Poll: New Forum Rules: Yay or Nay?

[Sarge034]

Snip

I going to have to go with a complete nay. Let me show you why...

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one is entitled to attack others for sharing, or not sharing, that opinion."

"We put a lot of work into the content on the site, and if you've just shown up to trample on that hard work, we will remove your comments and ask you to leave."

"This includes, but is not limited to communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give The Escapist, an individual creator, advertiser, site sponsor, product, group, government or nation a negative image."

"If you have a problem with the moderation team or the rules, there is an appeals system in place for that. Publicly airing your grievances or mocking and disrespecting either the moderators in their official capacity or the rules will only get you further warnings."

"Posting in an inactive thread older than 30 days is not allowed."

LOL, wut...? You have the right to express your opinion without fear of attack, unless your opinion casts The Escapist in an unfavorable light. In which case, get ready to get attacked! I also think thread necro-ing is better than new threads so I believe that clause to be completely... (I can't think of a word that is sure to not get me modded. Hell, even complaining about this stuff seems to be grounds for mod wrath...) And what is this about not being able to state your opinions about governments, countries, and the like? I can no longer say, "My (The US government) sucks." but I can still say, "My (The US government) is awesome." Both are statements made that sound factual, but one is negative and puts the US government in a bad light. Also, note that most YouTube videos are banned now due to them containing ads.

There's a difference between clicking on a site video and clicking on an article to read it. =P

As for the 30 day rule, it does seem a bit short, but considering how many new topics are made every day, you'd be surprised how many threads could happen in that time period.

There is always the option of remaking the thread to start the discussion off again, if a Mod isn't willing to bump it for you.

Actually I was talking more about the auto-playing video ads....

Ah, sorry. I wouldn't know about those due to Pubclub. You should talk to the Tech Team [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Tech-Team] about those. :/

But it is the simple irony that this CoC would forbid videos that auto-play when they are a staple of The Escapist's ads.

I do have a question to put directly to you then. Is everyone who posts negatively in this forum getting a warning? There was a well thought out, reasonable, and sourced OP. There appears to be on topic discussion for both view points. Talking about the rules is not illegal in the US. I am not being a jerk, I am respecting others, and I'm putting effort into my communication. However, I am "publicly airing my grievances", "mocking", and "disrespecting" the rules by highlighting the hypocrisy or otherwise contradictory nature of the rules. How do these rules NOT stifle legitimate conversation? As always, the rules are unclear and appear to conflict with each other. It will ultimately come down to the mod's discretion making these rules relative to the mod reviewing the post.

And what is the big deal with thread necro-ing? So I posted my opinion of a topic at day 31. O...M...G... My addition to the conversation is pointless and obsolete. I should just go make a different thread on the same topic, because people don't get angry about not using the "search bar".

EDIT- Just went to the second page and found where you said this... "I'll try and elaborate but honestly I'm from the UK so I'm not as up to date with any American laws. (I always ask a US moderator when I'm unsure)

Since the Escapist offices are based in North Carolina, I'd assume that all rules about pot, etc, would fall under the same laws as that state.

If you, as a mod, have to assume about the rules then there is a problem.

 

[sky14kemea]

But it is the simple irony that this CoC would forbid videos that auto-play when they are a staple of The Escapist's ads.

I do have a question to put directly to you then. Is everyone who posts negatively in this forum getting a warning? There was a well thought out, reasonable, and sourced OP. There appears to be on topic discussion for both view points. Talking about the rules is not illegal in the US. I am not being a jerk, I am respecting others, and I'm putting effort into my communication. However, I am "publicly airing my grievances", "mocking", and "disrespecting" the rules by highlighting the hypocrisy or otherwise contradictory nature of the rules. How do these rules NOT stifle legitimate conversation? As always, the rules are unclear and appear to conflict with each other. It will ultimately come down to the mod's discretion making these rules relative to the mod reviewing the post.

