Poll: Playing As The Third Riech

[beastro]

Only issue I have is playing Islamic factions in historical games like CK2 (does help that their gameplay mechanics are usually different and less enjoyable than others in games like said games Islamic succession laws or having higher corruption and more inept leaders in ETW, etc), no issue with FPSs though.

That's interesting, care to explain why?

I'm unabashedly Euro-centric in such games, the Middle east in a place to conquer, not a place to conquer from, unless you happen to be European as well (My legacy collection at court in CK2 is a mix of Norse, Persians, East Indian and a mix of the three that mingled during my century and a half controlling central Asia and India).

In most games, if they have a Japan I'll play it, but besides that it's European factions.

On top of that is a modern dislike of contemporary ambitions of Islamists that colours things for me growing up over the past few decades. Its closer to home than Pagans, Zoroastrians or Buddhists painting a map fo the Old World in their religion.

And I don't think games like Red Orchestra or Company of Heroes count, because the germans are just a 'team' without any in-game personality or context (which is totally fine for RO and CoH).

Why I don't have a problem playing Islamic factions in FPS or anything else similar to them and I actually preferred playing the Iraqi's in Desert Combat because their vehicles were more interesting and flexible, like using the amphib armour on the BF42 water maps and becoming a little warship.

I think if a game took a Spec Ops: The Line approach to playing the third riech, it could be really interesting.

A developer would have to walk a fine line to keep it from becoming voyeuristic porn where you get to see the atrocities of the Eastern Front played out to sell to giggling idiots who find it amusing.

 

[RealRT]

The very idea of it baffles me to the core. Of course not. No fucking way in hell I am comfortable with playing as them.

 

[xaszatm]

Only issue I have is playing Islamic factions in historical games like CK2 (does help that their gameplay mechanics are usually different and less enjoyable than others in games like said games Islamic succession laws or having higher corruption and more inept leaders in ETW, etc), no issue with FPSs though.

That's interesting, care to explain why?

I'm unabashedly Euro-centric in such games, the Middle east in a place to conquer, not a place to conquer from, unless you happen to be European as well (My legacy collection at court in CK2 is a mix of Norse, Persians, East Indian and a mix of the three that mingled during my century and a half controlling central Asia and India).

In most games, if they have a Japan I'll play it, but besides that it's European factions.

On top of that is a modern dislike of contemporary ambitions of Islamists that colours things for me growing up over the past few decades. Its closer to home than Pagans, Zoroastrians or Buddhists painting a map fo the Old World in their religion.

And I don't think games like Red Orchestra or Company of Heroes count, because the germans are just a 'team' without any in-game personality or context (which is totally fine for RO and CoH).

Why I don't have a problem playing Islamic factions in FPS or anything else similar to them and I actually preferred playing the Iraqi's in Desert Combat because their vehicles were more interesting and flexible, like using the amphib armour on the BF42 water maps and becoming a little warship.

I think if a game took a Spec Ops: The Line approach to playing the third riech, it could be really interesting.

A developer would have to walk a fine line to keep it from becoming voyeuristic porn where you get to see the atrocities of the Eastern Front played out to sell to giggling idiots who find it amusing.

Have you played India in that game, out of curiosity? I know its an expansion so you might not have but I'm curious of what you thought of that.

OT: It would depend on the type of game, but for the most part I would say yes. If we were playing as a SS officer or similar "bad guy" character, the more camp it is, the more okay I am with it. But one particular thing I would be interested in would be to play as a German citizen. It would offer a very interesting view of the first country taken over by the Nazi party.

 

[zen5887]

Snip

So, uh.. Islamophobia then?

OT: It would depend on the type of game, but for the most part I would say yes. If we were playing as a SS officer or similar "bad guy" character, the more camp it is, the more okay I am with it. But one particular thing I would be interested in would be to play as a German citizen. It would offer a very interesting view of the first country taken over by the Nazi party.

Oh man, I totally forgot about the camp factor.

I would absolutely love to play a Colonel Klinger type character haha.

 

[clippen05]

The very idea of it baffles me to the core. Of course not. No fucking way in hell I am comfortable with playing as them.

Yeah, because a common footsoldier who was likely forced to fight for his country, despite not necessarily believing in their leaders' ideals is deplorable. Yes, because the old Prussian generals that had nothing to do with the Nazi Party are vile creatures. Because games have you play as nazis in concentration camps... oh wait, they don't, you play as footsoldiers or generals, not torturers and executioners. I'm sure you believe all germans were Nazis, don't you. If you are so concerned with the acts of some terrible men spoiling an entire nation, then you really can't play as any nation in a game. Practically no country has a perfectly clean record. Do I refuse from playing the Americans in COD:BO because the Americans killed civilians in Vietnam? No. Do I refuse from playing the Americans because they ethnically cleansed the native populations from their lands? No. Do I refuse from playing as Belgium because of their tortures and genocide in Congo? No, and this post could go on and on. Quit acting like you are claiming some moral high ground, because if that's the route you want to take, you better be only playing games with fictional settings.

