Poll: Pirating

[Eclectic Dreck]

Piracy, in the swashbuckling, romanticized sea-based version is all fine and good so long as it stays a fairy tale. What we fail to remember is these people who became central myths and legends of western history actuallly killed quite a few people who probably did little to deserve it. The truth is, nobody ever wants the truth because it's unsettling at best.

Piracy, as it is being described here finds a similar fate. While it certainly puts on airs of counter-culter legitimacy and people who pirate often talk at length about sticking it to the man and refusing to support a product for some perfectly justifiable reason, the trouble is all we've really done is append a fancy old word to an even older (and far more boring) concept of theft. In spite of all the bluster from the piracy community to the contrary, people who pirate occupy the same moral valley as people who shoplift to support a drug habit. No amount of irrelevent idealist argument changes the fundamental fact that what you are doing is stealing - perhaps the purest violation that one person can infringe upon another without resorting to bodily harm.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Now see here good sir, I'm not saying that you are not entitled for compensation of your work, but copying is not the same thing as taking. You're only losing the reward, not the product that you are selling. There's a difference in deffinition.

An argument of this nature is a dangerous road to take. At the purest level you are indeed correct - if I steal your car I gain and you lose something tangible. When you steal intellictual property, in many cases you the only thing lost is the intangible idea of a reward. The trouble is, when you start splitting hairs like this your argument is seen, at best, as a flimsy rationalization designed to shield you from admitting to yourself that your theft of an album through some P2P network is somehow "less bad" than walking into a store and stealing the CD.

If you apply your very argument to another type of crime, you may see the problem. If I beat another person to death with my bare hands, I could rightly be called a murderer. If I instead shoot them with a gun is it somehow better? After all, I didn't do the killing - it was a bullet. If you start making strange distinctions such as yours you are forced to make convoluted jumps in logic that only serve to make YOU feel better about your crimes; nobody else will be taken in by them.

I'm not saying that it's compleatly allright. What I am saying, however, is that sometimes downloading stuff for free is acceptable. Sometimes the stuff you want isn't available for sale, or the means to buy it are inaccessable or that you don't possess the money in the first place.

The trouble with this argument is that it displays a sense of entitlement that borders on contept for the rights of others. I do not have the money for a Porsche - does that mean I should just steal one? These consumer products do not represent some sort of inalienable right. In fact, the totality of rights you as a consumer actually have consists of the choice to purchase what is available for the lowest price you can negotiate. No artist owes you a copy of their work even if you're willing to pay for it, and no industry will accept as collateral your financial regrets in exchange for a product.

I try to be neutral here. As I said, I don't think it's allright, but I still wouldn't throw people into jail for downloading few music albums.

Given that all other forms of theft can be a jailable offense, why is stealing IP somehow different? If a person steals more than $500 USD worth of goods from a store, they have committed a felony and given that most of the IP people routinely steal has a well known cost, it seems easy enough to determine when a person has exceeded this value. When you consider that many people who pirate games, music and movies do so regularly, you'd find it pretty easy to brand most of them a felon inside of a few months of criminal activity. The only catch here is that in most cases, you are looking at a cost for a single instance of a crime when dealing with classical theft versus long term theft. If you combine this with the simple fact that intellictual property laws are convoluted enough that it makes it difficult to determine ownership, I suspect you'll find that only people who are in flagrant violation of the law are prosecuted.

 

[Nmil-ek]

Uhhh... lets just say that's for me to know and for you to wonder, and i do think its wrong....in a way...but a good way to get back at evil corporation developers who piss you off?

Ford pissed me off. Can I Steal a car?

YOU WOULD NOT DOWNLAOD A CAR!

Lets drop the BS if we could steal a car without anyone noticing because millions more of us were doing it at the same time anonymously we all bloody would.

 

[MetaKnight19]

I've never pirated, mostly due to the fact that I don't see the point. Well OK I can, but I'd rather own a copy of the game rather than a piece of easily-deletable software. Also I don't have an eyepatch

 

[Hollock]

I do it if somethings hard to find in real life, or they crossed me.