And what is the big deal with thread necro-ing? So I posted my opinion of a topic at day 31. O...M...G... My addition to the conversation is pointless and obsolete. I should just go make a different thread on the same topic, because people don't get angry about not using the "search bar".

No, not every negative opinion on the forum is going to get modded. Not even your post about this will, because you're backing up your grievances with solid reasoning, and you're not just here to outright insult the Escapist.

Not everyone is going to be happy with the rules, so there isn't much I can do about these problems. All I'm hoping to do by posting here is help clarify things for people who don't understand, to the best of my abilities.

I agree that some rules will come down to which Mod is doing the queue at that time, which is why the Appeals system isn't handled by Mods, but by the Staff themselves. That way the same Mod can't clear the appeal just because they believe it should stand.

The main aim of the rules is to have the site be an open place for discussion without turning into heated arguments filled with insults and baiting. Most topics can arguably be talked about, as long as it's worded respectably and people can be mature about it.

As for the Necroing rule, the reason it's being implemented officially now is because it only serves to bring back old topics that people have already voiced their opinions in, and probably long forgotten about. There's no reason not to have the same subject, mind you, but re-wording it in a different way and making a new thread could help people learn new viewpoints that they didn't think about before.

Simply cycling through all the old threads will just end up being a constant loop of the same information over and over again. That's why we encourage more active, up to date discussions.

Having said that, it was mentioned that some topics can be brought back with permission if a good case is given for it. If someone genuinely thinks there's more to be added to a post/topic that's already there, instead of just wanting to add another post onto their count with another agreeing opinion, then it's still a legitimate form of discussion.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I don't see why necroing should be punishable. You see people constantly making threads that are basically identical to older ones. If it's a regular "social issue" kind of thread, you'll basically see a repeat of all the same arguments. Why don't people just read the old threads and if they happen to have a new argument, put it there? It's really boring seeing the same threads with different titles, rehashing the same arguments.

PLUS, does this mean people can't add to the Scary Thread anymore?! I like checking back on that every now and then to see if anything creepy has been posted recently. Sometimes it goes quite a while without anyone posting but it's always worth it if someone posts an awesome new pasta.

Despite the above stuff, the vast majority of the rules are perfectly fine so I voted yay.

 

[IceForce]

LOL, wut...? You have the right to express your opinion without fear of attack, unless your opinion casts The Escapist in an unfavorable light. In which case, get ready to get attacked!
And what is this about not being able to state your opinions about governments, countries, and the like? I can no longer say, "My (The US government) sucks." but I can still say, "My (The US government) is awesome." Both are statements made that sound factual, but one is negative and puts the US government in a bad light.

Good point. You've picked up on something there that I missed.

This includes, but is not limited to communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give The Escapist, an individual creator, advertiser, site sponsor, product, group, government or nation a negative image.

Why can't we say slanderous things about, or paint in a negative image, a product, group, government or nation? That seems very much like it would stifle discussion and opinion.

If I was to say how much I hate Coca Cola, for instance (a product), or how much of a backwards-ass nation North Korea is (a nation), I would get a warning? After all, I'm painting these things in a negative light.

I guess I'll see soon enough, if I get a warning for this post.

 

[Sarge034]

snip

I do appreciate your allowing me to express my opinion, but what if another mod takes offense at it? There is literally no clause that says I can publicly air my grievances if I back them up with facts. This is the entire clause dealing with this issue.

"Have Respect for the Moderation Team and the Rules

The moderation team works very hard to keep the forums clean, and the rules all exist for a reason. If you have a problem with the moderation team or the rules, there is an appeals system in place for that. Publicly airing your grievances or mocking and disrespecting either the moderators in their official capacity or the rules will only get you further warnings."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/codeofconduct

So it is demonstrated that these "clarified" rules are just as muddled as they were before. Verdicts will vary from mod to mod. And as I said in my edit... "If you, as a mod, have to assume about the rules then there is a problem."

