Poll: Please do not vote
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That's basically right, but it's the major difference between a prime minister, and a President. I don't know the ins and outs of the Australian system, sad to say, but there's a good chance that you *are* voting for the party. The unfortunate truth about American politics is that ideology often takes a back seat to personality. The number of Democrats who would cut off their nose to spite their face (insofar as they would refuse to vote if their person didn't win) is absolutely staggering. They'd rather see someone who completely disagrees with them in office, than swallow their pride, and vote for the person closest to their interests.stompy said:
As Bill Clinton put it: "Democrats want to fall in love, Republicans fall in line"
I vote if only so I have the right to complain, either that everything would be less fucked if my guy had won, or that man, my candidate turned out to be a lying, incompetant douchebag (I hear this from a few Republicans who are now all *facepalm* over having supported the Bush administration, and I know some lefties who did the same over Clinton), or that my candidate is a shining paragon who is being hamstrung by the evil opposition in Congress. However it plays out, if I didn't value my opinion enough to express it in the ballot box, I don't get to declare it to be solid gold after the election is done.
I'm an Australian, and my birthday is early December. Our last Federal Election took place roughly a week before my 18th birthday. I would have loved to vote. I followed the debates, watched the press club addresses, noted the polls, and yet, my opinion was totally invalid because of my age. In fact, a mate of mine who's birthday is in September (we're both born the same year) literally didn't vote. He protested the similarity of the parties that we had to vote for, and took the fine intentionally. His opinion was as well formed as mine, and while I disagree with his decision, his was more valid than mine according to the Government. This... annoys me. But it's not quite the point of this thread.
There's an effect of people not voting that noone's yet discussed here, I think. I honestly don't know how it applies to the apparently murky system of politics that is American Democracy, but one thing that'll happen if most people don't vote is that loud minorities begin to have political influence, which can be a serious problem. By "loud minorities", I mean groups of people with nonstandard ideals (for example, pro-firearms in a country with restricted access to firearms, or something like that), but a faithful, if small, following that plans to vote. It can allow parties with uncommon policies to gain power. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can be. I don't know how serious this effect would be, but I always percieved it as a major reason why voting is compulsory in Australia when I wondered about it. If everyone votes, then common standards will be maintained by the elected Government. That's what I always thought, anyway.
That said, the two leading parties in Australia are quite similar. Relative to what I can tell about the Democrats and Republicans, that is. So perhaps this wouldn't work in the USA. I dunno.
Just some thoughts.
Oh, and werepossum,
There's an effect of people not voting that noone's yet discussed here, I think. I honestly don't know how it applies to the apparently murky system of politics that is American Democracy, but one thing that'll happen if most people don't vote is that loud minorities begin to have political influence, which can be a serious problem. By "loud minorities", I mean groups of people with nonstandard ideals (for example, pro-firearms in a country with restricted access to firearms, or something like that), but a faithful, if small, following that plans to vote. It can allow parties with uncommon policies to gain power. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can be. I don't know how serious this effect would be, but I always percieved it as a major reason why voting is compulsory in Australia when I wondered about it. If everyone votes, then common standards will be maintained by the elected Government. That's what I always thought, anyway.
That said, the two leading parties in Australia are quite similar. Relative to what I can tell about the Democrats and Republicans, that is. So perhaps this wouldn't work in the USA. I dunno.
Just some thoughts.
Oh, and werepossum,
It's significantly harder to say that word than it is to spell it.werepossum said:
I live in a city called Wollongong and there is an interesting story behind this.
In Australia when you vote for the PM you have many different political parties to choose from. The two main political parties are Liberal and Labour. There are other parties such as The Greens, The Democrats and One nation (boo hiss). Well anyway you choose who will lead the country by choosing what Party you like, the leader of the winning party becomes the PM. But in a Federal Election you don't vote for what Party will rule the country you vote for what party rules your local area.
Anyway as I was saying I live in Wollongong and the local council (A Labor council) was found to be corrupt. Really corrupt! A building planner was sleeping with members of the council to get building plans permitted for crying out loud. It was a steaming hot bed of corruption. Well the council members have all been fired and I believe that a new council has been placed as representatives.
The annoying thing is that people do not care about what leader and what party will be best for their local area, instead they look at elections as popularity contests (Kevin 07 t-shirts anyone). Well labour is the most popular Party at the moment (and will stay this way) until the next election. Well people are going to reelect the corrupt council because labour is seen (I wish I was joking) as the good guys. Hence the corrupt council is seen as the good guys.