 

[Taerdin]

I love pirating! Drinking rum all day, pet parrot, living on the seas, finding treasure, enjoying wenches, the pirates life for me!

Wait... whats this about "illegaly downloading games"? Like I have time for that in between all my pirate adventures!

Now if you'll excuse me, I've come across a map with a giant X on it, and I mean to do some pirating! Raise the anchor!

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Because no one on earth has morals.

No, EVERYBODY on earth has morals, but they may not share your personal take on things. Morality is, if you discard the specifics obviously, nothing more than the complex set of personal rules that a person uses when making decisions that do not require a logical thought process. They are, essentially, the benchmarks one uses when approaching any unknown situation where they are expected to make a decision.

 

[Rednog]

My personal opinion and ethics toward piracy.
Tv/Old Movies: The thought of "oh I'm pirating this right now" does not cross into my mind anymore. Maybe its some sort of thing growing up where hey I can record stuff off tv with a VCR and whatnot, but I am not a person who goes out and buys a season of a tv show on DVD. I would if I would ever watch it again, but I'm more of a person who watches something once and never again. In terms of old movies, I personally despise places like Blockbuster or other video rental places (mainly because of high rental costs and the often, well we only carry a single copy of X DVD, sorry if it breaks down halfway through the movie.) And one again I watch something once will never watch again so ordering off amazon or something is a little :\
No I don't get netflix in the current country I'm in, I would do that if I could.

Games: I buy what I like, I've been burned way too many times by buying a game at full price because some one recommend it to me or it had good reviews and looked good. This has saved me a lot of cash. I remember having spent my hard earned cash as a kid buying a game, popping it in playing for an hour or two just to realize it wasn't for me. But like I said, I do go out and buy a real copy of what I like.

Music: I don't listen to it, so no real problem for me there, if some reason I do need X song for whatever reason I do fork out the .99 to buy it on iTunes.

Cars: I would download them if I could, no second thoughts.

Once again this is my own personal opinion, and there really isn't much one could say to convince me to change my ways or go an extra mile to not pirate.
Also at those who cry "omg you risk your PC every time, because of torrents and etc" welcome to the bottom rung of internet piracy.

Because I've gotten stung by a mod before in a piracy thread:
Piracy is bad, I don't advocate it, JUST DON'T DO IT. Do everything legally!!!

 

[Gigano]

I don't think one should pirate anything copyrighted that can be legally bought in one's country or off the net. If it's not possible to get hold of a playable copy any other way (due to things like region locks, later DVD release dates or plain commercial unavailability), then I can sort of understand and sympathize with it, if you buy it when/if it becomes available to you.

The "extended demo" approach may be sort of acceptable too, if you either delete or buy after reasonable time to decide. With all the legal demos out there, it just seem an unnecessary risk to me.

Besides, with all the opensource alternatives that's around by now, there's hardly much need to risk getting a lot of the copyrighted stuff.

It's not a "crime spree" that keeps me up at night though - it's in the fairly innocent spectrum of illegality. And I don't think antipiracy groups should spend time suing non-commercial private pirates for disproportionate amounts.

 

[AWAR]

If you do it in order to gain profit then its wrong.If you download and you dont share or upload at a decent speed its wrong too.I only pirate music which is impossible to find here and games that are too old or too expensive to buy.
I support piracy as it is a perfect example of social sharing and giving, kinda like the first christian communities (not)

Any time you take someone's profit without paying them, you are profiting. You've gained something of value (no matter how small) and not repaid that value.

"Too expensive" isn't a good justification, either. Do you steal the Porsche because it's too expensive and you want it? Or do you buy the Toyota?

A company being profitable and its products being popular should not be equated with some sort of crime or sin which justifies anyone stealing from them. Moreover, theft DOES hurt us all as consumers. Sure, we have better distribution now; but at what price? DRM, increased scrutiny, ridiculous lawsuits--things that increase costs and decrease value not only for game consumers but I dare say to other people who have the temerity to use the internet.

