Poll: Out of the big 3 (Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony), who is the most anit-consumer?

[Vendor-Lazarus]

I didn't really think this divide still existed in any larger form, but I now realize that it is just hiding under the surface for the time being.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1027450-Why-do-Console-Gamers-hate-mods-and-modding?page=1

Not really "hiding under the surface" when you can get asinine threads like this popping up.

The Only "asinine" thing I could find with that Title and Opening Post is the premise that console gamers hating mods came first, and therefor not incentivizing console makers to include and incorporate mods in a wider way.
That elevates console gamers too much. They obviously just follow the lead of their chosen fanboi and have had their opinion selected for them..

Anyhow, I think you missed my meaning about hardware fanbois entirely.

 

[NLS]

So, most of the Microsoft "issues" are mistakes done in the past and then corrected or improved in the current generation?

This list should be titled "Who WAS the most anti-consumer", because none of these points are relevant anymore.

 

[munx13]

Pretty close contest, however for me, the 360's launch puts Microsoft at the top.

They KNEW that their launch hardware was so crap that even a bad look could break it.
The majority of the ones coming off the assembly line wouldn't work. Yet they STILL SOLD IT, knowing damn well that most of them will break.

 

[CaitSeith]

It depends on the day of the week.

Nintendo
-Not nice to 3rd parties. Nintendo is notoriously not nice to 3rd party publishers

3rd Party Publishers aren't consumers.....

yes but slagging off 3rd parties can mean consumers are forced to buy another console/pc to play the games. This isn't nearly as bad as some of the other way these 3 companies fuck with customers, but it is still somewhat anti-consumer.

In an ideal world, a consumer would be able to play any game on any system.

There is a difference between being anti-consumer and failing to negotiate with other companies. The former implies hostility towards the idea of bringing the best value to the consumer for their money; the later is mere incompetence or bad luck.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You also think the refresh rate of animations doesnt matter just because a console developer told you (likely thinking of how they do not need to account for high refresh animations since the console can never do them) so I dont think your opinion on technology or fidelity can be trusted. But yes, any edge for either system was fairly small.

CoD is one of the biggest games out there. Doesn't mean it is well made or has competent engineers working on it. Sony pays less than AMD or Nvidia or IBM or Intel. I dont expect it to have first rate software or hardware people, it is not logical for that to be the case, especially since it is Japanese to boot. DELL isnt first rate either though.

At the time STALKER. Nowadays, I guess Total War, Men of War, and Ashes of the Singularity to varying degrees but it is mostly due to the gigantic difference in CPU power between even low end CPUs ant a console CPU. I am unsure if that is fair as a comparison.

And lol. Horizon Zero Dawn looks worse than Battlefield 1 at Ultra, has amazing animations but no special groundbreaking technology to get them, worse sound processing than 2004 games (this BTW goes for all modern PC Games, it isnt Sony's issue, hell if anything PS4 has better than PC due to the usage of TrueAudio). It has bland and mediocre AI and mid tier physics simulation. The performance isnt playable either. It wins because its popular, not because it has true technical merit. There is nothing special happening with it. It isnt even as efficient as id Tech 6 at utilizing the hardware. This isnt even an assault on the game, just its technology.

Again, what are you trying to prove? Not everything has to do with tech specs, there's a reason why Horizon had massive screenshot threads and most games do not. I already said PC games are the same game running at a higher resolution and framerates. I'd sure hope a PC version of a game looks better from a technical standpoint than a console game. Consoles can run those RTSs, the main thing is the interface/controls that makes console RTSs not really a thing.

CDPR pays less than most AAA devs. I guess, that's why they can't even do smooth and responsive character movement according to your logic. Oh, and STALKER can't be good either because they weren't paid enough. The New England Patriots can't assemble the best team when they don't pay their players as much as other teams... oh wait, what you pay people and what they actually produce are 2 completely different things.

Sony is not in the same business as AMD, Nvidia, IBM, or Intel. Who said Dell was first rate? What does it matter? What is the point of this comparison that is meaningless? Might as well be saying oranges are 2nd-rate apples.

