Poll: Privilege

[Thaluikhain]

I find it strange that people seem to think that race, gender, and sexual orientation are the biggest factors when it comes to "privilege" surely they come after Social Class, Being able bodied and being of sound mental health?

Half-jokingly, not if you are in a good position on the last 3.

More seriously, privilege isn't something you either have or don't have, it's a number of separate (but intertwined) things you have or don't have...more or less everyone has some, but not all. Being currently able bodied and neurotypical are privileges that are commonly overlooked, though social class gets a lot of discussion.

 

[Dango]

To answer briefly:

Yes you are right but people are dumb and would rather spur conflict and mistrust rather than actually fix anything because they are assholes.

Though I will also say it bothers the hell out of me when I see black people who complain about privilege are completely socially accepted and have faced less far less prejudice than me, a straight white guy. But people are much more comfortable extending stereotypes in the name of equality than actually learning about something that doesn't conform to their narrow world view.

 

[SAMAS]

I find it strange that people seem to think that race, gender, and sexual orientation are the biggest factors when it comes to "privilege" surely they come after Social Class, Being able bodied and being of sound mental health?

You'd think that, but people discriminate on all kinds of criteria, and not all of them make sense (race is just one of the stupidest in a long line of stupid bases).

 

[sumanoskae]

When you express your philosophy of equality by approaching people with an advantage and saying "You're privileged", you imply that they're doing something wrong just by existing; that they are at fault even if the system is out of their control, or that they have something someone else deserves more.

When you approach someone who has a disadvantage and say "You're disadvantaged", you're homogenizing them and presuming victimhood. You assume they have been unable to overcome the disadvantage.

The problem with both of these approaches, is that they place the priority on the individual themselves, rather than the corrupt system they are both beholden to. As long as "You're" is the subject of the conversation, the other person is going to be defensive, because the topic of the conversation SHOULD be the system itself; people don't like being implicated for things they didn't do (Who would have thought?).

 

[False Messiah]

I agree with the OP, even though this thread contains a lot of good reasons why it's calling a thing by a different name.

I think that words have more power then just the raw message behind it. Calling someone privileged is a call to action, we as humans like it when everything follows the mean, the status quot. So when I say "this persons is privileged" there is an implied "This person needs to be taken down a peg, we need to remove the privilege". But when you say "This person is underprivileged" it sends the message that he/she needs help getting back to what everyone should have. It changes the discussion from "let's hinder them so everyone is equal" to " let's help them so everyone is equal", which I think is a more productive frame of mind.

 

[ryukage_sama]

The OP's objection is one of semantics. Not being a victim of discrimination is an example of an advantage, yes. I agree that in and of themselves, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientations, etc. should be non-factors for any number of treatments. The problem with replacing the terminology with "advantaged" is that it will fail to distinguish between benefits/detriments from race vs. those of personal traits. It doesn't aid communication to discuss positive qualifications in the same terms as race.

The term "privileged" is understood, even if it has a nuanced meaning apart the original dictionary definition.

 

[Something Amyss]

Not really, seeing as we're both in a position where we can argue about something like this, I'd say it's pretty obvious that we are better off than a lot of people in the world, who can't even utter their opinions without being silenced or punished, for instance.

Which operates from the basic assumption that "people" means "all people," and I'm not really willing to let you get away with that as it's disingenuous. And seriously, Critical Miss already covered the Gaza Defense.

To me, that sounds a lot worse than, for instance, if I couldn't get a job because they've decided that me identifying as a guy while still looking like a girl is me being mentally ill.

Sweet. I've nearly been killed for who I am. Can you evaluate exactly where I am in the hierarchy so I know what I can and cannot talk about? The intent was not a pissing contest, but since the worst you seem to have got is losing a job, where I've nearly lost my life....

Before you try and misconstrue me again, I'm not saying nobody has it worse than me. But if you're going to lump me in with you, and we don't have the same experiences, you're trivialising what I've been through. Yes, it's wonderful that I can talk about this on the internet. Not so wonderful is what got me here. I am privileged enough to live in a country that doesn't execute cripples, but not privileged enough to have been protected from hate crimes.

