Don't DESERVE?! What the fuck is the matter with you? They are human too! And it's not like they attacked any nation that doesn't deserve a good shitkicking.Frank_Sinatra_ said:
Poll: Obama Shutting Down Guantanamo Bay. Good or Bad?
- Thread starter Fingolfin High-King of the Noldor
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To a degree, that is correct. But by the standards of the international community and the Geneva Convention, they do get a trial afford to them to determine their guilt. Which is similar to our legal process. They are people, after all. Even war criminals have a trial.Frank_Sinatra_ said:
They were doing that, albeit slow as molasses. Too slow, as some of them were actually slowing down the process to trial just so they can get out for free.
What I am saying is they don't deserve the right to a fair trial, free lawyer, etc. that the American system allows it's citizens. Yes, they do deserve trial just without the rights that Americans are promised.CoziestPigeon said:
no emperical facts in your statement.CoziestPigeon said:
Im against guantanamo but I not going to make shit up to combat my issue with it.
you should try that.
Why's that? You're holding prisoners in a country that claims to fight for freedom, democracy, apple pie, is apparently heavily Christian (love thy neighbor) and that make a big deal out of using the legal system for the smallest of things.Frank_Sinatra_ said:
Surely, it would make sense if you treat people... decently?
Guantanemo Bay is not jus a prison, its a form of torture, so I think that it is against the prisoners basic human rights.
Keep saying that stuff. There still are a few tourists visiting the US that haven't been scared off, and I'm hoping that some of them will spend their dollars/pounds/euros/etc here in Canada instead if they decide that "foreigners don't deserve rights" rhetoric made visiting the US not worth the risk.Frank_Sinatra_ said:
-- Steve
Yes it makes sense but what I'm saying is they deserve a fair trial but not a full American trial. They deserve more than a military trial but not all of the American rights. That make sense?Booze Zombie said:
Why should they not receive the same rights as you? What makes them any less entitled to being treated humanely?Frank_Sinatra_ said:
I seriously have no idea what should be done. About 90% of all Guantanamo's info on it's people and such is classified to the public. I'm just gonna have to trust the president on this one because he has more info on the subject than I do (or anyone else here, unless you worked there).
ieatlions said:
What I am saying is you have the base idea but you do not get the rights of an American citizen if you just visit or are being held by our government. If you want these freedoms you need to be an American citizen. I can't just go into a country demanding to be treated like a citizen right when I get there.Booze Zombie said:
If America did things that way we would hand out free citizenship cards whenever someone came to the states.
Yes they are human but, NO they are not citizens so they don't get all the rights of a American citizen.
So if you, as an American citizen, are in a foreign country it's alright for their officials to throw you in jail without charge, deny you access to legal counsel, beat you silly, and dump your arse in an island camp without letting you see a judge or allowing you to contact your family?Frank_Sinatra_ said:
I'm a bit Kantian in my political philosophy; my measure of whether a policy is just or not is to see if it would be just to apply the policy to me. (Because, after all, it'll get back to me in some way or another eventually.)
-- Steve
Actually Yes, they can do that in another country. In America we do though put you in jail with purpose, but sticking to the other countries they can do that as long as you are not in the US Embassy.Anton P. Nym said:
cant quote fox news huh? curse you that was my most reliable source of information...... ohh wate, no it wasnt, my common sence is.McClaud said:
and ill post my credentials just as you have yours.
im a top level analist for the NSA and work on wire tapping American citizens E-mails to make sure there is nothing subversive in them. i could tell you more but then id have to kill you and everyone else reading this games forum :roll:
certianly i dont have to point out that just because you SAY your thus-n-so doesnt make it true. this is especialy obvious when your arguing that information gained from torture is totaly usless when common sence tells it it clearly isnt true. you havent refuted what i said, you just put up alot of words that look impressive untill you actualy spend a moment looking for a point and dont find one.
and frankly if you ARE actualy involved in the intell community than it should be more than obvious number 1) you wouldnt be on a games forum talking about it, and number 2) with your clearly wrong conclusions and blanket statments about how torture doesnt provide ANYTHING of value , you would be one of those people that OFFERED that 'bad advice' your trying to villify. again my common sence wispers in my ear that there ARE things our intell community knows that we cant/dont/wont talk about in ANY public venue so if you ARE part of now or were part of any time in the past of this intell community you wouldnt be allowed too talk about certian things anyhow, my point being that if your clame is true than your obviously being very ....... missleading at the least about what is and isnt used if only for securitys sake. in other wordes even if you KNEW as part of your work that a tortured prisoner gave us intell about the plot to bomb the subways in England and we twarted it, you couldnt talk about the details of it anyhow. you couldnt say ...... "well we got the information from Gitmo" becuse then the enemy would KNOW that you had broken certian of their allies there and ALL their operation that person may have known about would need to be changed. i dont need a degree from "www.makemeaspy.com" to know this bit of common sence.
now having said all this id like to say im sorry of my tone offends you its hard to put the fact that im grinning as i type and show that my post is ment as light banter more than a flaming attack on you though it is. i acutaly find some of what you say reasonable and dont at all concider you just another forum tard with one too many tom clancy books on your book shelf. my only real point to joining this chat at all is because i see the first X number of pages full of the flat out wrong statment that "torture doesnt work". im not at all one of those kinds of people that think our government and leaders are totaly worthless and wouldnt know a good idea if it bit them in the ass. im with reagan on this, trust but verify. i start out with the assumption that given the obvious drawbacks to torturing people if only because its illegal under US law and toss in the clear and unversaly bad immage it gives us around the world that our leaders must know SOMTHING we dont when they chose to continue the practice.
im not saying they are right ..... im saying WE dont have all the information to make an informed judgment and untill we get that information than we truly look like total fools any time we make blanket statments that 'torture doesnt work'. its a judgment if nothing else based on gut feelings and a distaste for torture (not to mention those fox articles you refered too) rather than cold hard facts.
ive provided a sound argument about why torture CAN work, no one has refuted it , even you because it cant be refuted. the only real argument it seems to me is this. is the information we get worth the price we pay? and
answer a solid "hell no"!
just to add to this, even being in an embassy doesnt allways work. most of you are prolly to young to remember the iran hostage crisis back in the late 70s (i was only 8 or 9 myself) but that all started by the Iranians overruning the US embassy and the hostages were all embassy personel.Frank_Sinatra_ said:
Americans can be, and ARE just beaten and tossed into jail cells in other nations on a pretty regular basis and there isnt much we can do about it. if you can get a visa at all, try walking into N korea and spiting on one of those posters of Kim and see what that gets you. this is a non issue from the gate especialy if you have never traveled beyond your secure little nest of 'civilized' nations. the world isnt allways a nice place and there ARE nations full of people with agendas that have nothing to do with law, or justice, or human rights. they arent 'just like us only missunderstood', they are barbarians. if you leave your bubble here in the west and actualy go to these places you will see just how true this really is.
What I'm trying to say is, if a country has laws, it should not matter if you're a citizen or not, you should be tried and proven guilty/innocent, like anyone else.Frank_Sinatra_ said: