Poll: Privilege

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

I've been sitting on this for a while now.

Some people are discriminated against based on their skin colour, on their gender, on their sexuality. People are shot, rejected by their family, and are told they can't do certain jobs. Being a white heterosexual male, I've never faced any of this (might be different for someone else). However.

I'm not privileged.

You're disadvantaged.

Not being rejected for a job because of your gender isn't a privilege, it's a right. Not being stopped by police at a higher rate because of your skin colour isn't a privilege, it's a right. Not being thrown out of home, family, and community because of your sexuality isn't a privilege, it's a right.

These are all rights ALL people should have, but some are not afforded for whatever reason. These are not privileges, these are rights.
When you tell someone they are privileged, you're saying it's not something they are deserving of. But they do deserve it, and so does everyone else.

So; let's stop calling X people privileged, and start focusing on fixing the disadvantages of different groups, and give them the same rights afforded to everyone else.

To summarise what I'm saying (as if it hasn't gotten across already): These things aren't privileges, they are rights.

 

[Queen Michael]

The second option should have been "No, OP is privilege."

Seriously though, I agree with this 100%.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Should be rights, but aren't. Also, it's not merely a matter of not being rejected for a job...when someone is rejected in favour of someone else with privilege, that person is getting a job they had no inherent right to have because of it. Privilege most definitely does benefit people who have it (in various ways, not always ultimately good for them).

Privilege runs deeper than that, though. People with privilege don't have to deal with certain problems, and don't have to care about them either. Why should someone who isn't gay care about gay marriage? Why should they have to listen to anyone that does? What's in it for them? Often, they'll not realise there is any other way of society being, and resist any attempts to change it. The way things are seem natural and normal and fine for someone it works for.

(I'd also add that I'm hardly immune to this sort of thing myself)

You cannot do anything about the disadvantages in society some people face, without acknowledging that others are benefiting from it. Avoiding this issue merely allows people who don't want to deal with the fact they are getting unfair benefits to avoid acknowledging it.

 

[Zhukov]

*sigh*

Y'know, the first time I ever heard the term "privilege" used in this way it was in an intro to psychology and sociology class in college (AKA "senior high" in some parts of the world).

It was used as a thought exercise, specifically intended to be an inversion of the notion of disadvantage. Just a different way to discuss and examine the same thing.

For some reason this notion makes a lot of, well... privileged people reeeeaaally antsy. I've never quite understood why. For some reason the notion that one has had an easier time of life for reasons beyond their control, a little leg up in the societal scramble, just gets to people something fierce. Maybe it makes them feel guilty, or maybe we all prefer the comforting notion that what we have is purely the result of our own hard work and that anyone who doesn't have what we have just isn't trying hard enough. I dunno.

Anyway, at some point since then the internet got its filthy paws on the term and promptly ran it into the ground the same way it does with everything.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

Should be rights, but aren't. Also, it's not merely a matter of not being rejected for a job...when someone is rejected in favour of someone else with privilege, that person is getting a job they had no inherent right to have because of it. Privilege most definitely does benefit people who have it (in various ways, not always ultimately good for them).

Privilege runs deeper than that, though. People with privilege don't have to deal with certain problems, and don't have to care about them either. Why should someone who isn't gay care about gay marriage? Why should they have to listen to anyone that does? What's in it for them? Often, they'll not realise there is any other way of society being, and resist any attempts to change it. The way things are seem natural and normal and fine for someone it works for.

(I'd also add that I'm hardly immune to this sort of thing myself)

You cannot do anything about the disadvantages in society some people face, without acknowledging that others are benefiting from it. Avoiding this issue merely allows people who don't want to deal with the fact they are getting unfair benefits to avoid acknowledging it.

I'm not benefiting from gays not being able to be married, and I'm not benefiting from people of different races being shot. This is what I'm trying to drive at. Me being able to get married and not be shot because a someone was spooked about my race does not mean I'm privileged, it means I've got a right which I deserve being afforded to me, whereas someone else is not being afforded the right they deserve.