Boo on us, who've pirated. Luckily, there's something all pirates can do: stop pirating. Lay down your eyepatch. Unscrew your gleaming hooks. Free your shoulder parrot.

Ok its simple, I'd rather see a company fat cat crying than my already empty wallet thinning.

And to all other things you mentioned (DRMs,Lawsuits e.t.c) thats why i support pirate parties. Besides companies went to far messing with our private lives.
So i say boo on all the people who support government's internet regulating programs and anti-social companies.

Except you're missing the fact that DRMs and Lawsuits began because of pirates getting their shit for free. So they made that to try and counteract it, evidently failing and punishing the people who try and get it legit. So thank you pirates for making things worse for everyone else.

Stop blaming pirates and start blaming companies already! God, this shit logic makes me wanna puke...

 

[ZerOmega]

An argument of this nature is a dangerous road to take. At the purest level you are indeed correct - if I steal your car I gain and you lose something tangible. When you steal intellictual property, in many cases you the only thing lost is the intangible idea of a reward. The trouble is, when you start splitting hairs like this your argument is seen, at best, as a flimsy rationalization designed to shield you from admitting to yourself that your theft of an album through some P2P network is somehow "less bad" than walking into a store and stealing the CD.

If you apply your very argument to another type of crime, you may see the problem. If I beat another person to death with my bare hands, I could rightly be called a murderer. If I instead shoot them with a gun is it somehow better? After all, I didn't do the killing - it was a bullet. If you start making strange distinctions such as yours you are forced to make convoluted jumps in logic that only serve to make YOU feel better about your crimes; nobody else will be taken in by them.

Don't try to antagonize me. Just because I disagree with you does not make me a criminal. Besides, beating someone to dead and shooting someone to dead ARE two different kind of murders with a same kind of conclusion: the victim dies. Piratism and bulgary are two different kinds of theivery with two different kinds of conclusions: In the later one, the victim loses material possession and in the former one he/she doesn't.

If intellectual property is really that valuable, then all the libraries are committing crimes every minute. Alright, that metaphor doesn't apply in this case, since the libraries are not companies made to make profit, but you get the idea. Just because there are libraries doesn't mean that all the bookshops are out of bussines.

 

[Daffy F]

I don't really do any pirating or illegal downloading...

 

[fenrizz]

I mostly download TV series that they have not started, or are currently not airing here in Norway.
Some movies in the past, but since I got myself a PS3 I've only bought Blu Ray's.

Don't download music, as I got an extensive CD collection, and listen to other stuff on youtube if needed.
I rarely download games, only if they are old and not available in stores.
And no, I will not pay full price for a 10 year old game. Ever.

Also, I boycott every game with nasty DRM solutions. And no, I don't download the either.

 

[dont_blink]

if i like an album that i pirate, i buy it.
i pirate movies to watch them once, or stream them, because neither of the video rental shops in my hometown have anything i want to watch.

also, if i really like a movie i'll buy it.

though i wont buy music from people who are anti-pirate. like lily allen, a guilty pleasure of mine, i was going to buy an album of hers that i downloaded a few weeks earlier, and that morning i read an article about her moaning about pirates.
well if she doesn't appreciate my custom...

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

An argument of this nature is a dangerous road to take. At the purest level you are indeed correct - if I steal your car I gain and you lose something tangible. When you steal intellictual property, in many cases you the only thing lost is the intangible idea of a reward. The trouble is, when you start splitting hairs like this your argument is seen, at best, as a flimsy rationalization designed to shield you from admitting to yourself that your theft of an album through some P2P network is somehow "less bad" than walking into a store and stealing the CD.

If you apply your very argument to another type of crime, you may see the problem. If I beat another person to death with my bare hands, I could rightly be called a murderer. If I instead shoot them with a gun is it somehow better? After all, I didn't do the killing - it was a bullet. If you start making strange distinctions such as yours you are forced to make convoluted jumps in logic that only serve to make YOU feel better about your crimes; nobody else will be taken in by them.