 

[sky14kemea]

snip

I do appreciate your allowing me to express my opinion, but what if another mod takes offense at it? There is literally no clause that says I can publicly air my grievances if I back them up with facts. This is the entire clause dealing with this issue.

"Have Respect for the Moderation Team and the Rules

The moderation team works very hard to keep the forums clean, and the rules all exist for a reason. If you have a problem with the moderation team or the rules, there is an appeals system in place for that. Publicly airing your grievances or mocking and disrespecting either the moderators in their official capacity or the rules will only get you further warnings."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/codeofconduct

So it is demonstrated that these "clarified" rules are just as muddled as they were before. Verdicts will vary from mod to mod. And as I said in my edit... "If you, as a mod, have to assume about the rules then there is a problem."

If another Mod takes offence, then I'm willing to back up your appeal to the community Manager. As far as I can see, you're not insulting us, or the site, you're simply trying to get better clarification on what you see as a problem with our rules.

The guidelines that have always been used for those types of posts are "Offer your criticism constructively, without insult or hostility". I admit this may seem a bit vague too, but I'm not sure how to word it better than that.

I didn't see your edit from before, sorry. The reason I say assume is because I've always followed the rule that the laws fall under NC laws from my first few weeks as a Mod, which was 2 community managers ago. I haven't been corrected since, so naturally I'm still following that rule until told otherwise by Staff.

I can get clarification on that particular point when the Staff are online later, if that would reassure you in any way?

 

[TimeLord]

I don't see why necroing should be punishable. You see people constantly making threads that are basically identical to older ones. If it's a regular "social issue" kind of thread, you'll basically see a repeat of all the same arguments. Why don't people just read the old threads and if they happen to have a new argument, put it there? It's really boring seeing the same threads with different titles, rehashing the same arguments.

PLUS, does this mean people can't add to the Scary Thread anymore?! I like checking back on that every now and then to see if anything creepy has been posted recently. Sometimes it goes quite a while without anyone posting but it's always worth it if someone posts an awesome new pasta.

Despite the above stuff, the vast majority of the rules are perfectly fine so I voted yay.

Worry not concerned citizen, I am working on something for me and my fellow mods to ensure necroing threads like the scary thread, bubble breaker, pimp my gun etc are more acceptable

 

[Sarge034]

I can get clarification on that particular point when the Staff are online later, if that would reassure you in any way?

Not in the slightest. I'm not worried about taking a warning on this post, although I appreciate the offer to come to my aid if I get a warning, I'm just using this as an example of how confusing these rules are for me. By the word of the rules I am in the wrong, but by a mod I'm not. For no reason should rules be this difficult to clarify.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I don't see why necroing should be punishable. You see people constantly making threads that are basically identical to older ones. If it's a regular "social issue" kind of thread, you'll basically see a repeat of all the same arguments. Why don't people just read the old threads and if they happen to have a new argument, put it there? It's really boring seeing the same threads with different titles, rehashing the same arguments.

PLUS, does this mean people can't add to the Scary Thread anymore?! I like checking back on that every now and then to see if anything creepy has been posted recently. Sometimes it goes quite a while without anyone posting but it's always worth it if someone posts an awesome new pasta.

Despite the above stuff, the vast majority of the rules are perfectly fine so I voted yay.

Worry not concerned citizen, I am working on something for me and my fellow mods to ensure necroing threads like the scary thread, bubble breaker, pimp my gun etc are more acceptable

Phew, the idea of that thread going away scared me almost as much as some of the best stuff posted on it!

