rape in the media but then look at video games as a world all their own.

Why the mercenaries would attempt rape has nothing to do with the connotation of the writing and intent.

You are completely missing the point. My point isn't that Lara Croft wouldn't resign to be armed if she were raped while on one of her excursions, it's that a rape traumatizing enough to scar her and change her personality would lead to a psychosis constantly pushing her to never go on one of her excursions ever again. This is the most basic rape-survivor psychology at work here.

It's "stereotypical"? No, the data shows it. Rape survivors have an unbelievably exponentially higher chance of abusing drugs, becoming ineffective alcoholics, committing suicide, suffering from crippling depression, or completely shutting down after their rape. Maybe you should read a few books and talk to some rape survivors before coming up with uneducated surmisals about what a rape survivor would do. Yes, a rape survivor could be independent and confident. Would a rape survivor approach every dangerous situation with an air of complete aloofness and without any concern the way Lara Croft did? Hell no. And she almost certainly wouldn't be as devoid of expression or emotion as the earlier Lara Croft was.

I didn't say she wouldn't have a gun. I said she wouldn't think of a gun as a way to avoid getting raped or a way of curbing the likelihood of being raped.

Are you actually off-handedly accusing me of sexism? Who said the bodyguard would be a male?
Her dreams of exploring would forever be tainted by what happened to her. They don't call rape victims "survivors" for nothing. They die inside. Read the article "The R Word". Read any writings by a number of rape counselors.

It isn't a rule that rape survivors give up things after the rape, but it is a constant.

I didn't say "every time rape is depicted it must show the survivor completely incapacitated and unable to fulfill their dreams". I dare you to actually comprehend what I'm saying instead of projecting meaning onto fairly direct statements.

And you don't simply "overcome" rape or the trauma. Again, basic rape survivor psychology. To quote a rape survivor, "Rape is not a scar, it is a limp." It never leaves you, and that is why those depictions of how they 'DON'T GIVE UP!' are shallow.

It isn't my opinion, and I never said a women who is raped has to give up everything or will never function again. I said the data shows rape survivors are exponentially more at risk for collapses, behaviors, and escapism that greatly hinders their ability to go and do things related to what or where they experienced their rape.

"Everyone reacts differently". Usually when rape survivors go places or do things that led to their rape, it's because they have to, and it's because they're things they were once used to. Lara Croft being raped on her first excursion at a young age would not be the same.

Nevertheless, all of this is besides the point. The discussion the community is having is about much more than one symbol or one trailer. How this became an argument about you being the defender of a triumphant Lara Croft and me being the big bad guy who wants her to cry every night is beyond me.

Your first assertion was that most main characters who have been raped in media have been men outside of prison. That is not true. Here's a list that trumps yours.

* Coward of the County
* Death Wish
* Death Wish II
* ¡Dispara!
* Extremities
* Eye for an Eye
* Gone
* The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo
* A Gun in the House
* Hannie Caulder
* I Spit On Your Grave
* Kill Bill Volume 1
* The Last House On The Left
* Lipstick
* Ms. 45
* Savage Streets
* Shutter
* Straw Dogs
* Sudden Impact
* Teeth
* The Stranger
* Thriller - A Cruel Picture
* Ticked-Off Trannies with Knives
* Irréversible

And that's just in movies.

Another assertion was that it's actually misandry to display men as awful rapists, contradicting your own point that it's savage, violent men who are the rapists in media, not 'regular' men.

My point was never that rape should never be explored in media. It was that in the video game industry, it's being used as a fairly cheap and shallow writing point and never actually aligns with what a rape survivor goes through psychologically. There need sot be more nuance and thought about this; the Lara Croft situation is a very clear indication.

Look. My point of listing examples of male rape in film was to show that it's not just a female thing. It's quite spurious to have a "which gender got raped more" comparison, the point is it happens for both.

"It's "stereotypical"? No, the data shows it."

What data? Probability isn't enough, but that NO ONE can be high functioning after rape. And again, this trailer shows only an attempted rape, which is what you keep missing, the trailer only shows someone tried and apparently failed to rape her.

Remember, you don't write characters by pure probability. Protagonists in almost all stories are exceptional character. The average person in a hostage situation like Die Hard would just hide in a closet till the events solve themselves, but John McClane is not an average guy.

"It isn't a rule that rape survivors give up things after the rape, but it is a constant."

Ok, so it's possible. So what's the problem?

"I didn't say she wouldn't have a gun. I said she wouldn't think of a gun as a way to avoid getting raped or a way of curbing the likelihood of being raped."

OK, now explain how that makes any sense. Especially as in the trailer she is threatened with a gun and seem to be able to stop him by shooting him... with a gun. Loads of women are armed for such reasons.