You might say that someone with better or equal qualifications for a job being rejected in place of me solely based upon their race/gender/sexuality indirectly benefits me, but the person in charge of HR being an arsehole does not make me privileged. I wasn't chosen because I was privileged, the other applicant was rejected because the one doing the choosing was discriminatory.

 

[Adultratedhydra]

I'm not benefiting from gays not being able to be married, and I'm not benefiting from people of different races being shot. This is what I'm trying to drive at. Me being able to get married and not be shot because a someone was spooked about my race does not mean I'm privileged, it means I've got a right which I deserve being afforded to me, whereas someone else is not being afforded the right they deserve.

You might say that someone with better or equal qualifications for a job being rejected in place of me solely based upon their race/gender/sexuality indirectly benefits me, but the person in charge of HR being an arsehole does not make me privileged. I wasn't chosen because I was privileged, the other applicant was rejected because the one doing the choosing was discriminatory.

To prepare you for the onslaught you are about to recieve from the check your privilege brigade on Escapist heres an example what you're about to hear:

You are privileged because you dont need to worry about being shot by police for existing.

You are privileged because you dont have to worry about being told you cant marry.

You are privileged because you dont need to worry about several things non-cigendered non white non males have to put up with.

You wont be able to refute these things because while they ask for evidence, any evidence provided will be called a false equivelancy and you will be told that there are FAR more examples of privileged giving you a leg up.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm not benefiting from gays not being able to be married, and I'm not benefiting from people of different races being shot. This is what I'm trying to drive at. Me being able to get married and not be shot because a someone was spooked about my race does not mean I'm privileged, it means I've got a right which I deserve being afforded to me, whereas someone else is not being afforded the right they deserve.

You are benefiting from being assumed to be somehow better, more deserving, than those people. It's not merely a matter of who gets shot by police, it's who the police listen to, who the general public believes should be listened to.

A group can't be considered lesser than yours without yours being considered better than theirs.

You might say that someone with better or equal qualifications for a job being rejected in place of me solely based upon their race/gender/sexuality indirectly benefits me, but the person in charge of HR being an arsehole does not make me privileged. I wasn't chosen because I was privileged, the other applicant was rejected because the one doing the choosing was discriminatory.

If the hiring person flat out decided that they wouldn't hire the other person because of those factors, if they'd rather have nobody instead of them, then yes. If they decided that those factors made you somehow superior, more worthy of that job, then privilege is working in your favour.

 

[carnex]

OP is perfectly right. But you cant get in people's faces as much with "they are disadvantaged" compare to what you can do with "check your privilege"

It's also funny, that "privilege" talks almost without exception comes from the most privileged people out there. Next time some asshole tells you about your privilege show him who makes his clothes, his food, how people who live on land with resources live and tell that person to shut their trap until they smell the real world.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

snip

I'm trying to stop it from ever coming to that. I'm not arguing who is privileged and who is not, but that much of what we call privilege is a right that everyone should have.

The second option should have been "No, OP is privilege."

Seriously though, I agree with this 100%.

Always good to see a positive start to a thread ^.^
Especially a thread like this.

*sigh*

Y'know, the first time I ever heard the term "privilege" used in this way it was in an intro to psychology and sociology class in college (AKA "senior high" in some parts of the world).

It was used as a thought exercise, specifically intended to be an inversion of the notion of disadvantage. Just a different way to discuss and examine the same thing.

For some reason this notion makes a lot of, well... privileged people reeeeaaally antsy. I've never quite understood why. For some reason the notion that one has had an easier time of life for reasons beyond their control, a little leg up in the societal scramble, just gets to people something fierce. Maybe it makes them feel guilty, or maybe we all prefer the comforting notion that what we have is purely the result of our own hard work and that anyone who doesn't have what we have just isn't trying hard enough. I dunno.

Anyway, at some point since then the internet got its filthy paws on the term and promptly ran it into the ground the same way it does with everything.

Maybe it's because privilege conveys a sort of "you don't deserve it" tone. Like, if you accomplish quite a bit in life, someone will go "yeah, because you're privileged" or something similar. I'm just guessing here, since I haven't accomplished much beyond finishing school. And like you said, the internet ran that right into the ground.