 

[Icehearted]

Spoiler: Like... snip

[HEADING=1]JoJo Proudly Presents:[/HEADING]


[HEADING=2]New Forum Rules: Yay or Nay?[/HEADING]​

That's right Escapists, in the last few minutes for the first time in a long while, the Code of Conduct of our forum was updated. You can find the new text by posting, or by following this link here:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/codeofconduct

In summary, the rules themselves are largely identical but the code gives further explanation for how those rules are applied. "Targeted Harassment & Bullying" is now a specific offence, which is probably for the best. The 'Use Our Forums Appropriately' has in particular been expanded, which is definitely a good move as the previous format was very unclear on what exactly was prohibited. Posting in a thread older than 30 days, i.e. 'necroing' is finally explicitly forbidden, with some exceptions on the discretion of the mods so our favourite long-time threads can survive.

Unfortunately, there are perhaps a couple of oversights. Regrettably, this section still exists:

Regardless of what some of our content creators may say, do or provoke within their videos or articles, this does not give members the ability to act in the same way. They are entertainers and if they brought their language or flaming into the forums, they would be held accountable, just as any other forum member of The Escapist would be.

While moderating content creators would obviously be unhelpful, we know from several examples that it doesn't occur and so this section is at best misleading. The following sentence is also a little unhelpfully vague: "Discussion of ad blockers, pedophilia, illegal acts, and pornography is never allowed." Does this mean that discussing a crime in the news would technically be against the CoC, since we would be discussing an illegal act? Probably not in practice but it could be interpreted that way.

Overall, it's a 'Yay' from myself but there's still room for improvement, still good effort on the behalf of the staff and mods, so hat's off to them for all their hard work. Oh and we have a new community manager [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/profiles/view/DrStrangelove] too, or something, so go worship him.

So Escapists, the new Code of Conduct, Yay or Nay?​

it more of a nay.

the content creators can figuratively fuck with us now and we cant even give them the tip back.
and oh boy, i have the feelöing they will use and abuse this...

see: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/galleryoftheday/10854-8-Games-From-EA-That-Dont-Suck

This was pretty much my immediate feeling.

I get that this is their house and we have to abide by their rules. I'll take it a step further however and say overall the rules here feel needlessly pretentious and self-aggrandizing. I think I get why it's done, this place has attracted it's fair share of trolls, "baiters", and other such undesirables, but getting so full of yourself that a post will be critiqued and warrant warnings or worse simply because a moderator decides that while said post has substance, but not substance enough seems characteristically inimical. Again, the house rules stand, but it's all eggshells from what I've read.

Sort of the ill-tempered spoiled child with all the nice toys that makes up some nasty little rules to overbearingly control how the other kids play on threat of being shunned, or in this case cut off or banned, such is the allegory.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Bloody hell mate, you are quick with this thread.

To be honest, i just agreed without reading, like 99% percent of the people.

But since it is just a clarification of the rules, it gets a yay i guess. Since there was some confusion every once in a while.

Though this is about terms and conditions, I think it applies here:
The reason being that people just don't want to read a really long document to be able to do what would otherwise be simple.

OT: For me I don't agree with two rules in particular.

1. No thread necroing. The reason being is that all this does is cause people to make multiple threads about the same exact subject over and over again instead of contributing to the ones that are already there like they should. It's not that this doesn't happen anyway, but this new rule only makes that much worse than it would have otherwise been.

2. The OP mentioned it already but it needs to be restated:

Regardless of what some of our content creators may say, do or provoke within their videos or articles, this does not give members the ability to act in the same way. They are entertainers and if they brought their language or flaming into the forums, they would be held accountable, just as any other forum member of The Escapist would be.

This may be the rule but it is just plain wrong. This kind of selective enforcement of the rules is unfair to everybody, it's kind of like a cop busting you for going 2 miles over the speed limit when everybody else is blowing past you at 40 miles over. It's confusing, irritating, and makes the mods look like they are singling people out. Most importantly, it sets a bad example, setting a good example is the number one responsibility of those who are in a position of authority, and mods and content creators are no exception. How would anyone expect to have people respect rules and those who enforce them when they, the ones who should be under the most intense scrutiny of all are going around breaking them all the time? Besides, it's biting the hand that feeds you to belittle your own fanbase.