I suppose I wasn't technically silenced, though, so I guess I have it better than those people you mentioned? I don't know. Hard to keep track.

You know what? Fuck it. It's not worth the PTSD to go down this route.

 

[DarkRawen]

Not really, seeing as we're both in a position where we can argue about something like this, I'd say it's pretty obvious that we are better off than a lot of people in the world, who can't even utter their opinions without being silenced or punished, for instance.

Which operates from the basic assumption that "people" means "all people," and I'm not really willing to let you get away with that as it's disingenuous. And seriously, Critical Miss already covered the Gaza Defense.

To me, that sounds a lot worse than, for instance, if I couldn't get a job because they've decided that me identifying as a guy while still looking like a girl is me being mentally ill.

Sweet. I've nearly been killed for who I am. Can you evaluate exactly where I am in the hierarchy so I know what I can and cannot talk about? The intent was not a pissing contest, but since the worst you seem to have got is losing a job, where I've nearly lost my life....

Before you try and misconstrue me again, I'm not saying nobody has it worse than me. But if you're going to lump me in with you, and we don't have the same experiences, you're trivialising what I've been through. Yes, it's wonderful that I can talk about this on the internet. Not so wonderful is what got me here. I am privileged enough to live in a country that doesn't execute cripples, but not privileged enough to have been protected from hate crimes.

I suppose I wasn't technically silenced, though, so I guess I have it better than those people you mentioned? I don't know. Hard to keep track.

You know what? Fuck it. It's not worth the PTSD to go down this route.

And you are completely missing my point, but hey, accuse me of using the Gaza defence. Had this been a discussion about the western world, then yes, I'd agree, saying someone else has it worse outside that region is bad. but we're not, we were talking about privilege and how people are treated.

As in "lumping you with me", I was actually doing what you, along with other people have done to me, which is putting me in a category and assuming my situation and position. Yes, I am two of the letters of LGBT. No, I don't need your pity or sympathy, and don't you people dare say that I lack privilege, because I think I can figure out that for myself.

Besides, I wasn't attempting a pissing contest, I was making an example, probably one of the most common examples in this kind of discussion. But hey, go ahead, assume that nothing bad has ever happened to me, personally, I dare you. Because then you are the one trivializing experiences. I can tell you this, however, it had nothing to do with my sexual preferences or gender identity, it wasn't something that was connected to privilege or disadvantages.

Finally, yes, I don't like the term privilege, and yes, I do feel like there are issues out in the world that are bigger, so who are you to bully me into agreeing with you?

 

[Something Amyss]

As in "lumping you with me", I was actually doing what you, along with other people have done to me, which is putting me in a category and assuming my situation and position. Yes, I am two of the letters of LGBT. No, I don't need your pity or sympathy, and don't you people dare say that I lack privilege, because I think I can figure out that for myself.

And now you've resorted to lying about me. But you made a group of people like you and I, so you're not just lying about me, you're doing it right after you did what you're complaining about. And the strawman complaints about pitying you and saying you lack privilege, even as you chastise me for "bullying you." Come on. Nowhere in this thread have I offered pity, or commented on your situation beyond the one thing that you professed. And that wasn't pity, that was indignation that you might lump someone who has been sexually abused and nearly killed for being "two letters of LGBT" in with someone who has maybe lost a job. What about that says pity? Nothing. None of your claims are based in fact.

Finally, yes, I don't like the term privilege, and yes, I do feel like there are issues out in the world that are bigger, so who are you to bully me into agreeing with you?

Who they hell was bullying you? I don't care if you agree with me. I actually would prefer it if you weren't in agreement with me, given how dishonest you've been. I'd like my side of an argument to be in good faith, and I don't think you have that in you. You don't like the term privilege. Big deal. I don't care. At the same time, you're making up a case of persecution in order to try and make me the villain, so pardon me if I don't find that more than a little hypocritical.