Well lets look at it objectively. One engine has had one iteration and was made for one game (of course it can be used for more in the future). Its made by a studio that is known to be very good with technology, but not exceptional. Guerrilla Games are no id Software, nor are they 4A Games or Crytek. They would be same tier as DICE if it werent for the fact that DICE's influence can be seen on all console games and console exclusives.

As for... window dressing vs actual depth? What do you mean? Neither engine is the best in AI or physics. But those can be changed no matter the (modern) engine?

As for physical detail...you mean PBR? Every modern engine has that, and DICE are some of the pioneers along with 4A.

DICE is being put on a pedestal of technical prowess when they make the same game over and over again somehow making it buggier and buggier?

So, most of the Microsoft "issues" are mistakes done in the past and then corrected or improved in the current generation?

This list should be titled "Who WAS the most anti-consumer", because none of these points are relevant anymore.

Have you not used an Xbox One? It literally can't do anything out-of-the-box (I hope that has been remedied by now) because it was obvious the DRM stuff was ripped out last second. Thus, Microsoft THIS generation fully intended to force DRM on consumers. It also took a year for consumers to be able to have the ability to choose not to buy a Kinect if they wanted a Xbox One. What a company or anyone does in the past is how you predict what they will do in the future. Plus, Microsoft is still doing such anti-consumer stuff like requiring Gold membership to use fucking Internet Explorer along with 3rd-party paid services like Amazon and Hulu. You can't even record gameplay footage without a Gold membership. How has Microsoft "corrected" their anti-consumer business practices?

 

[the.chad]

To give some credit to Microsoft.
When the realized how wide-spread the RROD was - they bit the bullet and offered a full recall.

If you have a moment, here's an interesting read from a Microsoft Exec who was in the midst of it all

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-07-02-peter-moore-recounts-xbox-360-red-ring-of-death-saga


Now Sony on the other hand,
I'll never forget the story of the forced PS3 updates that removed support for Linux.
If I recall, did Sony try suing a gamer who was providing guides on how to install Linux onto the system post update?

 

[munx13]

To give some credit to Microsoft.
When the realized how wide-spread the RROD was - they bit the bullet and offered a full recall.

That's like a guy stabbing someone before giving them some bandages. They fully knew how bad the quality situation was because of how many consoles wouldn't work right off the assembly line. "Biting the bullet" and doing the right thing would have been to postpone the launch.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Animation has a lot to do with tech specs. If you take your precious Horizon devs and tell them that they can target a theoretically infinite frame rate, they *will* produce a better result than what you saw with Horizon Zero Dawn even if they make the same style of animations for the same game. That means an objective parameter. There is no subjectivity here. None at all, more is better.

Consoles can run Men of War and TW? To be fair, I think the Xbox One X can at Ultra low CPU settings. But the weaker ones can not.

And whether it can do it theoretically is a moot point in the end. My PC can curbstomp anything the POS scum at Sony or MS or Nintendo can make till 2022 but I cant play Horizon until (and if!) it gets an emulator. If it doesnt, it is mortal and an aberration against the gaming art form so its only you, the fans that suffer. If it does happen, all is well. Breath of the Wild is good on PC after all

There is a difference between game developers and hardware engineers. And we have results for both BTW. Sony and Nintendo and MS are pathetic. CDPR and GSC and 4A Games...are not.

DELL isn't first rate. Just maybe better than Sony . And Sony is a competitor (and partner) to all the companies I listed, it also has to use the same fabs and similar or same hardware. Just drop the bias, your hero Sony is not even decent level.


DICE is not put on a pedestal by me. They are better than Guerrilla Games, that is obvious for all but fanboys, but they aren't the Top End devs.


MS has the best mod support and the best emulation/backwards compatibility. All you said is correct, but those two facts make them better than Sony and Nintendo.

I don't see PC games having better animations than consoles games so...

Certain games in their current state can't run on consoles because the devs wouldn't be utilizing most of a console CPU's processing power. Consoles are hardly lacking the power to play such games.

Sure your PC can curbstomp console hardware but you're still playing the same games as I am.

