Poll: Paris Brown, should she have gone?

[cookyy2k]

Ok, so for those who haven't heard about this (aren't from the UK). Last year a new position called a "police and crime commissioner" was brought in to have an elected official, well wiki can sum it up better than I:

The core functions of Police and Crime Commissioners are to secure the maintenance of an efficient and effective police force within their area, and to hold the Chief Constable to account for the delivery of the police and crime plan. Police and Crime Commissioners will be charged with holding the police fund (from which all policing of the area is financed) and raising the local policing precept from council tax. Police and Crime Commissioners will also be responsible for the appointment, suspension and dismissal of the Chief Constable.

These were all elected for the first time last year. The police and crime commissioners can also appoint a so called "youth police and crime commissioner" so act as sort of an ambassador between police and young adults and to help with policing strategies in areas of high youth antisocial behavior.

The first one appointed was 17 year old Paris Brown. Yesterday the papers reported on a bunch of tweets she posed when (according to her ) around 14 years of age. I'll spoiler them so not to take up too much space. Also the censoring of obscenity isn't me, it's the media and I'm not going to extrapolate which one as that would be my guess and not the facts:

Spoiler

I really wanna make a batch of hash brownies

Spoiler

I'm either really fun friendly and inclusive when I'm drunk or Im am antisocial, racist, sexist, embarrassing ******. Often its the latter.

Spoiler

Im getting so drunk this Saturday, so painfully and oh so unattractively drunk.

Spoiler

Been drinking since half 1 and riding baby walkers down the hall at work oh my god I have the best job ever!!

Spoiler

Right either there are owls outside my hours or my neighbors dont know how to **** quietly

Spoiler

Worst part about being single is coming home from a party/night out horney as **** and having to sleep alone.

Spoiler

I dont condone violence but Im so pleased my brother thumped that fat little **** that gave his tiny little friend a black eye.

Spoiler

Im on so many prescribed pills atm its beautiful, I feel so chilled and relaxed and so so lightheaded

Spoiler

Faggots played knock dwn ginger @ my house 3 times. 3rd time I hid behind my door & opened it right as the **** went to run, HA na u ****

Spoiler

Everyone on made in Chelsea looks like a ******* fag

Spoiler

I can speak ******* english its the illegals on the other end that cant

Spoiler

OH MY GOD WILL YOU PIKEYS STOP NICKING THE ******* TRAIN TRACK METAL im on a ******* replacement bus, ******* stupid moronic ****

There were a few debates on if she should stay in the job mainly one side said she was young and made a silly mistake, the other saying these comments basically made her position untenable. She resigned today after it was announced she was being investigated by the police for the comments. Since the media and public have take one of three stances either "good now let's get someone who can do the job in", "good, now scrap the job it's a waste of tax payer's money" or "the poor girl has been hounded out over something she did when younger".

I personally fit into the 2nd option. Her tweets were 3 years ago when she was younger yes but her choices of language and irresponsibility had made her position totally untenable, if she meant it or not the illegals comment has been taken as racist and her fag comments as homophobic, that leaves her in a position where she cannot fulfill her role as an ambassador. I also think we just don't need the position to exist, it comes with a £15k salary out of the police budget. Also if they had given me or anyone I know who is responsible the job at 17 we'd have had no better idea than anyone else what to do about the antisocial boozed up teen population because we don't understand them, and if you give the job to one of them you can guarantee irresponsibility from them. So I think it's a waste of tax payer money.

So anyways hopefully I've described the situation well enough for you good people to form an opinion and have a good olde fashioned debate.

 

[BathorysGraveland2]

Seems pathetic to me. Those comments are 3 years old. That's plenty of time for someone's opinions and views to change (hopefully for the better), not to mention she made them at age 14, not exactly the age where you are a bastion of intellect and responsibility. I sit firmly in that third camp here.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

There is a reason juvenile records (outside of felonies) are sealed once the person turns 18. Teenagers, for want of a better word, are idiots. They don't think "Gee, I should not post that on Twitter/Facebook, because it will still be available in the future when I've matured". You can say she was an idiot, and you'd be right. But 3 years makes a huge difference. You (and by "you", I mean anyone in favor of forcing a resignation/firing her) are basically saying a senior in high school should be punished for something they said as a freshman. No. Just..no.

 

[cookyy2k]

There is a reason juvenile records (outside of felonies) are sealed once the person turns 18. Teenagers, for want of a better word, are idiots. They don't think "Gee, I should not post that on Twitter/Facebook, because it will still be available in the future when I've matured". You can say she was an idiot, and you'd be right. But 3 years makes a huge difference. You (and by "you", I mean anyone in favor of forcing a resignation/firing her) are basically saying a senior in high school should be punished for something they said as a freshman. No. Just..no.