"Lara Croft being raped on her first excursion at a young age would not be the same."

Attempted rape.

"Her dreams of exploring would forever be tainted by what happened to her."

An attempted rape? where she successfully fought off her attacker? But OK, lets go through considering that she was actually raped.

"They don't call rape victims "survivors" for nothing. They die inside."

That doesn't make sense.

"you being the defender of a triumphant Lara Croft and me being the big bad guy who wants her to cry every night is beyond me."

Well you are saying that her dreams would be "forever be tainted", never be completely aloof, probably give up treasure-hunting, that she would be paranoid and afraid, without any cool or humour (I went back to check your posts, you did say all this). You go on endlessly of increased risk of suicide, substance dependency and so on. Our heroes in all media go through all sorts of awful things and if there is any chance the SLIMMEST chance they can prevail and exceed every expectation then they will, that's what make good stories.

"it's being used as a fairly cheap and shallow writing point"

Well that's just your personal artistic opinion. Why is it cheaper or more shallow than all the other tropes used in the media?

 

[Azure Knight-Zeo]

If she ends up getting stronger as the game goes on, no. If she's constently getting abused, beaten, and depicted as "weak" through out the game untill the end credits, maybe.

When is she depicted as weak? She beats everyone in the trailers.

If you mean she isn't portrayed as a Mary Sue who can just magic her way out of shitty situations by her being so perfect. Then yea, she's no longer that.

Admitadly I haven't been paying much attention to the game, but from what I saw it usually depicts Laura falling into rapids, being chased in a dark cave, this sexual harassment stuff, ect. While I like that she isn't a Mary Sue, I do hope she get's out of this negative rut by the third act.

 

[KRAKENDIE]

Look. My point of listing examples of male rape in film was to show that it's not just a female thing. It's quite spurious to have a "which gender got raped more" comparison, the point is it happens for both.

"It's "stereotypical"? No, the data shows it."

What data? Probability isn't enough, but that NO ONE can be high functioning after rape. And again, this trailer shows only an attempted rape, which is what you keep missing, the trailer only shows someone tried and apparently failed to rape her.

Remember, you don't write characters by pure probability. Protagonists in almost all stories are exceptional character. The average person in a hostage situation like Die Hard would just hide in a closet till the events solve themselves, but John McClane is not an average guy.

"It isn't a rule that rape survivors give up things after the rape, but it is a constant."

Ok, so it's possible. So what's the problem?

"I didn't say she wouldn't have a gun. I said she wouldn't think of a gun as a way to avoid getting raped or a way of curbing the likelihood of being raped."

OK, now explain how that makes any sense. Especially as in the trailer she is threatened with a gun and seem to be able to stop him by shooting him... with a gun. Loads of women are armed for such reasons.

"Lara Croft being raped on her first excursion at a young age would not be the same."

Attempted rape.

"Her dreams of exploring would forever be tainted by what happened to her."

An attempted rape? where she successfully fought off her attacker? But OK, lets go through considering that she was actually raped.

"They don't call rape victims "survivors" for nothing. They die inside."

That doesn't make sense.

"you being the defender of a triumphant Lara Croft and me being the big bad guy who wants her to cry every night is beyond me."

Well you are saying that her dreams would be "forever be tainted", never be completely aloof, probably give up treasure-hunting, that she would be paranoid and afraid, without any cool or humour (I went back to check your posts, you did say all this). You go on endlessly of increased risk of suicide, substance dependency and so on. Our heroes in all media go through all sorts of awful things and if there is any chance the SLIMMEST chance they can prevail and exceed every expectation then they will, that's what make good stories.

"it's being used as a fairly cheap and shallow writing point"

Well that's just your personal artistic opinion. Why is it cheaper or more shallow than all the other tropes used in the media?

I never said it only happened to females.

I'm not talking about Lara Croft when I talk about rape statistics. Do I constantly have to repeat the fact that the discussion is about rape as a trope in all of media? The data shows that rape survivors tend to crumble psychologically after they survive their rape. Lara Croft has a much greater chance of never exploring on her own again and going into a depressed state than she does coming out a murderous sociopath.

And now you back to "well it was only attempted rape". You just used the hypothetical exacted rape as an argument for your point. I'm doing the same. We've been talking in the context of Lara's rapist being successful from the beginning. Otherwise, you wouldn't have felt the need to list all of those male characters who have been raped.

The point isn't that Lara Croft should be incapable of rising again because normal people wouldn't, but how it is executed, and all indications show it has been executed poorly. A hostage situation is nothing like a rape or even attempted rape.

The problem is that any writer who writers a character's rape into the molding of a character's persona and ignores the constant of emotion collapse and psychological torment is not writing it for the sake of enriched story or character association.