This is why I don't hold much faith in the voting system. Far too easily corrupted by flashy ads and scare tactics.
In Australia when you vote for the PM you have many different political parties to choose from. The two main political parties are Liberal and Labour. There are other parties such as The Greens, The Democrats and One nation (boo hiss). Well anyway you choose who will lead the country by choosing what Party you like, the leader of the winning party becomes the PM. But in a Federal Election you don't vote for what Party will rule the country you vote for what party rules your local area.
Anyway as I was saying I live in Wollongong and the local council (A Labor council) was found to be corrupt. Really corrupt! A building planner was sleeping with members of the council to get building plans permitted for crying out loud. It was a steaming hot bed of corruption. Well the council members have all been fired and I believe that a new council has been placed as representatives.
The annoying thing is that people do not care about what leader and what party will be best for their local area, instead they look at elections as popularity contests (Kevin 07 t-shirts anyone). Well labour is the most popular Party at the moment (and will stay this way) until the next election. Well people are going to reelect the corrupt council because labour is seen (I wish I was joking) as the good guys. Hence the corrupt council is seen as the good guys.
This is why I don't hold much faith in the voting system. Far too easily corrupted by flashy ads and scare tactics.
Nah, Steve McQueen has a better tax benifits. Vote 1 Steve McQueen!Saskwach said:
Anyways, I'm an Aussie and we have to vote. Also I really don't give two stuffs about the American election. Why is it being so advertised to the world? Why not the Indonesian election?
The american system is a bit weird to me, but i'm in Australian...
the main thing that confuse me are thus:
1) are there more than 2 parties? because we get some american news channels here on Foxtel (cable, and you guys don't show much foreign news) and all that ever comes up is the Republicans and the Democrats, or are those other parties just given very little attention due to lack of funding ect?
2) why are the mascots and elephant and a donkey?
2a) if one of the mascots is indeed a donkey and i'm not just horribly animal blind... why are their so little 'ass' jokes around?
3) Is someone's political affiliation such a big deal in real american life? it comes across like that from some of your TV (which is basically our TV, whatever your drawbacks as a nation, Australian programs just don't have the same kick as CSI, though 'underbelly' (drama based on gang activity) is quite good, if thats your taste)
4) How do the 'primaries' work? its confusing me mad when Colbert keeps mentioning them instead of interviewing some poor sod, and im sitting here feeling ignorant.
Not really election questions...
5) do you guys really have to recite the pledge of allegiance every day in primary school?
6) does your media give you the opinion that australians ride kangaroos? i swear i get asked this in every online game.
7) do you find the Australian accent attractive? no real reason... its just a question that occasionaly crops up in the jumble that is my mind
feel free to insult my ignorance, but i would like the opinions of someone similar to myself from across the sea... (we're an island, and a continent, and a nation, and oddly enough still a constitutional monarchy (apathy ftw!)... forgive our confusion, its a natural state of mind.)
the main thing that confuse me are thus:
1) are there more than 2 parties? because we get some american news channels here on Foxtel (cable, and you guys don't show much foreign news) and all that ever comes up is the Republicans and the Democrats, or are those other parties just given very little attention due to lack of funding ect?
2) why are the mascots and elephant and a donkey?
2a) if one of the mascots is indeed a donkey and i'm not just horribly animal blind... why are their so little 'ass' jokes around?
3) Is someone's political affiliation such a big deal in real american life? it comes across like that from some of your TV (which is basically our TV, whatever your drawbacks as a nation, Australian programs just don't have the same kick as CSI, though 'underbelly' (drama based on gang activity) is quite good, if thats your taste)
4) How do the 'primaries' work? its confusing me mad when Colbert keeps mentioning them instead of interviewing some poor sod, and im sitting here feeling ignorant.
Not really election questions...
5) do you guys really have to recite the pledge of allegiance every day in primary school?
6) does your media give you the opinion that australians ride kangaroos? i swear i get asked this in every online game.
7) do you find the Australian accent attractive? no real reason... its just a question that occasionaly crops up in the jumble that is my mind
feel free to insult my ignorance, but i would like the opinions of someone similar to myself from across the sea... (we're an island, and a continent, and a nation, and oddly enough still a constitutional monarchy (apathy ftw!)... forgive our confusion, its a natural state of mind.)