In short, if the mods and content creators are allowed to insult and belittle us, whether it's for entertainment purposes or not we should be allowed to return in kind, and if we aren't allowed to do that then neither should they, fair's fair.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

The only thing I do really wish they would change is the Low Content Rule - at least as it applies to commenting on content. Many are the times when I have enjoyed content, but not had anything particular to say about it that hasn't already been said, and had to refrain from posting "Great job this week" on the comments thread because of that Low Content Rule. And that saddens me, because the content creators on here deserve a simple pat on the back or positive comment from fans when they do a good job.

I get the idea of regulating content to make sure people aren't just throwing up more post count, but? in this particular instance it just seems prohibitive of something that would be positive.

 

[TimeLord]

The only thing I do really wish they would change is the Low Content Rule - at least as it applies to commenting on content. Many are the times when I have enjoyed content, but not had anything particular to say about it that hasn't already been said, and had to refrain from posting "Great job this week" on the comments thread because of that Low Content Rule. And that saddens me, because the content creators on here deserve a simple pat on the back or positive comment from fans when they do a good job.

I get the idea of regulating content to make sure people aren't just throwing up more post count, but? in this particular instance it just seems prohibitive of something that would be positive.

You are welcome to say that they did a great job, but simply add why as well. Did you like Jim's handling of the subject matter? Yahtzee's rediculous rant on potatoes or Gavin's high standard of musical creaton and it's relevance to his choice of game/music/media?

Explain why you think it was great and you won't be modded for low content and you'll stimulate discussion too!

 

[chuckman1]

The only thing I have a big problem with is no posting in old threads.
Who the hell cares if an old thread pops up? Maybe it was good and just died out.
Also no calling someone a troll? Some people just act like one.
Low content rule seems dumb sometimes; and I'm sure I could think of more.

But come on guys do we really need to be corralled around? (Hope that made sense in the context.)
I get that we're a big community but if we didn't have to be so...obey the great rulers, if you get what I mean.

 

[TimeLord]

I don't see why necroing should be punishable. You see people constantly making threads that are basically identical to older ones. If it's a regular "social issue" kind of thread, you'll basically see a repeat of all the same arguments. Why don't people just read the old threads and if they happen to have a new argument, put it there? It's really boring seeing the same threads with different titles, rehashing the same arguments.

PLUS, does this mean people can't add to the Scary Thread anymore?! I like checking back on that every now and then to see if anything creepy has been posted recently. Sometimes it goes quite a while without anyone posting but it's always worth it if someone posts an awesome new pasta.

Despite the above stuff, the vast majority of the rules are perfectly fine so I voted yay.

Worry not concerned citizen, I am working on something for me and my fellow mods to ensure necroing threads like the scary thread, bubble breaker, pimp my gun etc are more acceptable

so you are working on "sticky threads"....?

Not necessarily. There are already 4 sticky threads in Off Topic all ready, if we added another 5 for example (Pimp my Gun, Scary Thread, Badge Gallery, Artist in Thee, Bubble breaker) it would ruin the list of threads on page one.

 

[TimeLord]

I don't see why necroing should be punishable. You see people constantly making threads that are basically identical to older ones. If it's a regular "social issue" kind of thread, you'll basically see a repeat of all the same arguments. Why don't people just read the old threads and if they happen to have a new argument, put it there? It's really boring seeing the same threads with different titles, rehashing the same arguments.

PLUS, does this mean people can't add to the Scary Thread anymore?! I like checking back on that every now and then to see if anything creepy has been posted recently. Sometimes it goes quite a while without anyone posting but it's always worth it if someone posts an awesome new pasta.

Despite the above stuff, the vast majority of the rules are perfectly fine so I voted yay.

Worry not concerned citizen, I am working on something for me and my fellow mods to ensure necroing threads like the scary thread, bubble breaker, pimp my gun etc are more acceptable

so you are working on "sticky threads"....?