Let me know when CDPR and 4A actually make a good game, then get back to me on that. I haven't played a STALKER nor will I because it's not my cup of tea so it might be great but I'm not going to say it's not as I haven't played it unlike a Witcher and Metro game. The fact you mention CDPR and 4A with GSC doesn't lend me to believe GSC was anything great either, it also did take the community to fix a bunch of shit in their games too. I'd take Guerrilla over DICE in FPSs as out of the demos/betas I've played of the Battlefields and Killzones, I've liked Killzone more as the shooting is pretty bad in Battlefield. I've never bought a BF or KZ because neither have leaning or sliding but I'd rather play KZ if you made me play one of them. Then the only game DICE has made that's good is Mirror's Edge and Guerrilla with Horizon, and Horizon is better than Mirror's Edge, thus Guerrilla is the better dev.

Who the fuck cares about Dell? Why are you still giving your opinion on Dell? Nobody cares what you think of Dell nor does it have any relevance whatsoever. Sony is not a competitor to AMD, Intel, Nvidia, or IBM. I don't care about Sony's hardware capabilities like I wouldn't care about Dell's hardware capabilities if I bought a Dell desktop/laptop, I just care that a console works and doesn't break, that's pretty much it. The reason I've chosen Sony consoles is because I have access to more games that I like than if I had bought an Xbox or Nintendo system.

Sony has done BC every generation but this one because the PS4 just can't play PS3 games. I'd give the edge of BC to Sony currently (has an Xbox console ever been fully BC supported?) with the next gen being a pretty big determining factor because there should be no reason PS5 shouldn't have BC.

Now Sony on the other hand,
I'll never forget the story of the forced PS3 updates that removed support for Linux.
If I recall, did Sony try suing a gamer who was providing guides on how to install Linux onto the system post update?

I can't believe I forgot the Linux thing for PS3, added to the 1st post. Sony even lost a class-action lawsuit with that. Funny thing is that it probably hurt Sony more than consumers (as I'm guessing less than 1% used it) but still removing features from your product is bullshit.

To give some credit to Microsoft.
When the realized how wide-spread the RROD was - they bit the bullet and offered a full recall.

That's like a guy stabbing someone before giving them some bandages. They fully knew how bad the quality situation was because of how many consoles wouldn't work right off the assembly line. "Biting the bullet" and doing the right thing would have been to postpone the launch.

This.

 

[Rangaman]

Or forcing players to buy GBAs to play Zelda: Four Swords Adventures multiplayer?

I don't think you understand how multiplayer gaming worked in the past...

The fuck? There were plenty of other multiplayer games on the GameCube that didn't require you to buy an entirely different system just to play multiplayer. Or are you confusing this game with the original Four Swords?

 

[the.chad]

To give some credit to Microsoft.
When the realized how wide-spread the RROD was - they bit the bullet and offered a full recall.

That's like a guy stabbing someone before giving them some bandages. They fully knew how bad the quality situation was because of how many consoles wouldn't work right off the assembly line. "Biting the bullet" and doing the right thing would have been to postpone the launch.

Maybe so, but if the article I linked has any merit at all, to make a snap decision to fix a billion dollar issue I think deserves some praise.

 

[munx13]

To give some credit to Microsoft.
When the realized how wide-spread the RROD was - they bit the bullet and offered a full recall.

That's like a guy stabbing someone before giving them some bandages. They fully knew how bad the quality situation was because of how many consoles wouldn't work right off the assembly line. "Biting the bullet" and doing the right thing would have been to postpone the launch.

Maybe so, but if the article I linked has any merit at all, to make a snap decision to fix a billion dollar issue I think deserves some praise.

It would be naive to believe that they did it for any other reason than to save their own ass.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

i am baffled as to why anybody still let's Microsoft into their homes

for all the others' faults, they pale in comparison to Microsoft. Am glad I jumped ship when I could

To be fair, we wouldn't blame gamers for saying the same thing about Sony and Nintendo.

 

[Chewster]

They're all somewhat equal in my books. Just depends on how you like being screwed around. I voted Nintendo though because Nintendo fanboys are easily the worst of the bunch (even worse than PC Master Race'rs IMHO) and Nintendo has been at this the longest so by now they should know better.