@PurpleRain,
@Fire Dæmon,
@Gavaroc,
I actually was referring to the last election. I've not really payed any attention to any before this one just gone. As I said, I'm only recently 18.
That said, I've been sort of impressed by Kevin Rudd so far. He's following through on what he said he'd do, and he's been doing all these local gatherings, so people can meet with him and discuss whatever they want. However, this is getting off topic. This isn't about Australian Politics, it's about why people should/shouldn't vote.
Also, while I do pronounce it as you said, "kuh-THOOL-hoo", I think I'm wrong. It's supposed to be sort of gurrural and growled, as it's not a word that was designed for human tongues.
Because it's important. It may affect the course of the world as a whole. America has a lot of sway right now in terms of global political power. They also happen to be involved in the preeminent war that's taking place, and a change of leadership there might affect that war.PurpleRain said:
@Fire Dæmon,
The number of parliamentary seats given to each party is directly derived from the number of electorates, which are the local areas that Daemon mentioned. So people are naturally concerned about the large-scale ruling of the nation. Which is why there's a problem with the system. People who want to vote, say, Labor, for the nation, but want a Liberal government for their electorate are kind of screwed over.Fire Daemon said:
@Gavaroc,
I actually was referring to the last election. I've not really payed any attention to any before this one just gone. As I said, I'm only recently 18.
That said, I've been sort of impressed by Kevin Rudd so far. He's following through on what he said he'd do, and he's been doing all these local gatherings, so people can meet with him and discuss whatever they want. However, this is getting off topic. This isn't about Australian Politics, it's about why people should/shouldn't vote.
Also, while I do pronounce it as you said, "kuh-THOOL-hoo", I think I'm wrong. It's supposed to be sort of gurrural and growled, as it's not a word that was designed for human tongues.
Kevin who? I don't know what you're talking about... By the way, has anyone noticed how John Howard's looking so much younger these days?
...
Yeah, that was a joke. I'll stop now.
Anyway, this topic is about politics, and because most of the forum members seem to be Australian, there's nothing off-topic about going into Aussie politics. Or any other country's politics for that matter.
Personally, I'd much prefer to have this guy running the country than any other politician I've heard of in Australia or the U.S.
http://www.maxforpresident.org/
...
Yeah, that was a joke. I'll stop now.
Anyway, this topic is about politics, and because most of the forum members seem to be Australian, there's nothing off-topic about going into Aussie politics. Or any other country's politics for that matter.
Personally, I'd much prefer to have this guy running the country than any other politician I've heard of in Australia or the U.S.
http://www.maxforpresident.org/
1) There are many parties in the USA, but the system is heavily weighted toward the two main parties. Just getting your candidate on the ballot can be extremely difficult, and if you can do that in many states the candidates other than Republican and Democrat usually are listed as Independents. Funding is a part, but mostly it's the system itself. Even when the parties were different - Whig, Federalist, Greenback, Bull Moose (yes, I'm serious) - the system soon squeezes itself back into two parties. Much of this is due to the Electoral College, an elaborate system set up to protect small states from being dominated by large states. Electoral votes are apportioned by population, but each state gets two additional. Therefore sparsely populated Wyoming gets three, not one. A presidential election must be won by an absolute majority of electoral votes or selection goes to the House of Representatives, so three or more parties receiving electoral college votes could cause political chaos.Ultrajoe said:
It gets even better - The Republican Party (the party of limited government which grew the federal government faster during 2001 - 2006 than ever before) and the Democrat Party (the party of the litle guy which is dominated by multimillionaires) used to be the same party, until the mid-nineteenth century. They split over slavery - Republicans split off to oppose it, Democrats favored it. And each pretends to adopt the other's positions if it thinks the wind's blowing that way. Besides those two we also have the Green Party (supposedly dedicated to protecting the environment, our Green Party is dedicated to Socialism with a capital 'S') and the Libertarian Party (the party supposedly dedicated to personal liberty and small government but mostly interested in legalizing drugs.) And then there are oodles of splinter parties - mostly issue parties, dedicated to opposing or promoting a particular issue, without any chance of attaining power but with a small chance of acting as a spoiler for the party closest to their own viewpoint by siphoning off votes. So don't feel bad if it's not clear. People say American politics is like herding cats, but that's wrong; cats don't lie.
