Poll: Male reproductive rights

[Carnagath]

When a man doesn't want a child, and the woman uses her religion as an excuse to not get an abortion (or any other reason) children are born without a loving home with two financially stable parents.

I wonder where (or when) you live. It's 2011, a screwed up home and parents is the norm, even when both of them wanted children, which they proved incapable of raising properly because they were fuckups. In fact, many single parent children are much happier and more loved than "normal" children. Regardless of gender-specific arguments, your law of consent would do little, if anything, to improve the situation.

Nothing short of government controlled tests that make sure you are capable of becoming a parent would help. Of course then if you were already pregnant and a crack whore and your husband had stabbed you 5 times in the past while drunk, the state would have to forcefully terminate your pregnancy if it was in its early stages or immediately sieze the child after birth if it was in the late stages. Which would be a nightmare.

Holy shit, I think I have a new idea for a novella. Thanks, Escapist.

 

[Epona]

Here's the reality, when men can't afford to raise their children, they are punished. When women can't afford to raise their children, they are given welfare.

Child support is set at a percentage of income so it is never beyond their means.

LOL, yeah right. Child support is alot more complicated than that. A court can set child support based on your POTENTIAL.

In other words, if a court decides you could be making $100,000 a year they could set the amount based on a percentage of that. That percentage could be more than you make at your current job. Further, child support doesn't take into account any abnormality you may have. Let's say you get laid off because the economy sucks, because your city got flooded or whatever, the child support will build up and if in three months you don't pay...you could be in jail or have your license suspended making it even harder to pay said child support.

Luckily I have never been in such a position but it could happen to me as I have seen it happen to others.

So again, LOL, yeah right!

This happened to my father almost word-for-word. He worked for the government, so his projected income was wonky and the child support was much more than the standard 1/3. Then his job got outsourced a few years back, and the amount he was expected to pay didn't change.

Indeed, it's pathetic that so many support treating men as slaves for committing the crime of having sex that resulted in pregnancy.

Accepting responsibility for your actions must be horrible indeed. If there are flaws in the system then fair enough but that's not to say that the entire idea is flawed.

Men should have to accept responsibility for making a child as much as the woman who 'is left holding it' so to speak.

The casual attitude towards abortion in this thread is kind of shocking I'm pro choice but it's not like going to have your appendix out.

It's interesting that men who don't want to be parents are told they are not accepting their responsibilities but women who abort or adopt out aren't told the same.

Many women DO abort because they aren't ready to become parent but society is accepting of this. There is a double standard here.

 

[Epona]

Here's the reality, when men can't afford to raise their children, they are punished. When women can't afford to raise their children, they are given welfare.

Child support is set at a percentage of income so it is never beyond their means.

LOL, yeah right. Child support is alot more complicated than that. A court can set child support based on your POTENTIAL.

In other words, if a court decides you could be making $100,000 a year they could set the amount based on a percentage of that. That percentage could be more than you make at your current job. Further, child support doesn't take into account any abnormality you may have. Let's say you get laid off because the economy sucks, because your city got flooded or whatever, the child support will build up and if in three months you don't pay...you could be in jail or have your license suspended making it even harder to pay said child support.

Luckily I have never been in such a position but it could happen to me as I have seen it happen to others.

So again, LOL, yeah right!

This happened to my father almost word-for-word. He worked for the government, so his projected income was wonky and the child support was much more than the standard 1/3. Then his job got outsourced a few years back, and the amount he was expected to pay didn't change.

Indeed, it's pathetic that so many support treating men as slaves for committing the crime of having sex that resulted in pregnancy.

Accepting responsibility for your actions must be horrible indeed. If there are flaws in the system then fair enough but that's not to say that the entire idea is flawed.

it is the womans actions as much as the mans. difference is, she has the option to not raise the child, he doesnt

Abortion isn't the casual choice alot of people in this thread seem to think it is.

...and yet it is a choice.

a very extreme and traumatic one. Why should a woman have to go through that just becuase a man can't cope with being a father?

Women never HAVE to abort, it is always their choice. Men HAVE to become wage slaves.

It is wrong to force an abortion or birth because it is her body. Yet, how many hours of work does a man surrender to pay child support over an 18 year period. His bodily rights are never taken into account.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Here's the reality, when men can't afford to raise their children, they are punished. When women can't afford to raise their children, they are given welfare.

Child support is set at a percentage of income so it is never beyond their means.

LOL, yeah right. Child support is alot more complicated than that. A court can set child support based on your POTENTIAL.

In other words, if a court decides you could be making $100,000 a year they could set the amount based on a percentage of that. That percentage could be more than you make at your current job. Further, child support doesn't take into account any abnormality you may have. Let's say you get laid off because the economy sucks, because your city got flooded or whatever, the child support will build up and if in three months you don't pay...you could be in jail or have your license suspended making it even harder to pay said child support.

