Poll: NYTimes covers sexual harassment in the gamer community

[A Weakgeek]

It easier to be a bloke gamer, I know. I've experienced it, pretending to be a guy does make it easier so I don't blame any girls who do.

This interests me. Ofcourse, it depends alot on what kind of games you play (Voice chat ofcourse is a thing on its own), but how often, and in what kind of situations do you need to pretend to be male online? Because I feel that whenever I play online, even though I chat alot with strangers, the gender never comes up. Never do I feel that something I say or do indicates that I'm male.

I've read studies that indicate that mmos are popular with girls and women. So I guess MMOs ,where you are more probable to spend more time socializing with the same people, it might come into play more often. I don't play alot of MMOs so maybe thats why I find the whole gender issue a bit weird.

I actually have a funny story with that. It has been a while so I might get some of the details wrong such as classes. Kinda the reverse. Back when I played WOW I was in a top raiding guild and going through Blackwing Lair. Now we had the staple members of the team and we were progressing through the three dragons(don't worry about knowing their names). However we were trying different pull techniques just in case cause the Devs wanted other members to start pulling the bosses. So we had one of our female mages give it a shot.

Well were were all on vent and good deal of people who raided weren't exactly all that relaxed as progressing was stressful and I couldn't blame em. But then when our guild leader asked if our female mage was ready, we heard HIS voice. Now he did honestly try to sound like a woman because he was accepted to the guild because he applied as a female. This made our raid group BUST A GUT! It was freaking hilarious that while I didn't know him for long he has been one of the guilds top raiding mages for YEARS. The only thing our guild leader said was, okay that was hilarious, okay pull when ready. Raid went smoothly and no one made a big deal. Just one of our guilds best moments.

The ability to roleplay a person you are not is very alluring especially when it comes to the social element and our ability to be anonymous that enables people to act how they want to act. They can be a dick, they can be an asshole, they can be a man, they can be a woman. It isn't all that hard to see why the ability to live in a fantasy world and roleplay empowers people whose backgrounds might not be all that positive when it comes to social interaction or enable them to get to know new people that don't live locally. It's that ability where your identity is safeguarded by yourself and the game that makes anything online possible for better or worse.

A good story. I wish I could enjoy something like that, but those kind of grop moments seem exclusive to mmos and clans in other games, which for the most part arent for me. (Usually dont quite match my playstyle)

 

[Phasmal]

It easier to be a bloke gamer, I know. I've experienced it, pretending to be a guy does make it easier so I don't blame any girls who do.

This interests me. Ofcourse, it depends alot on what kind of games you play (Voice chat ofcourse is a thing on its own), but how often, and in what kind of situations do you need to pretend to be male online? Because I feel that whenever I play online, even though I chat alot with strangers, the gender never comes up. Never do I feel that something I say or do indicates that I'm male.

I've read studies that indicate that mmos are popular with girls and women. So I guess MMOs ,where you are more probable to spend more time socializing with the same people, it might come into play more often. I don't play alot of MMOs so maybe thats why I find the whole gender issue a bit weird.

It was very early on in my gaming days*, so just on a few rubbish old MMO's.
I actually discovered it by accident, because my sister had an account name with the name `pete` in it (a singer she liked back then) and when I used her account for something a lot of people just assumed my name was Pete.
So yeah, MMO's, more social things. I didn't do it for very long, because I found a lot of people saying they didn't know any female gamers, and I thought `yeah, cause they're all hiding!`.

*Ok, early on in my online gaming days.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I gave you the proof you wanted and yet you just cherry pick my post and mention one thing out of the entirety of it.

I don't think I'm the one with the argument that's lacking here.

You keep bringing up male domination of the industry like it's a good thing and that women have brought this situation on themselves.
Again if the industry was more inclusive to women and not treated like a 'boys club' then more would become involved in it. Much like politics no?

Oh and vast majority of the examples on those web pages I posted are people who have never met the woman in question before. So it's hardly a 'personal matter'

Does it somehow make you uncomfortable that these women bring to light the abuse they are suffering?

It's nice to see you've decided to fall back on insulting me personally again as part of your brilliant argument, well done...