2) I have no idea why those were chosen, but I suspect the jokes have gotten stale over the decades.
3) Political affiliation CAN be a big deal, but isn't necessarily. For instance, in our city almost all the engineers are Republican, while the architects are about evenly split; we still work together, and only Occassionally look at the other as if he'd sprouted another head. Whether it's a big deal depends on how strongly you feel about some hot-button issues such as the right to bear arms (Republicans favor, Democrats oppose) or the right to an abortion (Democrats favor, at public expense, Republicans oppose.) It also depends somewhat on how you relate to other issues like tax rates, the optimum size of government, and the function of government. It can be important if some issue greatly affects your life. For instance, if you're gay and someone refused to rent his garage apartment to you, the Democratic platform of non-discrimination at any level might lead you to be a Democratic activist. Conversely if you refused to rent your garage apartment to a gay tenant who later successfully sues you claiming discrimination (or if the government makes you rent it to him), you might become a Republican activist. Sexual orientation can be a hot-button issue between gays (and sympathizers) who feel they need more protection and/or special rights, and conservatives who feel that sexual orientation should not convey special rights or laws, or even that discriminization against gays is acceptable in certain circumstances. (This is usually driven by religious views, but oddly enough some of the most virulently anti-gay people I know are otherwise good Democrats. Go figure. It's also worth pointing out that although homosexuality is pounded pretty good in the Old Testament, it's not something Jesus touched on at all. So for Christians the religious prohibition is pretty tenuous to me, anyway.) In general, Republicans tend to want smaller, less intrusive government, lower taxes, and conservative values - no sex education in school, traditional married families favored over non-traditional (which can be anything from gay to single mother to living together) families - and at least pay lip service to a government which only does for the populace what the populace absolutely can't do for itself. In general, Democrats tend to want larger, more inclusive government, higher taxes (especially on the more successful), and progressive values - sex education in school, government-mandated acceptance of non-traditional roles such as gay - and want a government which provides for the common good by taking money away from more affluent people and giving it to poorer people, enacting laws to protect poor or powerless people, providing public money for the arts, and generally redressing perceived wrongs in society. Republicans fight crime by putting criminals in jail; Democrats fight crime by attacking "root causes" such as poverty and favor community programs and shorter sentences. It's been said that a Republican is just a Democrat who's been arrested and a Democrat is just a Republican who's been mugged, so you can see the confusion in the system.
4) Primaries are even more odd than our general elections. A primary is a mini election within each state, used to determine each party's candidate. Each state and territory is allocated a certain number of delegates (who are elected to go to the party's convention and cast electoral votes) based on its population and its perceived usefulness to the party's chances of success in the general election. Some states allocate their electoral votes on a winner-take-all popular vote; others allocate their electoral votes on a winner-take-all vote by number of districts (a voting block smaller than a state or county)won, and in some the state's electoral votes are allocated proportionally according to each candidate's percentage of the popular vote OR each candidate's share of precincts. Each state Republican and Democrat party is free to determine its method of allocating the delegates (primary electoral votes.) Thus this year New York and New Jersey, two states which are almost always won by the Democrat candidate, went winner-take-all and had a huge effect in selecting the Republican nominee.
Some states don't even use a primary election at all: they use a caucus, in which speakers argue for each candidate and voters then go stand in a particular spot to cast their "vote" for a particular candidate. Caucuses are more prone to picking candidates from the core of the party (hard left or hard right) since they take more time and everyone sees how you voted. Caucus voters may also change their minds during the process, so some good old-fashioned horsetrading takes place. Perhaps you'd like "A" to be the candidate, but you'll switch your vote to "C" to keep the old SOB "B" from winning.
But wait, it gets better! One state (Texas) uses both; first you go vote, then if you want you can go caucus. If you are dedicated enough to go through the caucus afterwards, then in effect you get two votes (although the caucus allocates only 1/3 of the electoral votes.) Then you have super delegates - only the Democrats use them, but about 1/5 of the Democrat delegates are not popularly selected at all, but are party officials and elected officials of that party, and can vote any way they want. Thus the confusion in this year's Democrat primary season; since mathematically neither candidate is going to accumulate enough electoral votes to win the nomination, the candidate will be selected by party officials. And many states don't have first-ballot laws, so you can say you'll vote for one candidate and then vote for another. (This very, very seldom happens.)