Don't try to antagonize me. Just because I disagree with you does not make me a criminal. Besides, beating someone to dead and shooting someone to dead ARE two different kind of murders with a same kind of conclusion: the victim dies. Piratism and bulgary are two different kinds of theivery with two different kinds of conclusions: In the later one, the victim loses material possession and in the former one he/she doesn't.

If intellectual property is really that valuable, then all the libraries are committing crimes every minute. Alright, that metaphor doesn't apply in this case, since the libraries are not companies made to make profit, but you get the idea. Just because there are libraries doesn't mean that all the bookshops are out of bussines.

You'll note that I, never once, attacked you for holding an opinion nor implied your opinion made you a criminal. Instead, I pointed out what I percieve to be errors in your argument. What does and does not make one a criminal is a point unworthy of argument - all one needs to do is commit a crime to earn the classification.

The trouble with your logic as I see it, is that you attempt to imply because a person does not lose something tangible because of IP violations it is something other than theft. Yes, under the traditional interpretation, a theft generally involves the loss of something real to go with the gain, but it seems clear enough from my vantage point that the bit about gain is just as important as the bit about loss.

Of course, you do have an interesting point that I've often considered. There are plenty of places where I can go and effectively do the same exact thing as piracy and yet it is entirely legal. I can purchase games through the used market, I can rent a video from a store, I can read a book from a library. In each case I experience the media in question and yet the person who produced the product gains nothing. People rarely complain about such things and yet, I can't help but feel if I owned any IP actually worthy of being compensated for I would stand staunchly against such nonsense. The trouble is, this creates the very double standard you allude to. Not only are IP laws nearly impossible to understand they are full of contradictions that make determining right from wrong nearly impossible in some cases.

 

[ntnimara]

I dont understand why someone would do this. A person can work for years on a product and some person comes along and just gets it for free ? Thats not fair to anybody and you can argue that its is.

and a person can work for years and never buy it.. in some areas of the world (round E.Europe and Balkans for ex).. people are true wage slaves.. entertainment is something we can't afford.. yet we get indoctrinated with the same western consumerist thirst

still.. when you boil it down.. pirating is theft of one sort or other.. or is it sharing without permission? (is there a difference?)

 

[Virus0015]

Well I have looted a fair few container ships in the gulf of Aden with... oh you mean that kind of piracy!

Never have (unless you count listening to music on youtube to see if it is worth buying), and never will. It is no different to stealing, and I would not shoplift in real life so why would I do it online? I don't like people's excuses saying that they can't afford it etc. Weather they like it or not people worked very hard to make that product, how would you like it if someone gets a cut of your job salary for no reason? Piracy will undoubtedly boil down to making people redundant, and affect the lowest of the low on that job tier. There is no justification for media piracy, if you deem it good enough to use then you respect the owners term's of use, for without them you wouldn't even be able to buy it.

 

[Lullabye]

I dont understand why someone would do this. A person can work for years on a product and some person comes along and just gets it for free ? Thats not fair to anybody and you can argue that its is.

and a person can work for years and never buy it.. in some areas of the world (round E.Europe and Balkans for ex).. people are true wage slaves.. entertainment is something we can't afford.. yet we get indoctrinated with the same western consumerist thirst

still.. when you boil it down.. pirating is theft of one sort or other.. or is it sharing without permission? (is there a difference?)

Really it just depends on the situation. I have a friend who developes software for certain games(like second life.....dont play it ever) and I asked him how he felt when people tried to download his stuff for free. He said he loved it, it was like free advertising of his product. He still did all he could to prevent it, but in the end, it was all about getting his product out there, not making money. Games are art, and dev's are artists.....best analogy I can come up with...
OFFT:wtf is wrong with you people? 6 pages and no pirate song of any sort? well Im gonna fix that!
[youtube=n2d4W-ixLRQ

 

[vrbtny]

I only get stuff like the Fire emblems which weren't released over here....

 

[kekeekekenee]

lol this is a poll created by the system man, they're gonna sue us.

YARRRR