 

[Noetherian]

3. You don't have to put up with anything if you mute people.

Unfortunately, you often do. There's a messaging function to XBox Live which can be used to send messages (unless you go out of your way to disable that feature). As was mentioned above with TF2, some servers are full of visual triggers (porn sprays, etc.). Finally, what about putting up with having to mute people? I realize this point is where I stray into idealism, but is it so unreasonable to ask people to be civil?
Relatedly:

A truly equal society is not one where nobody is ever offended, its one where nobody fears offending other people, and where people can be offended and deal with it like adults.

I tend to agree, with just one caveat: that dealing with offense like adults includes a reasonable degree of self-censorship when a fellow human being has made it plain you're causing harm.

I think this thread has established that women aren't the only target of harassment, so I'm not sure I understand ElPatron's second point, nor the first one. (Is trying to play a game "cooperating"? Should we yield even more territory to the reprehensible few?)

If there is no "reward" for being an asshole, people won't do it.

Yes, but-- wouldn't a definition of reward include, for example, the satisfaction/emotional high of knowing someone heard you, and was probably hurt by it? That reward is still very much present in any system that allows perpetrators of harassment a voice.

I think it's naive to think they are doing it because they think it's okay. They are not bigots, they are simply people with a crowd and a free-pass to say everything without real-world repercussions.

This is certainly true for some of the offenders; regardless, instead of asking people to tolerate harassment, let's add some repercussions.


Finally, I want to thank everyone for their contributions thus far. I've been really pleasantly surprised by the carefully-written and on-topic posts and generally conversational (as opposed to confrontational) tone. [Let's contrast that, for example, with the unfortunate typical fare of the NYT comments section.] I'll ask of this thread no more than I'd ask of the community in general: please keep it civil and considerate, and keep sharing your thoughts. (I've learned a few things from the links already.)

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I gave you the proof you wanted and yet you just cherry pick my post and mention one thing out of the entirety of it.

I don't think I'm the one with the argument that's lacking here.

You keep bringing up male domination of the industry like it's a good thing and that women have brought this situation on themselves.
Again if the industry was more inclusive to women then more would become involved in it. Much like politics no?

I'm done talking with you, you are just trolling and not interested in having an actual conversation. You just misinterpret what people type everytime and not actually consider any of the factors or give benefit of the doubt.

Seriously how do you go from a radical new technology to which very few people actually had the knowledge and take the active risk of the time as "male domination of the industry like it's a good thing"? Really? How do you go from the smallest of groups actually being able to even create the product of video games to male dominated industry? Do you even factor or ask yourself on who was actually pursuing the education that caused them to be part of those groups responsible for the creation of Atari or Nintendo. Nevermind be in the actual position to be recruited to become part of that creation process. It isn't like people in the 70's and 80's had Linkedin or Monster.

I'm done responding to you because all you do is twist other people's words and drive yourself into your own personal bias that you love to stay in.

You said the article offered no proof of online abuse, so I gave you proof. Then you ignored it and decided to stick to your rant about Sarkeesian. I don't think I'm the one who is twisting words here?

Nintendo was a company founded in 1889 (not a typo) they tried various businesses before they were a video game company. They operated out of Japan. Now I'm just guessing here but who do you think managed to get jobs more easily in Japan in the late 70's.

I'll give you a hint: not women.

 

[A Weakgeek]

It easier to be a bloke gamer, I know. I've experienced it, pretending to be a guy does make it easier so I don't blame any girls who do.

This interests me. Ofcourse, it depends alot on what kind of games you play (Voice chat ofcourse is a thing on its own), but how often, and in what kind of situations do you need to pretend to be male online? Because I feel that whenever I play online, even though I chat alot with strangers, the gender never comes up. Never do I feel that something I say or do indicates that I'm male.

I've read studies that indicate that mmos are popular with girls and women. So I guess MMOs ,where you are more probable to spend more time socializing with the same people, it might come into play more often. I don't play alot of MMOs so maybe thats why I find the whole gender issue a bit weird.

It was very early on in my gaming days*, so just on a few rubbish old MMO's.
I actually discovered it by accident, because my sister had an account name with the name `pete` in it (a singer she liked back then) and when I used her account for something a lot of people just assumed my name was Pete.
So yeah, MMO's, more social things. I didn't do it for very long, because I found a lot of people saying they didn't know any female gamers, and I thought `yeah, cause they're all hiding!`.