As if that's not enough of a clusterf-ck, there is a tradition as to which states vote first. In a year in which the nominee is selected early, states that vote late have no say at all in the primary. This year many states moved their primaries up in an attempt to have a say in selecting the nominees. Two states, Michigan and Florida, were punished for moving their primaries up too far. The Republicans removed half their delegates (electoral votes), whilst the Democrats removed all their delegates. The Republican candidates still campaigned in those states, but the Democrats did not. (All candidates except Hillary removed their names from the ballot in Michigan; in Florida all the names were on the ballot, but no Democrat actively campaigned there, and no Florida-only ads ran.) There will probably be a lawsuit or three on whether delegates from these states will get to vote in the Democratic convention, where the actual candidate is selected. And just to make it really juicy, the Florida primary date was set by the state legislature - which is controlled by the Republicans! (I should also mention that in some states primaries are funded and controlled by the states, whereas in others the parties fund and control them.)
So if you're feeling ignorant, you are officially pardoned. No one should know that much about another country's politics.
5) When I was a child we did. Later it was abolished. It pops up from time to time and goes back and forth. Republicans want to instate it to prove their patriotism; Democrats want to abolish it to prove theirs. Go figure.
6) Not really. I wasn't under the impression that any surviving kangeroos were large enough to be ridden, and assumed they were protected three ways from Sunday by the government. Maybe it's some kind of cartoon or anime giving people that idea?
7) Oh yeah. At the World's Fair (1980 maybe?) at the Australian pavilion there was a very cute young lady giving the speech, and I was so enthralled my listening to her accent that I later realized I'd heard nothing she said. So I went through again and got the dog and pony show.
EDIT: Added item 6 response.
I've never gotten that. At least our mascots make senes. Both are Australian animals and neither can walk backwards. Symbolic and homegrown. Now an Elephant? It's grey like their morals? *boom tish*Ultrajoe said:
In a country run by people who see themselves as Elephants or Donkeys what do you expect of the populace? Ouch that was cruel.Saskwach said:
thanks for that, i read the entire thing, and while still baffled, i'm informed and baffled, and about the section above:werepossum said:
a common misconception, Australia is so full of kangaroos that on a still night, you can feel the earths crust bounce, thats the primary reason we gun them down... That and the fact they are delicious, thats right, we have the worlds only legally edible mascot (as far as i know).
Basically they're giant rabbits and are hunted down with equal aplomb as those smaller invader rodents. It's nice to have a hardy national mascot. We don't have to waste effort protecting it strenuously, as I hear happens for the bald eagle.Ultrajoe said:
funnily enough, conservationists have saved this majestic bird's ass! have they been taken off the endangered list? i think i heard this somewhere.Saskwach said:
EDIT: yes, yes it has. [link]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/28/AR2007062801562.html[/link]
I live in England where voting is not mandatory, however if you don't you are lumped in with those who suffer from apathy. I however do not. The labour party who swept in on a wave of public opinion have consistently lied to the populace and proven to be a poodle of American foreign policy. Also they have just abolished the lowest tax bracket to pay for vote winning initiatives for the key voting demographic making it very difficult for the poor to work.
I have had the misfortune of just becoming unemployed and have discovered to my horror that because I have worked for the last five years I am entitled to less money than if I had sat at home watching daytime TV. All politicians are liars who only seek to fund and fuel their own agendas.
The American presidential primary has been continously on our screens for months, we have been more enamoured with the Us than our own parties, this can only serve the people in power as they bury another tax hike or petrol price raise in the Us coverage.
Let us also not forget we have the least popular primeminister in recorded history
I have no answers but would dearly love a none of the above box on the voting card so the disaffected can actually make their feelings clear!
One last thought
Poly meaning many tics are blood sucking insects.
This is my first post sorry to be preachy.
I have had the misfortune of just becoming unemployed and have discovered to my horror that because I have worked for the last five years I am entitled to less money than if I had sat at home watching daytime TV. All politicians are liars who only seek to fund and fuel their own agendas.
The American presidential primary has been continously on our screens for months, we have been more enamoured with the Us than our own parties, this can only serve the people in power as they bury another tax hike or petrol price raise in the Us coverage.
Let us also not forget we have the least popular primeminister in recorded history
I have no answers but would dearly love a none of the above box on the voting card so the disaffected can actually make their feelings clear!
One last thought
Poly meaning many tics are blood sucking insects.
This is my first post sorry to be preachy.