See, that's the attitude I see a lot from the people who think she should stay and everyone was making too big a deal of it. Her boss tried that to save from firing her "all kids post stuff like this on twitter" and "everyone's parents would be embarrassed if they saw what their kid posts on social networks". I wasn't an idiot when I was a teenager, I didn't post all sorts of rubbish everywhere. That argument does a disservice to teenagers.

The main point behind her having to go isn't really a "punishment" for having posted it, more once it came out her position became untenable. Plus the fact she's still being investigated by the police, so could rack up some sort of record.

 

[uchytjes]

I have far too many tangents I can go off on right now that I don't know what to do, so I'll just list them and and let you fill in the rest.
[spoiler = possible tangents I can go on]1. "Damned media getting in peoples business..."

2. "Did they even do a background check?"

3. "People can change, teenagers especially"

4. "Why do kids complain so much now!?"

5. "Wait... she was sexually promiscuous at that age?"

6. "Ugh... kids and alcohol."

7. "Drugs? Why..."

8. "I blame the parents"

9. "I blame the kids"

10. "I blame society"

11. "I blame the government"

12. "It must be different in the UK"

13. "Its not like this at all in the US"
[/spoiler]
So many tangents so little time...

Anyway, This is why I REALLY dislike most news media and dredging up stuff from the past in general. People change overtime, especially teenagers. I really hate myself and what I thought when I was 14 and I expect most others share the same sentiment.

 

[JoJo]

I'm not sure if she should have lost the job or not but being investigated over those tweets by the police is nothing short of a waste of time and money. What possible benefit to society would there be for her prosecution over a few offensive comments or spurious references to drugs? I wish our police force would prioritise their limited resources on more serious crime than silly shit like this, and perhaps we could get a modicum of free speech back at the same time /rant.

 

[Lionsfan]

Shit I hope nobody goes through the stuff I posted when I was 14 years old. Or even some of the crap I talked about when I was 18

Think this is a little bit overblown

 

[Evil Smurf]

We were all little shits at 14. She has matured by now.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

There is a reason juvenile records (outside of felonies) are sealed once the person turns 18. Teenagers, for want of a better word, are idiots. They don't think "Gee, I should not post that on Twitter/Facebook, because it will still be available in the future when I've matured". You can say she was an idiot, and you'd be right. But 3 years makes a huge difference. You (and by "you", I mean anyone in favor of forcing a resignation/firing her) are basically saying a senior in high school should be punished for something they said as a freshman. No. Just..no.

Unfortunately she was 17 when she got the job so the 18 year seal-off wouldn't have affected her anyway.

 

[Lord Garnaat]

If she acts the same at 17 as she did at 14, then yes I believe they had every right to fire her. As a holder of an official position, especially one connected with the police, she is held to a certain standard of professionalism. These messages aren't just crude, they're also racist, profane, and blatantly admit to performing illegal behavior. Considering she straight-out confessed to using drugs, I would even argue that the police should keep an eye on her from now on, in order to ensure she doesn't again.

On the other hand, people in this thread are correct: it has (allegedly) been years since those tweets were made, and she could have drastically changed by then. If she has, then I believe that her case demands more review, as her past mistakes may not necessarily affect her future performance. Who knows, she may have become a model citizen since then - if so then I see no reason for her not to keep her job.

 

[Zombie Sodomy]

I'm on the "who gives a fuck" team. She drank, smoked pot(or at least ate it), and cussed a lot. I fail to see why that matters. I also hadn't realized twitter was old enough for this stuff yet.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I think it's ridiculous to bring 3-year-old tweets into it and I don't think they should have had any impact on whether or not she kept the position. For a start, it's social media, not everything is representative of your actual attitudes and feelings and often you exaggerate things for comic effect. Secondly she was 14, and thirdly, how you act in a position of responsibility can be entirely different from how you act casually.

Sure, if she acts the same way now and holds the same attitudes even when acting as a whateversioner, she should be fired. But this assumes that 1. she acts the same professionally as she does casually, and 2. everything she said on Twitter was true. Neither of which are safe to assume.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

snip

All of which falls flat on its face when you look at how social media is being scrutinized as part of a large portion of job application processes today. The precedent is already there to consider those things when examining the character of an applicant.

Everyone who says "I was an idiot at 14 and I turned out fine" is actually not making any point at all. We have no idea how hireable or competent you are. Not once have I or any intelligent person I know put details of "dumb shit we did at 14" on the internet.

Especially not on a site whose sole purpose is to put your words in front of other people's eyeballs.

Especially not when the internet news reports stories about internet profiles are being examined by potential employers once a month.

And my opinion is that employers are being stupid when they examine social media for evidence of actual behaviour and moreover that they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Regardless of how intelligent it is to indicate you are doing drugs publicly. I have put things on my Facebook that any Christian employer would probably not hire me for, and I consider myself moderately intelligent. None of my profile is available to the public and I wouldn't add a prospective employer if there was any chance they could see my personal information. But none of it would be an indication of how well I would do a job, it's mostly sarcastic comments about disasters or religion. If an employer used the information on there to evaluate how well I would perform as an employee, they would be cheating themselves out of a possible decent employee.

