Poll: Moral choices in RPGs

[Haydyn]

Friendship bars are just as bad, whether they are there or not. I find myself sucking up to my party in games like Kotor and Dragon Age just to get more dialog/kiss/items/sex.

The problem is we have the ability to play again, with great rewards for either side of the spectrum. Imagine if you could go through life twice, once pleasing everybody and one being an evil jerk. And if you are either of those then you get rewarded. Now imagine a game where both extremes are not rewarded. That would encourage the player to think for themselves a bit more.

Sure, we still have the problem of having either good, evil, or neutral decisions, but sometimes life really is like that. I was driving in the snow and side swiped a parked car. Little damage was done to my car, but the othe car had a medium sized dent in the door. I could have chosen the evil/selfish option and left, but I chose the good/responsible option and went to get a note with my number on it, and when I came back the owner was there.

Maybe the problem lies within the major difference between life and games. If that situation was in a game, I would have never seen that car again had I drove off. After that scene, it would be never referenced again. Not taking that opportunity would seem irresponsible because the only difference is how much money I lose, and what direction my moral meter moves. So in games the only reason to avoid the evil option is for when you are worried about your meter. It's vice versa for those odd times when being good is the option that you get the most out of.

There is really no solution to the moral choice system.

 

[Bobbity]

I think that there should be moral dilemmas, but that the results of the choices should be reflected in game, rather than on a morality meter. It's much more interesting if sometimes there's no right way to go, or if you're not explicitly told that you've done something good or bad. Besides, if you take the Witcher approach, then each decision has its own consequences, which aren't easily categorised at good/evil, but rather are a much more interesting mix of the two.

I also believe that relationships could do without the friend meters because, again, it's much more interesting if you don't know quite where you stand.

/edit
Having morality meters means that people are more likely to go with a choice they don't necessarily agree with, just for the sake of earning more points towards whatever alignment they're working at, which is stupid. Again, it's much more interesting if every choice has its own unique consequences, rather than just '+30 Paragon', or whatever.

 

[Javarock]

I Personnally liked New Vegas's system as well. I made the choices I would make. Sure I may be kleptomatic out of courisity at times, Btu mostly good and realtion with a fraction does that. Take for example, My friend when playing got "Soft Hearted Devil" Beacuse he was kind to a civ then attacked. Of course eventually it progressed to something even worse but I still like how it did so.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Some are moral dilemmas notably some of the loyalty mission in ME2. In fact I'd wagger that many choices in games would be much harder if there weren't a glowing message that says "bad choice" or "good choice" after you make your decision. Think about it if everything was just a choice, it would be so clear which way is good and which is bad?

 

[GiantRaven]

In fact I'd wagger that many choices in games would be much harder if there weren't a glowing message that says "bad choice" or "good choice" after you make your decision.

How is that not a good thing?

 

[Twilight_guy]

In fact I'd wagger that many choices in games would be much harder if there weren't a glowing message that says "bad choice" or "good choice" after you make your decision.

How is that not a good thing?

I didn't say it wasn't a good thing. In fact If I was designing a game around such choices I'd probably eliminate the whole morality bar from the game for just that reason. I'm more of a fan of duel choice bars that support neutral and equal opposites of equal value like magic vs. tech or something.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Moral choices have the potential to be great, but as they are now they are almost always some silly little gimmick.

That's why I find Deus Ex and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. to have the best moral choice systems, because they don't actually have them. For example you can kill a guy and take his money, and there are often major repercussions for that ingame, but without the game suddenly saying
'+5 Renegade points! You're evil now!'
And the game changes depending on your actions, not dialogue options.

If these choices are done properly in the first place then you don't need to be constantly reminded that your character is doing something right or wrong.

It's also worth noticing that good moral choices in Deus Ex don't always result in a good response for some characters which in retrospect, makes you're obviously well meaning choice not so beneficial to any party and will consequently affect the game later on.

The Witcher does moral choices well (if you exclude, but not entirely, the relationships mini quest with shani or trish). You really don't know what effect you're having until it bites in the ass later (they tend to do a fancy art montage for you so you can recall the actions you took). This is especially true when you're choosing a side (or abstaining from doing so).

As was said, the best moral system, isn't a system at all. It is giving you options with consequences, not labelling you Good or Bad, like my Mom does when watching crime dramas.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

When developers of RPGs start spending more time on having versatile stories that are affected by quest outcomes, conversations and in-game actions then we will see moral systems that actually work. Until that day however, we will continue to have mediocre slider bar systems.

Don't hold your breath.

 

[A Weakgeek]

I know this thread is dead, but i would just like to thank you all for your opinions! Sadly I suffered a power outage, and wasn't able to discuss this with you.

 

[dWintermut3]

What I hate most about moral systems as usually implemented (ME gets a pass here, see later on) is that usually the choice is between being a kitten-stomping innocent-murdering psychopath or an angelic protector of truth justice and apple pie. I can predict, whenever I take a quest for some unfortunate I will get a choice. Lets say the quest is to save a kitten from a tree. I will get a choice to do it then refuse payment and thus get "good karma," to demand payment and thus gain no karma, or to shoot said kitten in the head in front of the little boy and laugh as he is sprayed with its entrails and thus gain evil karma.