*Ok, early on in my online gaming days.

Ok, that is perfectly understandable.

I used to have this "friend" who always complained getting bad treatment in ALL games, FPSs and the like. I asked her if she used a mic, she said no. I asked if she was flaunting in any way, she said no. So one time when I played with her, I saw the truth of things when she did start flaunting for attention, with a suggestive username and lots of "Ha! Got beaten by a girl." type of stuff. She went along with all the nice comments and offers of stuff, but immidiately when someone said something negative, she went defensive.

So after the game I asked what this was all about, she asked me something along the lines of "You want me to pretend to be a man?! Huh?". Because of this, I have this little unfair seed of doubt when ever women cry this stuff out. But I know she must have been the very small minority.

 

[Noetherian]

Most of the harassment people get isn't something planned or organized, it is usually the result of either saying something unpopular, performing poorly usually affecting the group, and other personal interactions. It is never as simple as the article writes or as the interviewers suggest.

Admittedly, I don't have any statistics on the most common types of harassment, but we're not talking about most harassment here. The article and this conversation try to address a very specific form of harassment that is exactly that simple: for no other reason than being female [or, say, having an accent/etc.], players are being insulted and harassed. I'm willing to believe anonymity may make some players unusually harsh towards the less skilled, which is a problem all its own, but I'm concerned that so many responses seem to suggest that examples like the Cross Assault incident were somehow deserved.

I mean okay great, you have all these sites always focused on the negative. How many sites are focused on the positive experiences? ... It stands out because it is the exception to the normal flow of the competition.

I've seen a lot of fansites for games, and in my experience positive stories are related on those. The Journey fan community is really enthusiastic about its good times (see e.g. Journey Stories [http://journeystories.tumblr.com/tagged/journey+stories] on tumblr). I guess we just tend to associate the enjoyment of gaming with particular games, whereas harassment transcends particular titles (no doubt to the relief of FPS publishers).
I also don't want the thread to lose sight of the fact that harassment is still a problem even though it is (I hope) the exception to a normal gaming experience. Even if you only get harassed one game out of twenty, that's too often.

 

[chadachada123]

Answer to online racism, harassment, bigotry, etc.:

make people accountable for what they say. Of course that requires you give up your anonymity.

Pick your poison.

I'd rather take Anonymity. The same anonymity that protects assholes also protects trolls that troll assholes, which I believe will become a larger force than the assholes in good time.

White knighting is still a very real force, and can be just as large of a force with anonymity.

Take away anonymity, and you'll have a ton of people only acting the way that they think society wants them to act, and I wouldn't call this a good change, especially because it will only bring resentment from these assholes.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Harassment against women is a problem though as those websites show. The articles don't 'drag everyone down' they address a very real problem. I don't want to misunderstand what you are saying as you appear to an issue with that so correct me if I'm wrong you are saying that what Bahktanian did was right because the girl needed to be able to put up with harassment and that women are to blame because they should be more picky who they play with.

To me that sounds like victim blaming.

How about some guys just learn not to be asshats? I guess that would be far too difficult.

 

[Noetherian]

-snip-

I may be misunderstanding you, but no, I don't think calling for a solution to the issues of harassment currently afflicting the videogame community is looking for an argument. What is the argument, exactly? Am I arguing that harassment exists and is a problem not just for its victims or perpetrators but the gaming community at large? Yes, I am, but I'm admittedly surprised that's a source of controversy.

I think this harassment is an obstacle to the legitimacy of videogames and I absolutely agree that something must be done differently. This thread has had a lot of useful suggestions already, although most of them are still suggestions for actions that can be taken by the victims of harassment.

As has been said before: this doesn't happen everywhere there's anonymity. Maybe what we need are more and better mods, until people get the message that those behaviors aren't acceptable. Maybe, as you suggest, we just need to help one another understand the behaviors that are expected in a public vs. private location -- I understand there's some serious cognitive dissonance in play when your room becomes (via e.g. XBox Live) a public space, where you're interacting with strangers who may not be comfortable with the kind of language you use around friends.