Luckily I have never been in such a position but it could happen to me as I have seen it happen to others.

So again, LOL, yeah right!

This happened to my father almost word-for-word. He worked for the government, so his projected income was wonky and the child support was much more than the standard 1/3. Then his job got outsourced a few years back, and the amount he was expected to pay didn't change.

Indeed, it's pathetic that so many support treating men as slaves for committing the crime of having sex that resulted in pregnancy.

Accepting responsibility for your actions must be horrible indeed. If there are flaws in the system then fair enough but that's not to say that the entire idea is flawed.

Men should have to accept responsibility for making a child as much as the woman who 'is left holding it' so to speak.

The casual attitude towards abortion in this thread is kind of shocking I'm pro choice but it's not like going to have your appendix out.

It's interesting that men who don't want to be parents are told they are not accepting their responsibilities but women who abort or adopt out aren't told the same.

Many women DO abort because they aren't ready to become parent but society is accepting of this. There is a double standard here.

Because its their body and they should get to decide whether they give birth to a human being or not. Abortion is traumatic physically and emotionally and is a choice that will effect you for the rest of your life.

To me putting your child up for adoption isn't somthing that is easy either and in my view at least the woman is taking responsibility and handing it over to someone who can care for it.
Note that men don't have to pay child support to adopted children if they did then you might have a point in comparison.

It is wrong to force an abortion or birth because it is her body. Yet, how many hours of work does a man surrender to pay child support over an 18 year period. His bodily rights are never taken into account.

It's work that he would be doing to support himself anyway.

 

[Odbarc]

If women required men to consent in a form, they would either become illegal mothers by having their child out of a hospital and away from where they can be found in an otherwise safe and healthy environment or force women to do things to get men to write off on the agreement.

With the "spread the seed" excuse cheaters use to cheat, I think it would be best if the male parental donor can merely cop-out of any financial (and thusly also legal) responsibilities.
For THAT to work, there would be required incentives to NOT cop-out. Which would also make no real practical sense and encourage people to breed for no particular global benefit. (We're already over populated.)



The real problem is people want to have all the fun and none of the responsibilities. A woman carrying your child against your will? Did she rape you?
The underline problem is likely that a pregnant woman has 100% choice in the matter of whether the man is financially responsible depending on if she chooses to keep or kill that baby.
If a woman doesn't want the baby and the man does, you lose the baby. Is that fair?

 

[Ghengis John]

The mother is applauded for her bravery and allowed to repeat this atrocious behavior in order to get a meal ticket.

I want to laugh but I can't. You've never seen how people live on financial assistance have you? There's barely enough to feed the kid, let alone the kid and yourself.

Men should have to accept responsibility for making a child as much as the woman who 'is left holding it' so to speak.

The casual attitude towards abortion in this thread is kind of shocking I'm pro choice but it's not like going to have your appendix out.

Agreed. On both counts.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

[sarcasm] Oh goody, yet another thread dedicated to righting all the injustices against us poor, downtrodden, persecuted guys. Yup, we really need to start taking our rights back, guys. Our lot in life is so damn hard. People can't really expect us to take responsibility for where we put our dicks, can they? [/sarcasm]

 

[Erana]

Here's the reality, when men can't afford to raise their children, they are punished. When women can't afford to raise their children, they are given welfare.

Child support is set at a percentage of income so it is never beyond their means.

LOL, yeah right. Child support is alot more complicated than that. A court can set child support based on your POTENTIAL.

In other words, if a court decides you could be making $100,000 a year they could set the amount based on a percentage of that. That percentage could be more than you make at your current job. Further, child support doesn't take into account any abnormality you may have. Let's say you get laid off because the economy sucks, because your city got flooded or whatever, the child support will build up and if in three months you don't pay...you could be in jail or have your license suspended making it even harder to pay said child support.

Luckily I have never been in such a position but it could happen to me as I have seen it happen to others.

So again, LOL, yeah right!

This happened to my father almost word-for-word. He worked for the government, so his projected income was wonky and the child support was much more than the standard 1/3. Then his job got outsourced a few years back, and the amount he was expected to pay didn't change.

But what about my father? He had a PhD in chemistry, a burgeoning career with real earning power and probably $2 million in inheritance. He moved his money around and then didn't pay taxes, so when the divorce came along, he looked like he was in debt, rather than owning prolly $2 million worth in inheritance.
And then he fought for partial custody so he would pay less. (Which God knows how he got, because the grounds for divorce were, "Hey, he's kinda abusive." But of course, a fracture isn't really a broken bone when you have a high-price lawyer, now is it?)
And then he proceeds to make being around him so bad and often downright dangerous for my sister and I that they effectively dropped the whole thing. (Did I mention he is a hoarder? You've seen the TV shows; would you condemn your child to having to live in a situation like that with a dangerous man?)