Morality choices in MOST games are almost caricatures, to be good you must be angelic, to be evil you have to be the kind of evil that only exists in comic books: setting fire to orphans, shooting innocents in the head, demanding money for not killing peoples' mothers, ect.

Mass Effect only gets a pass because there is no good and evil really, rather there is "paragon" which is always "lets all get along" ghandi bullcrap and "renegade" which is always xenophobic BS. To be renegade you're not 'pee on kittens and set fire to orphans', but you do have to be so xenophobic that you come across as a white supremacist.

 

[Axolotl]

I think the key problem is when the game has an actual stat to represent morality, becuase that means all moral choices in the game must have a definitively right and wrong answers. This means either the moral choices aren't even vaguely nteresting (see Bioshock) or even worse you do what you think is right only for the game to tell you the no you're wrong and now evil, there's a reason why all version of the Trolley Problem start off by saying "There are no right or wrong answers.".

Dragon Age was a step in the right direction is this regard by having the moral bar replaced by what NPCs think of you but the implimentation was lacking because it had no real consequences. I heard New Vegas had something similar but with it being based on a town's opinion on you. which would also be a step in the right direction.

 

[JourneyThroughHell]

Paragon/Renegade is the worst thing about Mass Effect, by far. Such creative situations, so many actions you can take, but there always HAS to be some annoying "+5 Renegade" after the choice you've made.

In a good RPG (Alpha Protocol) choices are open to interpretation and the only reward for making a certain choice is its influence on the world.

Yes...

I just kinda sad AP had a better dialogue system than ME.

Sue me.

 

[ultrachicken]

I wish games would ditch the good/evil meter already. The ideal game would tally up what choices you've made to have the world respond appropriately. So, if you give money to beggars all the time, maybe build up a reputation for doing so, and more beggars will swarm you. Or, if you kill a town's beloved blacksmith, they will treat you inhospitably. Something other than being either the chipper protagonist with a halo who farts rainbows or the demonic psychopath who pisses acid.

 

[StormShaun]

fun in most games in some not so much...

 

[Hubbe]

Moral choice systems...

Well today, they are quite pointless, as all the differentiate between is "Super-good" and "Mega-evil".

However, if they can evolve into something more, covering a bigger spectrum rather than just black and white... Then we can talk about them being in RPGs.

Sadly, humanity's own views of good and evil need to evolve similarly.

But alas, as humans, we can't agree on anything.

 

[Random Encounter]

I love choices in games but the whole good and evil idea is stupid.

There arn't many people out their who would be evil for the sake of evil in real life.

 

[Savagezion]

Paragon/Renegade is the worst thing about Mass Effect, by far. Such creative situations, so many actions you can take, but there always HAS to be some annoying "+5 Renegade" after the choice you've made.

In a good RPG (Alpha Protocol) choices are open to interpretation and the only reward for making a certain choice is its influence on the world.

Yes...

I just kinda sad AP had a better dialogue system than ME.

Sue me.

Totally agree. (And agree with the OP. I find it ironic this (AP's dialogue system being better) actually makes replay value even higher for AP. No morality = I wanna play it again and see where it takes me.

 

[The Forces of Chaos]

Did anyone play the dragon age 2 demo? There was a strange choice on killing the templar yourself, letting your companion do it, or leaving them to decide and none of them has an alignment i think.

 

[magicmonkeybars]

Dragon Age: Origins doesn't actually contain a good/bad slider though. I know it seems like that whenever you have Alistair in your party, but it only gauges how much the characters agree with your actions.

Now, it does come pretty close (if you figure that Wynne=Lawful Good and Morrigan=Chaotic Evil), but that's still down to your own interpretation of the system.

[small]DA2 has a nearly identical friend/rival system.[/small]

True there is no slider but you can still be punished for making an "evil" choice.
For example if you take an unhardened Leliana with you to the temple and destroy the ashes you'll lose her and for the rest of the game you won't be able to open any chests (if you kill Zev as well or don't build him as a lockpicker).

Playing a mean uncaring "evil" person in Dragon Age always hurts your efforts.
It might be that the player screws themselves by being "evil" but it made the choice of saving or ruining the ashes a bit hollow.
Saving the ashes gives a far greater reward than destroying them ever would.

In vampire the masquerade bloodlines you can close yourself off from endings by making enemies of certain npcs, the way you treat them during the game effects if they're willing to support/believe you at the end of the game.
Being nice to people gives you different endings but it never screws you out of certain parts of the game like chests or shops or quests.

In Dragon Age it is tempting to leave the resolution of every big moral choice until you've played through to the last 90% of the game rather than just dealing with them as they come.
The moral choices in Dragon Age are more gameplay choices than moral ones.