 

[RealRT]

The very idea of it baffles me to the core. Of course not. No fucking way in hell I am comfortable with playing as them.

Yeah, because a common footsoldier who was likely forced to fight for his country, despite not necessarily believing in their leaders' ideals is deplorable. Yes, because the old Prussian generals that had nothing to do with the Nazi Party are vile creatures. Because games have you play as nazis in concentration camps... oh wait, they don't, you play as footsoldiers or generals, not torturers and executioners. I'm sure you believe all germans were Nazis, don't you. If you are so concerned with the acts of some terrible men spoiling an entire nation, then you really can't play as any nation in a game. Practically no country has a perfectly clean record. Do I refuse from playing the Americans in COD:BO because the Americans killed civilians in Vietnam? No. Do I refuse from playing the Americans because they ethnically cleansed the native populations from their lands? No. Do I refuse from playing as Belgium because of their tortures and genocide in Congo? No, and this post could go on and on. Quit acting like you are claiming some moral high ground, because if that's the route you want to take, you better be only playing games with fictional settings.

No. No I fucking don't believe all Germans were Nazis. In fact, I always said that Germans were the first victims of Nazis and that this fact is sadly overlooked. I don't refuse to play as German army in any other setting, hell even WWI. But Nazi German army? I wouldn't play as them just as I wouldn't play as Americans in 'Nam or Belgians in Congo. And next time you try to preach to someone, make sure you know what their opinions are before making assumptions.

 

[Squilookle]

Never had a problem playing them in multiplayer in Battlefield, COH and MOH. If a game attempted it with a decent level of maturity, I would respect it for the new understanding it could bring to gaming as a medium.

 

[BathorysGraveland2]

I've been wanting to ever since I played Medal of Honor: Frontlines as a kid. I've always loved the idea of seeing the opposite perspective, and I was hyped as hell to play as a North Vietnamese soldier in Vietcong 2 (unfortunately it sucked, but I digress). It gets boring playing as the same perspective over and over. Sure, you can switch it up by having it set in different areas of the war, but ultimately, it still feels samey. Playing as the opposite perspective, being subject to the propaganda, maybe having conversations with your fellow soldiers about what is going on and how they feel about it.. well, if a developer decided to grow a set of balls, there's a lot they could do with that. If you wanted to keep it semi-politically correct, you could have the game played from the perspective of one of the Afrika Corps soldiers, who served under Rommel (if you don't know, Rommel is considered one of the "nicer", or less horrible Nazis, so much so that the Aussie and British troops respected him).

Or you could play as a once-proud soldier who becomes disgruntled during the Eastern Front, Stalingrad in particular. The German movie Stalingrad (1993) did this to great effect. It ended up less about Nazism or German nationalism, and more about survival and not really knowing what you're fighting for anymore. There's lots of very good ideas that could be used by a brave developer who isn't afraid to take a risk.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

I have no problem with playing a faction who represents the Third Reich in any war-game where it's just a simple contest of arms.

I'm unabashedly Euro-centric in such games, the Middle east in a place to conquer, not a place to conquer from, unless you happen to be European as well (My legacy collection at court in CK2 is a mix of Norse, Persians, East Indian and a mix of the three that mingled during my century and a half controlling central Asia and India).

In most games, if they have a Japan I'll play it, but besides that it's European factions.

On top of that is a modern dislike of contemporary ambitions of Islamists that colours things for me growing up over the past few decades. Its closer to home than Pagans, Zoroastrians or Buddhists painting a map fo the Old World in their religion.

I don't mean to change your mind or anything, but radical modern Islam has jack-all in common with the Islamic world of antiquity, and 'Islamists' represent a tiny minority of the Islamic world today.

 

[zen5887]

[Don't know about him. But I'm fairly sure most people wouldn't want to play as Islamic Extremists in a modern shooter. Frankly anyone who would want to would either be an extremist themselves or some armchair warrior who's anti military who doesn't have a fucking clue what's happened in the last 15 years.

Yeah, that's a whole different topic, one that's a lot more complex than the third reich one. But Beastro is talking about playing Islamic nations in the middle ages, which is completely different to playing Islamic nations today.

 

[Sandjube]

Not only am I happy to, I'd rather play them then the americans. I like their uniform, vehicles, and weaponry much more than the american counterparts.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I'm unabashedly Euro-centric in such games, the Middle east in a place to conquer, not a place to conquer from, unless you happen to be European as well.

You should play EU4 sometime. It sounds like your kind of game.

If you're European in EU4, you actually do just get to sail around the world conquering whatever the hell you want, wiping out cultures and civilizations and converting the survivors to Christianity because.. you know.. that was an actual thing that happened.

Maybe take some perspective from that..

 

[Elijin]

Seems like a moot point.