But he played the court and dragged out the legal proceedings of the divorce for four years draining my mother's time, energy and money, and threatened to do the same thing again, with the ammunition of "She wouldn't let me see the kids" if she ever tried to get more money from him.

Ten years later, he managed to shove two million up his nose, and between the exacerbated divorce, student loans, and medical bills, at 19 I'm already in thousands and thousands worth of debt, and I can't remember a time when I didn't have to be afraid of my family's financial situation.

So yeah, it really isn't reasonable to judge Child Support based on a few unusual and extreme cases, because you have your father on one hand, and my father on the other.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I dont even know why I'm arguing so much in this thread I only came in to give my two cents.... :|

That's it for me guys im off to play games.

 

[Alex Gray]

Look, this idea that governments should be in charge of reproduction is a bad one. History is not on your side here.

If there's one thing I hope people take away from this thread, it's this. Reproductive rights, deciding who gets legal marriage benefits and adoption rights, deciding who supports a child - the above is the correct answer to all of them until we as a species become a lot more trustworthy.

 

[Epona]

Here's the reality, when men can't afford to raise their children, they are punished. When women can't afford to raise their children, they are given welfare.

Child support is set at a percentage of income so it is never beyond their means.

LOL, yeah right. Child support is alot more complicated than that. A court can set child support based on your POTENTIAL.

In other words, if a court decides you could be making $100,000 a year they could set the amount based on a percentage of that. That percentage could be more than you make at your current job. Further, child support doesn't take into account any abnormality you may have. Let's say you get laid off because the economy sucks, because your city got flooded or whatever, the child support will build up and if in three months you don't pay...you could be in jail or have your license suspended making it even harder to pay said child support.

Luckily I have never been in such a position but it could happen to me as I have seen it happen to others.

So again, LOL, yeah right!

This happened to my father almost word-for-word. He worked for the government, so his projected income was wonky and the child support was much more than the standard 1/3. Then his job got outsourced a few years back, and the amount he was expected to pay didn't change.

Indeed, it's pathetic that so many support treating men as slaves for committing the crime of having sex that resulted in pregnancy.

Accepting responsibility for your actions must be horrible indeed. If there are flaws in the system then fair enough but that's not to say that the entire idea is flawed.

Men should have to accept responsibility for making a child as much as the woman who 'is left holding it' so to speak.

The casual attitude towards abortion in this thread is kind of shocking I'm pro choice but it's not like going to have your appendix out.

It's interesting that men who don't want to be parents are told they are not accepting their responsibilities but women who abort or adopt out aren't told the same.

Many women DO abort because they aren't ready to become parent but society is accepting of this. There is a double standard here.

Because its their body and they should get to decide whether they give birth to a human being or not. Abortion is traumatic physically and emotionally and is a choice that will effect you for the rest of your life.

To me putting your child up for adoption isn't somthing that is easy either and in my view at least the woman is taking responsibility and handing it over to someone who can care for it.
Note that men don't have to pay child support to adopted children if they did then you might have a point in comparison.

It is wrong to force an abortion or birth because it is her body. Yet, how many hours of work does a man surrender to pay child support over an 18 year period. His bodily rights are never taken into account.

It's work that he would be doing to support himself anyway.

No it isn't. He could work less hours if he wasn't giving 1/3 of his money away. Justify slavery all you want but it doesn't make it right.

 

[lucaf]

Here's the reality, when men can't afford to raise their children, they are punished. When women can't afford to raise their children, they are given welfare.

Child support is set at a percentage of income so it is never beyond their means.

LOL, yeah right. Child support is alot more complicated than that. A court can set child support based on your POTENTIAL.

In other words, if a court decides you could be making $100,000 a year they could set the amount based on a percentage of that. That percentage could be more than you make at your current job. Further, child support doesn't take into account any abnormality you may have. Let's say you get laid off because the economy sucks, because your city got flooded or whatever, the child support will build up and if in three months you don't pay...you could be in jail or have your license suspended making it even harder to pay said child support.

Luckily I have never been in such a position but it could happen to me as I have seen it happen to others.

So again, LOL, yeah right!

This happened to my father almost word-for-word. He worked for the government, so his projected income was wonky and the child support was much more than the standard 1/3. Then his job got outsourced a few years back, and the amount he was expected to pay didn't change.

Indeed, it's pathetic that so many support treating men as slaves for committing the crime of having sex that resulted in pregnancy.