That people will jump up to defend the shitty behaviour of any major media company is utterly baffling to me. We might as well just go full Jennifer Government and start getting brand tattoos already.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You are naive enough to think a console can compete with PC Games visually... so honestly I do not think you are qualified to talk about animations. Do the words level of detail, ambient occlusion or anisotropic filtering mean anything to you? I am almost certain you have no idea so why should your opinion matter?

"Certain games in their current state can't run on consoles because the devs wouldn't be utilizing most of a console CPU's processing power. Consoles are hardly lacking the power to play such games."

... OK explain to me how would an 8 core 1.6 Ghz CPU with 1/2 of the IPC of Ryzen and very slow, low bandwidth cache run things like Total War or Men of War? Please, explain this to me. What level of engineering magic is needed for this to work without the game's complexity being cut down.

You do know even the budget CPUs are nearly 2 times faster (effectively) than that CPU? Please, show your computer knowledge you claim to have. Tell me how it will work.

I played Bayonetta and Vanquish. Very good games, especially Vanquish (to me) but not as good as STALKER (lol), nor Witcher, nor Metro. What now?

Also you are ignoring context again. I mentioned 4A, CDPR and GSC for technological merit. For what they can do with technology. What you PERSONALLY think of their games (and you havent played STALKER) is irrelevant. They are better than Guerilla games at that. Deal with it. So is DICE, their tech has affected all console and PC Games. Its certain some of the core of the engine for Horizon is inspired by DICE's efforts with Frostbite. Stop the vapid, empty fanboyism, some things *are* objective.

"Sony has done BC every generation but this one because the PS4 just can't play PS3 games. I'd give the edge of BC to Sony currently (has an Xbox console ever been fully BC supported?) with the next gen being a pretty big determining factor because there should be no reason PS5 shouldn't have BC."

Xbox One can play Xbox 360 games and some Xbox original games. It can also mimic some of what PCs can do and play older games at higher FPS, quality, or resolution. Your bias is showing again.

PS5 will have backwards compatibility depending only on whether they go for AMD X86-64 again. But also, the PS3 can be emulated by a PC, why cant the PS4 do it? I can play Demons Souls on my PC these days and it does it fairly well to boot. Excuses for talent-less software engineers...

I said there's no PC games that push graphics so much that it makes console games look "last-gen". Where's a PC game where there's a big enough gap from say Watch Dogs PS4 to PS3? PC versions just add some more detail and higher framerates, the increased detail does not "change the game" like say the difference between aforementioned Watch Dogs' versions or Shadow of Mordor as well. I know what all those terms mean and they basically just can add more detail, the ground looking a bit sharper does not "change the game".

RTSs are dependent on fast single cores and don't take advantage of multiple CPU cores so, of course, a console will be lacking in CPU power when most of its CPU power is ignored. RTSs ignore most of the power of the Ryzen too.

You overrate narrative in games so that doesn't surprise me. If the game isn't fun to PLAY, then what's the point? I can watch it on Youtube if the narrative is indeed something really great. You put certain devs on a pedestal for technical merits when the devs you mentioned make buggy games. CDPR can't even do pathing AI. I'm taken out of world of Witcher and Metro quite often because of technical issues vs that of Horizon.

The PS2 and PS3 were fully backward compatible, no Xbox system has been, that's just a fact. I guess Naughty Dog wasted a year of time getting TLOU to run on PS4 when PS4 can just emulate it. PC can only emulate about a quarter of PS3 games so why can't PC do it? Your logic never makes any sense.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Spoiler

Spoiler

Why not be less biased and admit that Sony is simply not that competent? You already *KNOW* Sony has absolutely pathetic hardware engineers compared to the industry standard, why should we assume their software and security experts are good at their job? They are likely third rate. I am willing to bet the average knowledge, education, and experience at Sony is very much inadequate and quite cheap.

I agree that it is usually the consumer/user's fault for such incidents...but lets be honest. Occam's Razor applied here points the blame on Sony as well.

Gaming is about software, not hardware. It's actually bad to have your hardware different than the competition even if it's better as we saw with PS3. All you have to do is stick to the common industry architecture and at least be on the same power level as everyone else, and your system will be fine. Sony only has to make hardware on the same level as Dell "makes" hardware; assembling other people's components into a box. Even PC exclusive games hardly ever push graphics nowadays when they have more powerful hardware to work with. "Console" games push graphics more than PC exclusives now with the PC version just running at higher resolutions and framerates.