Any game prepared to try just boils down to you using the equipment and uniforms. In which case, who cares. Its just gear and a snazzy outfit.

I spose the question would have more weight if any game that let you play as the Germans actually dealt with the darker sides. It could actual make an interesting dark game, with some actual choices. Do you follow orders to preserve your own self and family? Do you toe the line, doing tid bits here and there which can pass unnoticed? Do you outright throw your lot in with the persecuted and run for your life, damning your family? Do you find like minded soldiers and become one of the many units not involved in the atrocities?


Until its explored with any depth, its basically just a colour palette and equipment loadout and shouldnt affect the decision of a rational person without first hand experience.

 

[Lieju]

Comfortable?

I'm not sure the point of playing a game where you play an SS officer hunting down Jews for example should try to make you 'comfortable'.

In something where they are impersonal armies, less so.
And it's not like I think a game where you play from a German perspective shouldn't exist, but the events of WWII are still pretty recent and still closely influence current events.

And there are planty of Holocaust denialists who claim none of it happened or that it wasn't as bad as people say, not to mention people who think antisemitism was invented by the Nazis, or that the Jews were the only people the Nazis targeted.
It's still very political, so you'd need to take care in how you approach it.

And I have no patience for things that are merely trying to be offensive for the sake of being offensive, so...

You'd better have a point.

 

[maxben]

snip

I get that, I personally refuse to play Christians in CKII or EUIII/EUIV. I don't hate Christians or Europe, but I like the concept of invading Europe with a foreign host. In my current EUIII game (using my favourite mod) I am at war with the HRE after conquering Africa and the Middle East as Morocco, Westernizing, and establishing the Caliphate. I am having a lot of funny marching on Vienna.

 

[Flames66]

Yes, I would even accept playing through an exact recreation of events, so long as it makes for a good game, and remains unbiased to either side of the war at the time, as impossible as that is to pull off.

I don't see why it has to be unbiased, The ideologies of the war itself certainly weren't. I think it would be quite fun to be cast as the absolute villain in a game.

I don't want to play a game or watch a movie about a Jewish refuge running away from the SS, I want to watch a movie or play a game about the SS hunting down Jews. I want to see how far down the rabbit hole we can go.

I would like to play both of those. One could be a tense survival horror game set in Nazi occupied France with jewish refugees trying to avoid SS patrols coordinated by a sinister Jew Hunter style character. The other could be from the opposite perspective, commanding forces trying to hunt down clever refugees as they attempt to escape. It could even be multi-player with people on both sides.

The very idea of it baffles me to the core. Of course not. No fucking way in hell I am comfortable with playing as them.

Why is that? You would not actually be committing those atrocities, only acting them out for entertainment.

Don't know about him. But I'm fairly sure most people wouldn't want to play as Islamic Extremists in a modern shooter. Frankly anyone who would want to would either be an extremist themselves or some armchair warrior who's anti military who doesn't have a fucking clue what's happened in the last 15 years.

I wouldn't want to in a "modern shooter", but only because I don't like "spunkgargleweewee" games anyway. I would be interested to play such a character in a story driven game.

 

[Kanova]

I prefer playing as Germans in WW games. They look awesome, and have really gnarly guns. Also, someone was talking about Axis always winning in Red Orchestra. It is always skill, and the map. Rakowice, Germans will almost always win because its a pretty big map with 3/5 cap points being almost impossible to take. Spartanovka, Russians usually win because the church is pretty easy to defend and it is easy to base rape early if you have an at least decent team. Its all skill. Then again, I only play on the 2FJG servers. Lots of regulars, almost always full.

 

[kasperbbs]

I would be fine with playing as the ordinary nazi soldier who is forced to fight in the war to protect his family and obviously he wouldn't be all that thrilled about fighting the whole world for his leaders fucked up ambitions.

 

[AmberSword]

I don't see why it has to be unbiased, The ideologies of the war itself certainly weren't. I think it would be quite fun to be cast as the absolute villain in a game.

Well unbiased is a very strong word, and quite frankly impossible to achieve, but I have no other way to put it really.
What I mean is that they of course could be portrayed as the villians, maybe some of them enjoying their positions of power, while others secretly pitying those they oppressed.

I just don't want the game to suddenly become a Nazi apologist fest, or have an entire game based around things like concentration camps, and every fellow that ever existed in the Third Reich sharing the same ideals/ being a sadistic torture loving scum etc etc. (unless its so far away from reality that it doesn't matter, but I think such games do already exist)

Basically, if a semi-realistic game is created based on the Third Reich, they should try to show more sides of the story, handle it in a mature manner, not try to cover up, but at the same time not try to exaggerate. This is basically impossible as I have already mentioned, because the media would blast said developer into non-existence.

 

[Naeras]

As an old Company of Heroes-player, I have to say yes. Wehrmacht from CoH is one of the best designed RTS-factions ever made.