Not necessarily. There are already 4 sticky threads in Off Topic all ready, if we added another 5 for example (Pimp my Gun, Scary Thread, Badge Gallery, Artist in Thee, Bubble breaker) it would ruin the list of threads on page one.

you could create a "all time favorites" tab on every forum so this way you could "sticky" them on the separated tab without filling up the entrance page of every forum.

That is more something for the Tech Guys. However I will certainly suggest it to them.

 

[Techno Squidgy]

EDIT: Just seen the new CoC, seems reasonable, sure any kinks will be worked out further down the line.

 

[mysecondlife]

I never had trouble with old one. and I don't notice much difference in new one. So.. yay??

 

[Psychobabble]

Bloody hell mate, you are quick with this thread.

To be honest, i just agreed without reading, like 99% percent of the people.

But since it is just a clarification of the rules, it gets a yay i guess. Since there was some confusion every once in a while.

Though this is about terms and conditions, I think it applies here:
The reason being that people just don't want to read a really long document to be able to do what would otherwise be simple.

OT: For me I don't agree with two rules in particular.

1. No thread necroing. The reason being is that all this does is cause people to make multiple threads about the same exact subject over and over again instead of contributing to the ones that are already there like they should. It's not that this doesn't happen anyway, but this new rule only makes that much worse than it would have otherwise been.

2. The OP mentioned it already but it needs to be restated:

Regardless of what some of our content creators may say, do or provoke within their videos or articles, this does not give members the ability to act in the same way. They are entertainers and if they brought their language or flaming into the forums, they would be held accountable, just as any other forum member of The Escapist would be.

This may be the rule but it is just plain wrong. This kind of selective enforcement of the rules is unfair to everybody, it's kind of like a cop busting you for going 2 miles over the speed limit when everybody else is blowing past you at 40 miles over. It's confusing, irritating, and makes the mods look like they are singling people out. Most importantly, it sets a bad example, setting a good example is the number one responsibility of those who are in a position of authority, and mods and content creators are no exception. How would anyone expect to have people respect rules and those who enforce them when they, the ones who should be under the most intense scrutiny of all are going around breaking them all the time? Besides, it's biting the hand that feeds you to belittle your own fanbase.

In short, if the mods and content creators are allowed to insult and belittle us, whether it's for entertainment purposes or not we should be allowed to return in kind, and if we aren't allowed to do that then neither should they, fair's fair.

Well I'd intended to give up posting any more at The Escapist, but I'm hoping this might be the proper venue to air my grievances where they might actually be heard.

So for one night only....

This has become a bone of contention with me this month as well. If a site allows it's content creators to treat it's own user base with an absolute lack of respect with no penalties or policing what so ever, I find that to be an incredibly bad business strategy. While good content creators are important to generate healthy site traffic, I'd say cultivating a happy, willing and loyal audience is just as important. Without a fan following coming to experience site content, the site dies. And the fastest way to drive away your fan base is to treat them like they or their feelings don't matter. This rule by it's very nature supports this exact bad behavior. For example, I personally wasn't offended by the recent "Yahtzee Incident", but I was by the moderators response to the people that were offended, that Yahtzee or any other site content creator can say what they want, gloves totally off, yet forum users aren't allowed to feel outraged when they feel they've been insulted. I feel that kind of thinking not only promotes a very unhealthy forum atmosphere, but also actively discourages users from participating in forum discussions.

So until site contributors are expected to treat their audience with the same respect we forum goers are supposed to show them or each other, the new forum rules get a big nay from me. And I also won't be contributing to any further forum conversations or be re-upping my pub club membership as I feel little motivation to do so, as I feel we forum users contribution to the site just isn't currently appreciated.

 

[b3nn3tt]

I went with undecided. It's nice that some of the rules have been clarified more, because making the rules clearer is always a good thing. But there are still some that seem a bit vague, so it would be nice if they could be cleared up a bit more. But as long as the clarifications are going to help keep the forum a nice place to be, then it's all good to me.