So basically I'm saying it's my opinion that it shouldn't matter and you're saying for practical reasons it does, which [Captcha: frankly my dear] aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

There is a reason juvenile records (outside of felonies) are sealed once the person turns 18. Teenagers, for want of a better word, are idiots. They don't think "Gee, I should not post that on Twitter/Facebook, because it will still be available in the future when I've matured". You can say she was an idiot, and you'd be right. But 3 years makes a huge difference. You (and by "you", I mean anyone in favor of forcing a resignation/firing her) are basically saying a senior in high school should be punished for something they said as a freshman. No. Just..no.

Unfortunately she was 17 when she got the job so the 18 year seal-off wouldn't have affected her anyway.

I know. I was just using that as a launch-off for my point, which was that you can't hold a teenager to the same standards of conduct as you would a mature adult, because generally, the teenager will be less mature. I'm not saying all teenagers are the same, but look at it this way. There are a lot of 19-21 year olds who are, for want of a better word, party animals. Should we punish them for that behavior years down the line, regardless of how they conduct themselves when they mature further?

 

[Zombie Sodomy]

She drank, smoked pot(or at least ate it), and cussed a lot. I fail to see why that matters.

She was 14. It isn't just "dumb shit you do at 14" when you are getting blasted off your ass and using illegal drugs at 14.

I'm not saying "she was 14 and stupid" like everyone else seems to be. I'm saying I honestly don't care. I wouldn't care if she fucked a horse while smoking pot in the middle of the House of Commons last week. I simply don't give a shit what she or pretty much anyone else does in their spare time.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

There is a reason juvenile records (outside of felonies) are sealed once the person turns 18. Teenagers, for want of a better word, are idiots. They don't think "Gee, I should not post that on Twitter/Facebook, because it will still be available in the future when I've matured". You can say she was an idiot, and you'd be right. But 3 years makes a huge difference. You (and by "you", I mean anyone in favor of forcing a resignation/firing her) are basically saying a senior in high school should be punished for something they said as a freshman. No. Just..no.

Unfortunately she was 17 when she got the job so the 18 year seal-off wouldn't have affected her anyway.

I know. I was just using that as a launch-off for my point, which was that you can't hold a teenager to the same standards of conduct as you would a mature adult, because generally, the teenager will be less mature. I'm not saying all teenagers are the same, but look at it this way. There are a lot of 19-21 year olds who are, for want of a better word, party animals. Should we punish them for that behavior years down the line, regardless of how they conduct themselves when they mature further?

It depends on the job, in theory most employers wouldn't discriminate against someone with a 'rambunctious' past. The reality however, those with wild backgrounds can and have been passed over, especially when there is a large pool of prospective employees to choose from.

However an ambassador for the police should be held to higher standards, for example in New Zealand any sort of drink driving conviction will automatically disqualify you from enrolling to become a police officer. Her tweets are a little more ambiguous since they are just her talking about the abuse of drugs rather than an actual conviction but there are apparently a number of them and were posted in a public forum, wherein lies the problem.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

I remember the epic mistakes I made when I was 14. Like that time I didn't level STR with my Argonian character in Oblivion, so by the time mountain lions came onto the scene I was so weak I couldn't kill a single one and died in two hits anyway. Or that time I blew myself up with the boomshot while last man standing on the final round of a tied game of GOW2. Or that time I bought the Prince of Persia reboot. Man, I was such a rebel.
Tl;Dr: Not all teens are fucktards and they should have found one of the few that wasn't a fucktard. Plus, why does that position even exist?
Edit:

I'm not saying "she was 14 and stupid" like everyone else seems to be. I'm saying I honestly don't care. I wouldn't care if she fucked a horse while smoking pot in the middle of the House of Commons last week. I simply don't give a shit what she or pretty much anyone else does in their spare time.

Yeah, cause you, the tax payer, are totally not paying for them to do that shit.

 

[Bertylicious]

That stuff all looks pretty tame. It's kind of sad that a young person has lost their job over nonsense.

 

[Happiness Assassin]

Just goes to show that anything you put online can and will be used against you. Vetting processes in the future are going to be a nightmare.

Helpful Advice: If you plan on friending your boss on facebook, you may want to get rid of all those posts about how you hate your job. Had this happen to friend of mine.

 

[Therumancer]

Okay, well, I'm going to be blunt about a few things that people probably one like. For starters I think the entire idea of a "police and crime commissioner" is absolutly ridiculous in of itself. It sounds like the kind of bureaucratic stupidity that the UK engages in mockery of itself for. Not to mention probably getting in the way of the real police doing their job. Of course give the US time and we'll probably one up it with something even dumber.