I've actually had mostly positive experiences with PUG's in MMO's, but the underlying argument in avoiding them if you want to avoid trouble still bothers me. Why should we accept that kind of barrier to entry for gaming? I'm all for making friends in-game, but you have to meet new people to do that, and where else can you but via PUG or open chat?

I like your metaphor with real life interaction-- the more mainstream gaming becomes, perhaps the more apt it will be-- and it gives me a thought. Not a solution, to my mind, but perhaps a good stepping stone. Where I live, at least, there are quiet neighborhoods and raucous ones, and you can do everything you need to do in either one (both have grocery stores, theaters, etc.). Right now, gaming isn't quite like that, because some multiplayer genres/games/etc. are only available to you if you're willing to put up with raucous (which often escalates to harassing) behavior. Some games get around this by having separate servers, and I know Halo actually includes matchmaking settings that let you choose the kind of verbal interaction you're looking for. (Unfortunately, my experience with Halo is that it usually takes a lot more time to find a group the less willing to be insulted you are.) Maybe what we need is a system of online neighborhoods, so the people who don't want to censor themselves can all play together. Maybe a more fair version would be to have a private, opt-in server that might cost a little extra. To me this sounds like skirting the issue, but it could certainly help alleviate immediate problems.

I certainly agree that even the most intelligent of forum conversations isn't enough to fix the problem, but I think we are at the point in discussion where getting more ideas (and trying to promote understanding of what's really the issue) will help. I know I take advantage of report features when I need to, but if videogames want to achieve that legitimacy we crave, we need to learn to self-regulate on an individual level. How often do people get banned from art galleries for harassing female patrons? I'm sure it's happened, but how many would describe that as "typical"?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

How often do people get banned from art galleries for harassing female patrons? I'm sure it's happened, but how many would describe that as "typical"?

If you listen to that BBC documentary I linked you can hear that he looks up some accounts that he made particularly awful harassment and were reported and he find that they are still active.

It's the view that XBOX Live in particular doesn't take sexual harassment seriously whereas someone who is racist is pretty much punished immediately. I know that Extra Credits met with them to try and improve things but I'm not entirely sure that has translated into practice.

 

[Noetherian]

I think I stated my point poorly: I meant to suggest how absurd it would be to think of sexual harassment as somehow an integral or deserved part of art appreciation, that victims ought to learn to deal with if they want to keep visiting art galleries. No, of course not; we expect people to behave with courtesy at art galleries, and in the truly rare instances when they do not, we have a system in place for their immediate removal pending permanent repercussions.

I haven't seen the documentary, but are you saying that actually these offenders aren't being properly dealt with? I'm admittedly less familiar with art gallery policing policies, but I know we're capable of keeping e.g. shoplifters from returning to commit a repeat offense. Also, again, how many of the offenders are still active? Is it a majority, is this behavior considered common? I'm afraid now that the comparison has had the unfortunate effect of belittling the problems in gaming, which are far more widespread (my intended point).

...XBOX Live in particular doesn't take sexual harassment seriously...

My understanding is that the EC guys' meeting with Microsoft was relatively recent, but hopefully with time that will prove meaningful.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Lol, "uncovers."

It's not covered up, hell it's not even thinly veiled.

 

[Khazoth]

I'm not going to comment on the Anita Sarkeesian part, because i'm sure everyone discerned from the other dozen posts on her that I think she is a sleezy scum bag who conned money out of stupid people.


The rest of the article I whole heartedly endorse, sure it paints the gaming community in a bad light.. But come on, the gaming community deserves the ire its getting for how it acts around the other gender. I think shame and/or punishment is the only way to make these monkeys act right.

 

[Prosis]

Article could have been a lot better. Depends too heavily on blogs and whatnot for info, and the Anita case isn't really a solid case either once you do a little digging.

Nonetheless, I'm glad it make it on the front page of New York Times. This is a serious problem. Someone should be able to speak their mind on the internet without their personal info being plastered everywhere. And I'd like to play an xbox live competitive game where I have more matches than trolls.

It needs to be addressed. Saying, "This is wrong, and you shouldn't do that," will never change anything. Bad publicity though; that will force game companies to properly monitor for imbeciles. It won't be easy, but its a start