Accepting responsibility for your actions must be horrible indeed. If there are flaws in the system then fair enough but that's not to say that the entire idea is flawed.

it is the womans actions as much as the mans. difference is, she has the option to not raise the child, he doesnt

Abortion isn't the casual choice alot of people in this thread seem to think it is.

it is still a choice. we have NONE. it is traumatic for you, but you can still choose it. if a woman doesn't want a child, she doesn't need to have it. if a man doesn't want a child, he is still paying for it for the next 18 years. if a woman can decide to not raise a child, why can't a man? you say it his responsibility, but what are her responsibilities? you don't seem to realise that women are making the choices for the men. and while you say (quite rightly) it would be wrong to force a woman to raise or not to raise a child, that is EXACTLY what happens to men. the only difference is it is physically traumatic for the woman, and while that certainly makes it worse, it doesn't excuse the fact that men are paying for a decision they didn't make

have you got an actual reason for why men should be forced to provide for a child that it was not their choice to have?

also, think of adoption. a woman can give away the child to be raised by somebody else, with no financial obligations and forgoing all responsibility. but a man cannot do exactly that: if he leaves the baby to be raised by somebody else, he has to pay for it

 

[ShadowKatt]

I love the answer that comes up every time this thread is done.

Woman doesn't want child: Use contraceptive, have abortion, give for adoption

Man doesn't want child: Don't have sex. Ever. In fact, just go cut your penis off.

Totally fair option. After we establish this maybe we cah start on reproductive genetic engineering so we can eliminate the male population and continue the species as a single-sexed entity.

Of course he can still have sex. Just not vaginal sex. I think I can speak for most women in that we're perfectly willing to give oral if the man is willing to reciprocate. Seriously, there are a hundred ways that you can still have sex that have zero risk of resulting in pregnancy. Stop being dramatic - no one is asking you to cut your dick off.

Actually, there are many people in this thread that ARE suggesting that. Any person in this thread that has said anything akin to "If you don't want to have a baby, don't have sex!" did exactly that. They might not have outwardly gone out and said "Cut your dick off" but they DID say Don't have sex. Ever. Unless you want to have a child, don't ever have sex. If you're a man. If you're a woman, it's cool, fuck until the cows come home, then fuck the cow, but if you're a man, go be a monk.

 

[HalfTangible]

Frankly people should have a liscense to have a kid at all.

 

[Ghengis John]

snip

Your father seems like a very intelligent man. Even if he is evil. On the bright side, even if he didn't do a lot to help you out you seem to have his wits. That is not an acquittal of his actions btw. May you use them, like your avatar, for good.

have you got an actual reason for why men should be forced to provide for a child that it was not their choice to have?

If you can't afford a broken jaw then stay out of fights. If you can't afford a kid, then keep it in your pants. Otherwise you cast the die your own damn self. If it comes up snake eyes, deal with it.

 

[Kadoodle]

I'ma play devil's advocate here and say that while it may be her body, it's both of their lives.

 

[Zaik]

Interesting idea, but you run into the issue of what to do with illegally produced children. Most likely they'll fall on the government to take care of, which ends any chance of this ever happening immediately.

Just stick with the good old vasectomy, they can be sort of reversed sometimes if you have a change of heart later.

 

[michiehoward]

I thought this would be a "why doesn't a man have a say in when a woman gets an abortion"

As in, why doesn't anyone give a shit when the man actually wants the baby and the woman disagree's where is this man reproductive rights ect ect, there you would at least have my sympathies, what you discussing now I would rather not contribute due to the fact I liked not being banned from these forums.

 

[Ariseishirou]

Actually, there are many people in this thread that ARE suggesting that. Any person in this thread that has said anything akin to "If you don't want to have a baby, don't have sex!" did exactly that. They might not have outwardly gone out and said "Cut your dick off" but they DID say Don't have sex. Ever. Unless you want to have a child, don't ever have sex. If you're a man. If you're a woman, it's cool, fuck until the cows come home, then fuck the cow, but if you're a man, go be a monk.

How is "don't have vaginal intercourse with a woman you don't trust or whose child you would be unwilling to take care of" equivalent to "chop your dick off"? Having other kinds of sex with said women, and having vaginal intercourse with women you do trust or whose child you would be willing to take care of, is of course perfectly fine. In fact, men, fuck until the cows come home and then fuck the cow, but use some common sense whilst doing do. That's not too much to ask, is it?

(On the other hand, I'd get behind an "opt out" option wherein the man signed away all paternity rights in return for waiving child support payments, but forcing a woman to have an abortion - or not to - is just bleeding ridiculous.)

 

[thepyrethatburns]

-snip-

Alright, since 186 people have agreed that personal responsibility and/or abstinance are not viable options, we'll go with your option with one change:

The man also has to get a vasectomy. After all, if the man is irresponsible enough that (judging from the comments) he doesn't have the common sense/willpower to either abstain or use birth control AND is callous enough to force a woman to abort, then the man should not be allowed to pollute the gene pool.

This way, everyone wins. Men aren't subjected to "18 years of wage slavery". Women get a measure of revenge against the Neo-Catholics endorsing this measure. The gene pool is cleansed of some of the worst elements polluting it.

I feel that even Noob Saibot would approve.