Her using a gun to stop a man from raping her in a survival situation is not proof that she would see a gun as the only way to avoid being raped if she were actually raped. You continue to bounce between staying in the vein of context of her hypothetical rape, putting her in the place of a rape survivor and suggesting what she would do if she were raped when it backs up your point that it isn't a poor writing decision, but then challenge my points that it is by saying "well it was attempted rape and she stopped the guy".

That wasn't well put. What I mean is that they just about die inside, and barely continue to go on. A lot of rape survivors don't. Many just flat-out kill themselves instead of going on living.

Her dreams would be tainted. She would be reminded of the incident every time she went to explore. I said she wouldn't be aloof about the dangerous of exploring or mercenaries/pirates. She would be paranoid. And you quote me out of context; I said "There would be paranoia, fear, as well as her ruthlessness and violence, but there would not be the cool, almost humored penchant for exploration and ruthlessness." She would not approach the danger with an almost amused disregard like she does in earlier games.

What makes good stories is up in the air and up to any one of us to decide, but what doesn't make good characters is using a trope older than the video game industry itself to achieve a shallow character 'growth' and depth that most notable critics and analysts agree don't reflect the complex humanity of a survivor or their trials.

 

[Treblaine]

I never said it only happened to females.

I'm not talking about Lara Croft when I talk about rape statistics. Do I constantly have to repeat the fact that the discussion is about rape as a trope in all of media? The data shows that rape survivors tend to crumble psychologically after they survive their rape. Lara Croft has a much greater chance of never exploring on her own again and going into a depressed state than she does coming out a murderous sociopath.

And now you back to "well it was only attempted rape". You just used the hypothetical exacted rape as an argument for your point. I'm doing the same. We've been talking in the context of Lara's rapist being successful from the beginning. Otherwise, you wouldn't have felt the need to list all of those male characters who have been raped.

The point isn't that Lara Croft should be incapable of rising again because normal people wouldn't, but how it is executed, and all indications show it has been executed poorly. A hostage situation is nothing like a rape or even attempted rape.

The problem is that any writer who writers a character's rape into the molding of a character's persona and ignores the constant of emotion collapse and psychological torment is not writing it for the sake of enriched story or character association.

Her using a gun to stop a man from raping her in a survival situation is not proof that she would see a gun as the only way to avoid being raped if she were actually raped. You continue to bounce between staying in the vein of context of her hypothetical rape, putting her in the place of a rape survivor and suggesting what she would do if she were raped when it backs up your point that it isn't a poor writing decision, but then challenge my points that it is by saying "well it was attempted rape and she stopped the guy".

That wasn't well put. What I mean is that they just about die inside, and barely continue to go on. A lot of rape survivors don't. Many just flat-out kill themselves instead of going on living.

Her dreams would be tainted. She would be reminded of the incident every time she went to explore. I said she wouldn't be aloof about the dangerous of exploring or mercenaries/pirates. She would be paranoid. And you quote me out of context; I said "There would be paranoia, fear, as well as her ruthlessness and violence, but there would not be the cool, almost humored penchant for exploration and ruthlessness." She would not approach the danger with an almost amused disregard like she does in earlier games.

What makes good stories is up in the air and up to any one of us to decide, but what doesn't make good characters is using a trope older than the video game industry itself to achieve a shallow character 'growth' and depth that most notable critics and analysts agree don't reflect the complex humanity of a survivor or their trials.

If you are going to talk about hypotheticals of IF Lara Croft was actually forcibly raped in an origins story, then you can't disapprove of how she is depicted in the a series where she is not a rape survivor but at the most successfully fought off and attacker.

So if you talk in hypothetical assault, then you can only address how her character hypothetically would be, not incongruity with her canonical character.

"The point isn't that Lara Croft should be incapable of rising again because normal people wouldn't, but how it is executed, and all indications show it has been executed poorly"

That the problem right here, you are adding a rape into the story then saying it is incongruous with the tomb raider canon where rapeisn't in Lara's back story. If you change things, they'll be different, that's inescapable.

"Her using a gun to stop a man from raping her in a survival situation is not proof that she would see a gun as the only way to avoid being raped if she were actually raped"

Don't you realise, she AVOIDED being raped in this context because she shot him, she was NOT actually raped. Don't you see the link in logic between using a gun to avoid a horrible fate and wanting to be armed in the future? I'm not saying its proof, but it is a logical explanation. But I stil don't see why she wouldn't arm herself to prevent rapes, rather than sacrifice her independence with a bodyguard.

"Many just flat-out kill themselves instead of going on living"

The same is true for soldiers who have survived intense and prolonged combat, or for torture victims. James Bond in his very first book was horribly tortured so badly he almost ended up castrated, are you saying Bond should be suicidal for the rest of the hugely popular and lauded book and film series? Shawshank Redemption was all about a character who was repeatedly gang raped in the first act taking control of his life and finding happiness, satisfaction and confidence.