 

[DarkRawen]

As in "lumping you with me", I was actually doing what you, along with other people have done to me, which is putting me in a category and assuming my situation and position. Yes, I am two of the letters of LGBT. No, I don't need your pity or sympathy, and don't you people dare say that I lack privilege, because I think I can figure out that for myself.

And now you've resorted to lying about me. But you made a group of people like you and I, so you're not just lying about me, you're doing it right after you did what you're complaining about. And the strawman complaints about pitying you and saying you lack privilege, even as you chastise me for "bullying you." Come on. Nowhere in this thread have I offered pity, or commented on your situation beyond the one thing that you professed. And that wasn't pity, that was indignation that you might lump someone who has been sexually abused and nearly killed for being "two letters of LGBT" in with someone who has maybe lost a job. What about that says pity? Nothing. None of your claims are based in fact.

Finally, yes, I don't like the term privilege, and yes, I do feel like there are issues out in the world that are bigger, so who are you to bully me into agreeing with you?

Who they hell was bullying you? I don't care if you agree with me. I actually would prefer it if you weren't in agreement with me, given how dishonest you've been. I'd like my side of an argument to be in good faith, and I don't think you have that in you. You don't like the term privilege. Big deal. I don't care. At the same time, you're making up a case of persecution in order to try and make me the villain, so pardon me if I don't find that more than a little hypocritical.

I'm sorry, but I've had conversations with you in the past, and I've had conversations with people like you in the past. I'll admit it, I was grouping you up with the people who has been acting like I need to be pitied, both here, in real life and on other sites, so yes, I was being a hypocrite. I am sorry for that, fighting fire with fire doesn't always work.

However, you're acting as if I'm being a bad person, you keep twisting what I say (or at least misunderstand) so that I appear to be the worse person, and you accuse me of things I haven't done. How is that not "bullying"? In another thread (which shall not be named due to it being locked down) you accused me of lacking empathy, and now you're accusing me of being dishonest. How can I not be upset? You're not even giving me a fair chance to speak for myself, and honestly, it's hard to express certain things in a second language. :/

I don't think this is adding to the conversation at hand at this point, but I just wanted finish the conversation with saying that. If you truly feel like you have anything more to say to me, feel free to send me it as a PM (be polite please), but I don't want to derail the conversation going on in the thread.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm sorry, but I've had conversations with you in the past, and I've had conversations with people like you in the past. I'll admit it, I was grouping you up with the people who has been acting like I need to be pitied, both here, in real life and on other sites, so yes, I was being a hypocrite. I am sorry for that, fighting fire with fire doesn't always work.

You're not even fighting fire with fire, here. You're fighting kindling with fire. And then accusing the kindling of bullying you/

However, you're acting as if I'm being a bad person,

EVERYTHING I have to go on indicates that's true. From twisting my words and then complaining that I misunderstand you, to lumping me in with people while complaining about the same, to outright lying about me, to trivialising me. None of these are good behavours.

you keep twisting what I say (or at least misunderstand) so that I appear to be the worse person, and you accuse me of things I haven't done. How is that not "bullying"?

Worst case scenario, I'm lying. That's not in itself bullying. That you have to drum it up to bullying speaks to that exact issue.

In another thread (which shall not be named due to it being locked down) you accused me of lacking empathy, and now you're accusing me of being dishonest.

From what I can tell, however, both are true.

How can I not be upset?

If being called on you doing things you are clearly doing upsets you, don't do them. But more to the point, you've had multiple instances of indignation at something I'm not saying. That's not honest.

You're not even giving me a fair chance to speak for myself, and honestly, it's hard to express certain things in a second language. :/

Then consider that I am not twisting your words, but that you are failing in a second language. I don't even know that this isn't your native language, but now you are insisting that a native English speaker isn't giving you a chance to express yourself when you say you have trouble doing so in this language in the first place. That's not logically consistent.

If you truly feel like you have anything more to say to me, feel free to send me it as a PM (be polite please), but I don't want to derail the conversation going on in the thread.

I'm honestly pretty sure I'd be better off for never speaking to you again in any language. But you don't get to tell me to take it to PM when you addressed this in public.