I mean I can understand if someone has something given to them that is isn't a right but gives them a leg up, like being born into a rich family and having more opportunities and resources. Being born rich isn't a right, but you could definitely see that there is an advantage to it.

 

[Adultratedhydra]

OP is perfectly right. But you cant get in people's faces as much with "they are disadvantaged" compare to what you can do with "check your privilege"

It's also funny, that "privilege" talks almost without exception comes from the most privileged people out there. Next time some asshole tells you about your privilege show him who makes his clothes, his food, how people who live on land with resources live and tell him to shut their trap until they smell real world.

What are you talking about? Surely a straight, white, cisgendered male son of a weapons manufacturer living off his trust fund money and monthly allowance from Daddys blood money is the PERFECT person to tell me about MY privilege!

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

I'm not benefiting from gays not being able to be married, and I'm not benefiting from people of different races being shot. This is what I'm trying to drive at. Me being able to get married and not be shot because a someone was spooked about my race does not mean I'm privileged, it means I've got a right which I deserve being afforded to me, whereas someone else is not being afforded the right they deserve.

You are benefiting from being assumed to be somehow better, more deserving, than those people. It's not merely a matter of who gets shot by police, it's who the police listen to, who the general public believes should be listened to.

A group can't be considered lesser than yours without yours being considered better than theirs.

You might say that someone with better or equal qualifications for a job being rejected in place of me solely based upon their race/gender/sexuality indirectly benefits me, but the person in charge of HR being an arsehole does not make me privileged. I wasn't chosen because I was privileged, the other applicant was rejected because the one doing the choosing was discriminatory.

If the hiring person flat out decided that they wouldn't hire the other person because of those factors, if they'd rather have nobody instead of them, then yes. If they decided that those factors made you somehow superior, more worthy of that job, then privilege is working in your favour.

This is almost what I'm getting at. The problem isn't that I'm being listened to, it's that someone else is not being listened to. The problem isn't that I'm being considered deserving, but that someone else is being considered undeserving based on race/sexuality/gender. Being listened to, not being shot, and not being dismissed off-hand as undeserving aren't privileges, they are rights.

Someone being a bigot does not make me privileged. It makes them a bigot, and it makes me hired by an arsehole boss. Or, adding the to first paragraph, it means I'm being liked over someone else by bigots

 

[Thaluikhain]

This is almost what I'm getting at. The problem isn't that I'm being listened to, it's that someone else is not being listened to. The problem isn't that I'm being considered deserving, but that someone else is being considered undeserving based on race/sexuality/gender. Being listened to, not being shot, and not being dismissed off-hand as undeserving aren't privileges, they are rights.

I'd argue that they aren't really rights because not everyone has them, but it seems that this is just semantics.

Someone being a bigot does not make me privileged. It makes them a bigot, and it makes me hired by an arsehole boss. Or, adding the to first paragraph, it means I'm being liked over someone else by bigots

What would you consider a privilege, then, if being favoured over someone else isn't one?

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

This is almost what I'm getting at. The problem isn't that I'm being listened to, it's that someone else is not being listened to. The problem isn't that I'm being considered deserving, but that someone else is being considered undeserving based on race/sexuality/gender. Being listened to, not being shot, and not being dismissed off-hand as undeserving aren't privileges, they are rights.

I'd argue that they aren't really rights because not everyone has them, but it seems that this is just semantics.

Someone being a bigot does not make me privileged. It makes them a bigot, and it makes me hired by an arsehole boss. Or, adding the to first paragraph, it means I'm being liked over someone else by bigots

What would you consider a privilege, then, if being favoured over someone else isn't one?

Everyone has the right to live, just because some people end up dying doesn't mean living isn't a right anymore. It's an extreme example, but you could replace it with anything you want.

I'd consider privilege being born into a rich/well-off family. You've gotten more than standard human rights. Which is not a bad thing, it has no moral implications; but you've been given more than others.
And no, I don't consider bigots taking a liking to you being given more than others.

 

[carnex]

What would you consider a privilege, then, if being favoured over someone else isn't one?