Again, I blamed Sony in opening post for getting hacked, what else do you want me to do?

Just stop talking. It's like listening to someone blame a rape victim. Sony's security is poor. I don't remember ever having other accounts stolen.

You don't know how it got stolen so it could've been a number of things, it could've your email got hacked especially if you ever sign up at a site with that email address, then use the same password for that site as your email's password. Thus, if someone hacks that site, they now have access to your email. Like most things, it's a case-by-case basis. I don't have a problem putting blame on anyone as long as there's some kind of proof. Even most company hacks aren't really the failure of that company's security, it's usually some employee that's being stupid that allows the hacker easy access behind all the security protocols; thus, most hacks are people hacks vs security hacks.

Why do you think the PS3's hardware is better than the Xbox 360's? Sure it had a faster CPU (not even for all possible cases BTW) but its GPU prowess was objectively inferior. And its RAM segmentation would lead to latency no matter how good you are. In all honesty, it was about equal in hardware power between X360 and PS3.

Then why is Sony so terrible at Software?
Why are they worse than even DELL at Hardware? You didnt answer me at all, you just are trying to deflect.

Just admit it. Sony can not do software not hardware. They can do nothing.

""Console" games push graphics more than PC exclusives now with the PC version just running at higher resolutions and framerates."

Is that why console games use medium settings?

Funny how Nintendo has these trends at constantly failing at the same thing over and over again.

Oh you mean like Sonys crappy security failing over and over again right?

To be fair Yoshi, Nintendo are even worse than Sony at both Software and Hardware. I am almost certain there are no engineers left there.

There is no ambition with them at all. If it wasn't for Nvidia's guidance they would have nothing all generation as they simply lack the talent or ability to make it.

General tasking was slower and far more cumbersome on Cell architecture, but its single precision floating point specs surpassed modern i7?s [http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ps3-playstation-3-linux-john-carmack,10035.html] at the time. Seeing as how games still mostly use SP, it was ultimately a great advantage if developers took the time to make it one. This is why a lot of higher end PS3 exclusives looked ?busier? and more visually complex than anything else on console, or even PC outside of RTS stuff. Things like Killzone 2, especially the mp, God of War 3?s titans, Uncharted?s dynamic object traversal and procedural terrain, etc. were far beyond what was ever done on 360, regardless of how much of it was due to the developers of hardware. Stuff like native 7.1 LPCM audio was also much appreciated.

But yeah, especially now the benefits of Cell have been overshadowed by the inefficiencies of its architecture; it was an exceptional number cruncher but ultimately not worth all the effort to yield the best results for most practical applications.

You do realize there is a lot more to a CPU/GPU than Single Precision Floating Point? The CELL CPU has an advantage over the older Xeon but it is not enough to offset the GPU advantage of the Xbox 360 and the latency issues it has with its RAM split. Of course I will grant you, it depends on what the game is, in some situations the PS3 can win, especially if you code for all its strengths and around all its weaknesses.

As for it going up against PCs... the PS3 launched in late 2006. By March 2007 there was an FPS game outside its possible scope on PC, made on a small budget.

Funny how Nintendo has these trends at constantly failing at the same thing over and over again.

Oh you mean like Sonys crappy security failing over and over again right?

Oh noes!!! Sony's social media accounts got hacked this year.

Why do you think the PS3's hardware is better than the Xbox 360's? Sure it had a faster CPU (not even for all possible cases BTW) but its GPU prowess was objectively inferior. And its RAM segmentation would lead to latency no matter how good you are. In all honesty, it was about equal in hardware power between X360 and PS3.

Then why is Sony so terrible at Software?
Why are they worse than even DELL at Hardware? You didnt answer me at all, you just are trying to deflect.

Just admit it. Sony can not do software not hardware. They can do nothing.

""Console" games push graphics more than PC exclusives now with the PC version just running at higher resolutions and framerates."

Is that why console games use medium settings?