 

[DarkRawen]

I'm sorry, but I've had conversations with you in the past, and I've had conversations with people like you in the past. I'll admit it, I was grouping you up with the people who has been acting like I need to be pitied, both here, in real life and on other sites, so yes, I was being a hypocrite. I am sorry for that, fighting fire with fire doesn't always work.

You're not even fighting fire with fire, here. You're fighting kindling with fire. And then accusing the kindling of bullying you/

However, you're acting as if I'm being a bad person,

EVERYTHING I have to go on indicates that's true. From twisting my words and then complaining that I misunderstand you, to lumping me in with people while complaining about the same, to outright lying about me, to trivialising me. None of these are good behavours.

you keep twisting what I say (or at least misunderstand) so that I appear to be the worse person, and you accuse me of things I haven't done. How is that not "bullying"?

Worst case scenario, I'm lying. That's not in itself bullying. That you have to drum it up to bullying speaks to that exact issue.

In another thread (which shall not be named due to it being locked down) you accused me of lacking empathy, and now you're accusing me of being dishonest.

From what I can tell, however, both are true.

How can I not be upset?

If being called on you doing things you are clearly doing upsets you, don't do them. But more to the point, you've had multiple instances of indignation at something I'm not saying. That's not honest.

You're not even giving me a fair chance to speak for myself, and honestly, it's hard to express certain things in a second language. :/

Then consider that I am not twisting your words, but that you are failing in a second language. I don't even know that this isn't your native language, but now you are insisting that a native English speaker isn't giving you a chance to express yourself when you say you have trouble doing so in this language in the first place. That's not logically consistent.

If you truly feel like you have anything more to say to me, feel free to send me it as a PM (be polite please), but I don't want to derail the conversation going on in the thread.

I'm honestly pretty sure I'd be better off for never speaking to you again in any language. But you don't get to tell me to take it to PM when you addressed this in public.

Oh, wow. Ehm, I was trying to take this out of the thread in order to make it better for other people, actually.

BTW, I'm really sorry people, I know I shouldn't reply, but I'm getting quite depressed by all of this ):

As for me failing in a second language, I did consider the possibility, but honestly, most conversations I've had in English have been very pleasant, so I have a feeling that's not it. What I meant was that people tend to ask "did you mean" if something I say seem off, and give me the possibility to clarify. Perhaps that's too much to ask for, as I've noticed that giving people the benefit of doubt isn't too common in threads, which is sad.

For instance, you haven't given me the benefit of doubt during this conversation, nor can I remember you doing so, perhaps because you already think I'm a bad person. Instead of asking me if I really intended to sound like I was trivializing, or if I was trying to make straw-men, you simply assumed I did. As for lacking empathy and being dishonest, I'm sorry if that's the impression I'm giving off then, no one else has told me anything like that, but perhaps they were just being polite. :/ Then again, I do tend to make friends far easier than enemies, so that doesn't make much sense either.

As for trivializing you, I do think I made it pretty clear that you were doing the same, but I'm not comfortable going into details about that, I probably never will be, and certainly not enough to make it a pissing contest.

Anyways, please understand that I did not mean to insult or trivialize or do anything bad towards you, I was simply trying to argue a point, which doesn't seem to have worked well. Rest assured, however, that I've learnt my lesson, I won't quote you nor anything you've said ever again.

 

[Rellik San]

I never got things like this, cool I can walk and my brain occasional function smart thing like. Cool, but those aren't privileges or any kind of advantage, those are typical human behaviours. Behaviours for which I'm not guaranteed and interview, true fact for you; in the UK in most public sector jobs, those at a disadvantage physically or neurologically are guaranteed and interview, not necessarily a job mind and I can see why, but when I'm struggling to get an interview and I'm more qualified or have more experience it's hard for it not to feel a little galling.