Something you have that isn't considered human right and yet you are entitled to.

For example, free contraceptives. It's lifestyle enhancement, isn't necessary for normal human functioning and yet people feel entitled to receive it for free. That is basic definition of privilege.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

I think the whole point is its meant to be a synonym, and that it calls for a more active action by those who are "not disadvantaged". it puts the onus on these people, the people without disadvantage to think about how they can prevent disadvantage onto others.

However privilege is the correct word for things that arnt rights. For example it isnt a right to come from a wealthy socio economic background. If my ancestors were treated as second class citizens in the past 100 years or couple of generations I would probably come from a less advantaged background, however my grandparents were fairly wealthy and had every advantage, meaning they passed said advantage onto my parents who went to Cambridge university because of their good schooling and passed the advantage down to me by educating me and encouraging me to be more academic. Privilege is a trickle down effect and it can build over generations.

As it should in a way, every generation should work to help the generation after theirs get a head up, your kids should hopefully have more opportunities than you did. Those whose immediate ancestors had a huge disadvantage in society cant trickle down the advantage to their kids, the playing field doesnt and wont level after a single or even a few generations. Privilege is never having that huge knock further up the chain totally beyond your control that limits your start in life.

Frankly in society the fact you can inherit money and effort you didnt earn or work for is immediately to some degrees unfair. But thats the only practical and fair way to go about things. That to me is where privilege is the correct word. You're privileged to have a head start relative to others, although arguably this could be said to be from a past disadvantage. The words arnt particularly important to be honest.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

What would you consider a privilege, then, if being favoured over someone else isn't one?

Something you have that isn't considered human right and yet you are entitled to.

For example, free contraceptives. It's lifestyle enhancement, isn't necessary for normal human functioning and yet people feel entitled to receive it for free. That is basic definition of privilege.

Bad example there, birth control (contraceptives) is very necessary for my normal human functioning[footnote]I have a medical condition in which my adrenal glands do not function as they should[/footnote]. If I were to live in a state in which it were difficult to get, or outright banned, I would be SOL. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who depends on the benefits of contraceptives for a reason other than controlling birth.

Birth control is a vital component of HRT (Hormone replacement therapy).

 

[shrekfan246]

I wasn't chosen because I was privileged, the other applicant was rejected because the one doing the choosing was discriminatory.

Those two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Anyway, I had a mini-discussion about this topic just the other week, actually, because I don't really see what the benefit is in telling someone to "check their privilege". The only real explanation I could think of was that it would potentially make somebody more informed about certain topics, or more mindful of people who are in a worse position than they are, but then I posited that just being more worldly doesn't make someone a better person. While self-awareness is a pretty good trait to have, it doesn't always have the impact it should. People who know how well-off they are compared to the rest of the world are still jerks every day.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I wasn't chosen because I was privileged, the other applicant was rejected because the one doing the choosing was discriminatory.

Those two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Anyway, I had a mini-discussion about this topic just the other week, actually, because I don't really see what the benefit is in telling someone to "check their privilege". The only real explanation I could think of was that it would potentially make somebody more informed about certain topics, or more mindful of people who are in a worse position than they are, but then I posited that just being more worldly doesn't make someone a better person. While self-awareness is a pretty good trait to have, it doesn't always have the impact it should. People who know how well-off they are compared to the rest of the world are still jerks every day.

If they are aware that their privilege causes problems in the way they see or react to things, then it's worthwhile pointing it out to them when it happens. Of course, this assumes a good faith effort to minimise such things, which isn't always going to be the case.

 

[shrekfan246]

Of course, this assumes a good faith effort to minimise such things, which isn't always going to be the case.

Yeah, this is what I basically keep coming back to.

My impression also partially comes from the wording people use itself. I've yet to really see an actual example of "check your privilege" that wasn't intensely aggressive, coming with the implication that the person should be ashamed of circumstances beyond their control giving them an easier life than other people. And when you load your statement that heavily, it's likely going to put the other person on the defensive.

Now, I'm sure there are some examples of a "privilege" discussion actually progressing in a civil manner, I just haven't personally seen them.