"She would not approach the danger with an almost amused disregard like she does in earlier games"

That's just your artistic opinion on character development. You are going too far to claim this is based on psychology.

"What makes good stories is up in the air and up to any one of us to decide, but what doesn't make good characters is using a trope older than the video game industry itself"

Why not. You say its up to anyone what makes a good story then you talk in absolutes of what doesn't work.

You never explained why it is shallow. I think it is actually a very VERY complex issue as borne out by how much discussion there has been about this subject.

 

[Treblaine]

If she ends up getting stronger as the game goes on, no. If she's constently getting abused, beaten, and depicted as "weak" through out the game untill the end credits, maybe.

When is she depicted as weak? She beats everyone in the trailers.

If you mean she isn't portrayed as a Mary Sue who can just magic her way out of shitty situations by her being so perfect. Then yea, she's no longer that.

Admitadly I haven't been paying much attention to the game, but from what I saw it usually depicts Laura falling into rapids, being chased in a dark cave, this sexual harassment stuff, ect. While I like that she isn't a Mary Sue, I do hope she get's out of this negative rut by the third act.

You just described Uncharted, no one complains about Nathan falling out of trains, getting shot or falling down mountains.

This is why the Mary Sue label only being applied to females is sexist and I've always thought so.

I think both male and female characters should be able to be depicted as perfect or fatally flawed, the important thing is the RIGHT one is used for what is suitable for the story which is a subtle decision to be made by the writer/director. That means you cannot totally rule out any one. Any given single incidence of a stereotype isn't a problem, but collective when it is done nearly ALL the time.

 

[Azure Knight-Zeo]

If she ends up getting stronger as the game goes on, no. If she's constently getting abused, beaten, and depicted as "weak" through out the game untill the end credits, maybe.

When is she depicted as weak? She beats everyone in the trailers.

If you mean she isn't portrayed as a Mary Sue who can just magic her way out of shitty situations by her being so perfect. Then yea, she's no longer that.

Admitadly I haven't been paying much attention to the game, but from what I saw it usually depicts Laura falling into rapids, being chased in a dark cave, this sexual harassment stuff, ect. While I like that she isn't a Mary Sue, I do hope she get's out of this negative rut by the third act.

You just described Uncharted, no one complains about Nathan falling out of trains, getting shot or falling down mountains.

But isn't Nathan Drake usualy smugging it up while going through it? I didn't play any of the Uncharted games, but isn't Drake acting like he's the one in control of the situation? Compare that to the new Lara...

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Edit: Please stop quoting me I have reiterated my stand point many times in the thread.

Perhaps the better thing to do would be to retract your comment, because plenty of people have proven you claim false.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Edit: Please stop quoting me I have reiterated my stand point many times in the thread.

Perhaps the better thing to do would be to retract your comment, because plenty of people have proven you claim false.

No they haven't they didn't come up with any example of a man being brutalized in a game to explain why he's tough later...only ones 'where their family has died.' or the game already starts with him being badass.

Crystal Dynamics have basically come out and denied everything so I'm just going to wait and see now.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Edit: Please stop quoting me I have reiterated my stand point many times in the thread.

Perhaps the better thing to do would be to retract your comment, because plenty of people have proven you claim false.

No they haven't they didn't come up with any example of a man being brutalized in a game to explain why he's tough later...only ones 'where their family has died.'

Crystal Dynamics have basically come out and denied everything so I'm just going to wait and see now.

I can think of one example where a guy is brutalized for doing nothing other than trusting another person, and its a Crystal Dynamics game.

Raziel having his wing bones broken, his skin burned off and his jaw disintegrate seems pretty brutal.

-------​

As for your reaction to other people pointing out brutality in the form of losing family members, there is a phrase for what your doing [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts#As_logical_fallacy].

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

It's not moving the goalposts to demand the same situation that Lara is in from an example.
All of these examples is where the guy is already portrayed as a big badass hero so it doesn't count.

Ironically the family examples thing just shows how common the 'Women in fridges' trope is.
I just don't get why they have to take away a strong female protagonist when we hardly have any to start with.

Like I said they have retracted the guys statements so we will see what happens now. I have no idea why you guys are jumping all over me for this. The only reason I care is because I want the game to be decent and for them not to ruin the Lara Croft character.

snip

Like I said it doesn't count because it's presented as 'Look how much of a badass he is for surviving this! Rather than 'Shes a weak girl and she can't do anything. Quick protect her!'

It's just not the same thing.

It puts a different spin on it when she is portrayed as weak from the get go.