The whole privilege thing is an annoying issue, yes I'm a CIS Gendered White(ish) male... who also lives in one of the poorest parts of the country, can barely make enough money to scrape by and can't afford to get the extra training as it's prohibitively expensive to pull myself out from where I am to where I want to be. I'm not an A-Typical case, I'm the typical case, I'm a person without privilege who also fights for gay and racial rights, ensures my work place is properly accessible for those with mobility issues and some of my best customers are deaf so I've learned and picked up little bits of Sign language. I'm mostly a left leaning libertarian or as the rest of the world would call it: Just left leaning... I'm reasonably well read, I know about computers and how to build them, I've been stopped by the police for the crime of having long hair or "looking a bit foreign" (hence the white(ish) part), I've been sexually assaulted in clubs and sexually harassed by customers at work, almost everything people throw out about things I couldn't know about because I'm technically privileged (even though I'm not) I've experienced in some way.

But I've yet to see those talking about privilege talk about me as anything other than the privileged, because I'm reasonably well spoken and can use big words casually in conversation like "confluence" I get told I'm the privileged, hell because I refuse to rally around that ponce Russell Brand and I'm working class from a working class background, I'm a class traitor and privileged.

Privilege in my admittedly insignificant experience, is a word people throw out at people like me, when I point out a logical fallacy or some such because it's indefensible, it throws someone down on to the table and is akin to the nuclear option, it's a toxic phrase thrown around by tumblr to insulate itself from those who don't agree with it... it's one of many phrases that don't add to the discussion it just detracts from it and whilst I see plenty raising awareness of it, I don't see many of those "raising awareness" of it discussing ways to combat it.

So yeah I'm a little hostile towards people who use that phrase, because those who I encounter that use it, generally, are the most privileged and protected of all and for them, well... Dead Kennedies put it best, they should take a Holiday in Cambodia.

Snipperooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Why it almost sounds like Zachary is guilty of using English as First Language privilege.

You see how easy and stupid it is to throw it out and put someone on the defensive because of this.

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh, wow. Ehm, I was trying to take this out of the thread in order to make it better for other people, actually.

I honestly don't care. It's hypocritical to say "I'm going to reply to you here, but TAKE IT ELSEWHERE."

As for me failing in a second language, I did consider the possibility, but honestly, most conversations I've had in English have been very pleasant, so I have a feeling that's not it. What I meant was that people tend to ask "did you mean" if something I say seem off, and give me the possibility to clarify. Perhaps that's too much to ask for, as I've noticed that giving people the benefit of doubt isn't too common in threads, which is sad.

Yeah, it was stupid of me to take your words at face value, especially since the "second language" thing only came up as an excuse to accuse me of bullying you. Because I obviously know your native language. When you're communicating here in English. Because reasons.

For instance, you haven't given me the benefit of doubt during this conversation, nor can I remember you doing so, perhaps because you already think I'm a bad person.

You made assertions. What reason did I have to believe you did not mean these assertions? Again, why is taking your statements at face value the wrong step? It seems that this is the default position.

As for trivializing you, I do think I made it pretty clear that you were doing the same, but I'm not comfortable going into details about that, I probably never will be, and certainly not enough to make it a pissing contest.

Except your accusations so far have been false. You don't seem to be comfortable because you don't seem to have an argument.

And you're saying I've made it "pretty clear" that I'm trivialising you, which is flat-out false, and then you say that you're not trying to insult or trivialise me? Bullshit, that's the same behaviour you accused me of when you said I was bulling and trivialising you!

And finally, why is it alright for you to insist I'm doing something, but bullying when I do the same?

 

[Something Amyss]

Why it almost sounds like Zachary is guilty of using English as First Language privilege.

English as a first language does give me a decided benefit when communicating on an English language board.

And with that, I just undercut your "defensive" claim.

You see how easy and stupid it is to throw it out and put someone on the defensive because of this.

You see how easy it is to admit that you may have an actual advantage without getting defensive about it?

Of course, by this reasoning, Darkrawwen just played the equivalent of the race card, and you've now undercut the premise of "don't you tell me I lack privilege." Was the intent to cut off one's nose to spite one's face? Because I think that's how it turned out. Two arguments killed with one line.