The idea of bringing kids into police to act as "ambassadors" is an old idea, but at the same time the purpose is typically to try and bridge a generation gap and address youth issues. This seems to be the basic idea behind the role Paris was doing. The thing is that she's supposed to be there to bridge a gap to help deal with so called "antisocial behavior" in her job description, not to act as a role model and paragon of virtue. The idea is to have someone that the police and the youth both trust. If she acts like a rowdy kid, that's kind of the point since that's who you want her to deal with. She's not supposed to be some kind of "model citizen" to parade around and show kids and say "be like her".

Let's be blunt here, anyone who has been on a message board or X-box 360 is going to hear comments just like what she made. It probably shouldn't be a news flash to anyone but homosexuals and illegal/poorly assimilated immigrants are not well loved, especially by the youth. Both represent contreversial issues that have most of the western first world divided 50-50. If you want her to be indicative of the youth, you have to expect her to have or at least reflect *gasp* the ideas of the youth. The big question in this paticular case is if you'd trust her to say go to the police if she ran into or heard about a group of other kids deciding to say beat a gay to brutally and record it on their cellphones to post on the internet, as opposed to leaving it at a verbal/attitude level. Perhaps even more importantly, does she have the abillity to perhaps intervene and defuse/keep an eye on the situation so the police don't have to get involved to begin with?

While the media of course glamorizes it, perhaps the best US "fantasy" examples of the type of job this seems to be from the description are things like say "The Mod Squad" or "21 Jump Street" albiet she's not undercover in the same way. The thing is you don't want a good two shoes doing that job because the idea is to build a bridge, not try and present a sort of role-model of your ideal youth in hopes others will emulate it, which is just going to continue to maintain a sort of barrier.

Speaking for myself, it seems like the people running the program haven't even read their own mission statement going by the information above. On the other hand if they believed they couldn't trust Paris to intervene or inform when nessicary, or doubted her abillity to do so, then that would be a reason to dump her. To be honest everything that's negative from her twitter actually kind of reinforces why she'd fit in with that job if she is trusted, because that's EXACTLY the kind of crowd she's in the job to build a bridge with.

I'll also add as an aside that the screwed up thing about any kind of police, or high end security job, is that it leads to the people doing those jobs having to quickly face reality and that generally means becoming exactly what liberal idealists try and avoid facing. In most of the western first world you hear about how cops are racist, "homophobic", politically incorrect, intolerant of immigrants (illegal or otherwise), etc... that has been an issue pretty much forever. The thing isn't that bigots gravitate towards police or certain kinds of security work, but that the job makes them what they are. When you have the authority, job, and resources to peak behind the curtain and see how people are when society as a whole isn't watching, it changes you. It's bad enough for regular cops and security, but really telling when you get involved in any kind of suerveillance. Your typical person sees what other people want them to see, even close friends, you generally don't get to dig through someone's stuff, observe them when they think they are totally alone, or eavesdrop on what they tell differant people at differant times. Having all of that information generally turns people into bigots for some very good reasons. Out in the world everyone puts on a face, even with their friends and family, and seems relatively safe, normal, and just trying to get along. Not many people ever get to see beyond that, snoop, interrogate, etc... Due to public perceptions though cops and such at least have to play the game of being fairly liberal, but talk shop on the inside, or really get to know them... all of them wind up incredibly jaded. When I took criminal justice I was warned about this. People on forums like this consider me a pretty hateful person today, but honestly, I used to be far differant.

The point of the above rant is that while she was 14 when she said a lot of this stuff, some of the bits that people think make her "unsuitable for the job" are ironically very close to what most police or security veterans tend to think like. The complaints mostly being politically correct, in a very literal sense, since it's probably citizens appealing to politicians that are the force behind wanting her gone.

A lot of this won't be popular on these forums of course, but on a final note I'll say that if I was called upon to assist with her review (I've been in similar positions before) I'd primarly be looking at how well she did her job and how well she got along with the people she was supposed to be working with on both sides. How many incidents was she involved in, how did they turn out, co-worker and youth relations, etc... things like that. Even in the worst case scenario the bottom line is someone hired her, and even in the UK there is a right to free speech, she has every right to be a reprehensible jerk when you get down to it, it's all about if she can do the job, and whether she's the kind of jerk that is effecting the functioning of the unit she belongs to. Once she has the job if the only ones that don't like her are outsiders of the sort she's not dealing with professionally, they can go pound sand. My major concern with that job description is whether I can trust her to do the job, and whether those anti-social youths she's there to deal with accept her... and note, I by definition expert her to be an anti-social jerk, after all the whole point of the job is because the "normal" people we keep around can't do it. Chances are if she pisses off the politicians, she's A-okay with the problem children who also piss off the politically correct politicians... see the common ground they have?