PS3 exclusives looked a bit better than 360 exclusives IMO. Whichever system that did have an edge, it wasn't by much at all. PS3's architecture definitely hurt it with regards to multiplatform games.

What are you going on about? Sony can't make software but is one of the biggest publishers out there? Dell makes better hardware than Sony when both do the exact same thing? Plus, Sony has never made getting to a hard drive as difficult as some of Dell's laptop models that put the hard drive under the motherboard without a hatch on the bottom.

Name a PC exclusive game that fully takes advantage of PC's better hardware that can't be run on a console? Funny how a console exclusive can take home most technically impressive game of the year. Or that the best exclusive PC game last year, DOS2, can be easily run on a console and we'll almost certainly get a console release. Not that it really matters much as graphics don't make games great, but go on about your precious graphics while everyone over here is having fun...

You also think the refresh rate of animations doesnt matter just because a console developer told you (likely thinking of how they do not need to account for high refresh animations since the console can never do them) so I dont think your opinion on technology or fidelity can be trusted. But yes, any edge for either system was fairly small.

CoD is one of the biggest games out there. Doesn't mean it is well made or has competent engineers working on it. Sony pays less than AMD or Nvidia or IBM or Intel. I dont expect it to have first rate software or hardware people, it is not logical for that to be the case, especially since it is Japanese to boot. DELL isnt first rate either though.

At the time STALKER. Nowadays, I guess Total War, Men of War, and Ashes of the Singularity to varying degrees but it is mostly due to the gigantic difference in CPU power between even low end CPUs ant a console CPU. I am unsure if that is fair as a comparison.

And lol. Horizon Zero Dawn looks worse than Battlefield 1 at Ultra, has amazing animations but no special groundbreaking technology to get them, worse sound processing than 2004 games (this BTW goes for all modern PC Games, it isnt Sony's issue, hell if anything PS4 has better than PC due to the usage of TrueAudio). It has bland and mediocre AI and mid tier physics simulation. The performance isnt playable either. It wins because its popular, not because it has true technical merit. There is nothing special happening with it. It isnt even as efficient as id Tech 6 at utilizing the hardware. This isnt even an assault on the game, just its technology

.

Your comments are rather peculiar. Is there a tally somewhere of all of Battlefield 1?s technical merits? Historically I?ve been under the impression that Frostbite is more about window dressing than actual depth, which is why it manages to look so good. Contrast that to a Thunderjaw [https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/296493/Making_Horizon_Zero_Dawns_Machines_feel_like_living_creatures.php] from Horizon, which alone took 18 months to get working in-game from initial sketch. I highly doubt any game asset from Battlefield 1 has that kind of physical detail, but feel free to prove me wrong.

Well lets look at it objectively. One engine has had one iteration and was made for one game (of course it can be used for more in the future). Its made by a studio that is known to be very good with technology, but not exceptional. Guerrilla Games are no id Software, nor are they 4A Games or Crytek. They would be same tier as DICE if it werent for the fact that DICE's influence can be seen on all console games and console exclusives.

As for... window dressing vs actual depth? What do you mean? Neither engine is the best in AI or physics. But those can be changed no matter the (modern) engine?

As for physical detail...you mean PBR? Every modern engine has that, and DICE are some of the pioneers along with 4A.

You?re comparing apples to oranges. Of course studios like Dice, id, Crytek are different than GG; they make multiplatform engines. As such, they are meant to operate efficiently and yield good results across a variety of hardware. PC obviously can take advantage of all the bells and whistles the engines offer, but how well have the developers managed to leverage any of it?

Guerrilla built Decima from scratch, and Horizon is a huge iteration beyond what it started with in Killzone Shadow Fall. A customized engine means you can code more ?to the metal? on the given hardware platform as well. Kojima Productions is also using it for Death Stranding, which again is a PS4 exclusive. I mentioned on the last page that what GG did with the machines in Horizon is a far better utilization of engine tech than what I?ve seen from any recent game from the developers you mentioned.

Decima has its limitations but again, what Dice, id, 4A or Crytek game lately has gotten this kind [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y8u7MvuArA]of technical praise [http://www.eurogamer.net/amp/digitalfoundry-2017-horizon-the-frozen-wilds-is-an-unmissable-tech-showcase]?