LostInTheCosmos said:
If you go back a few posts, I actually agree with you here. There is nothing wrong with manual labor is what I propose. What is wrong is when your boss or company makes you feel used. Even the most arduous jobs can be made meaningful and your skills (no matter how small) are valued. It becomes wrong when management treats labor merely as a commodity.
A manual labor job isn't inherently treating a human person as a commodity (it depends on how labor is treated by the management - and I agree that it CAN be), I contrast that with prostitution where the human person IS the commodity.
no, the sex is the commodity, just like my hauling bricks is. its the WORK being performed that is the commodity not the person doing it. a hooker isnt selling me her body shes selling me an orgasim. i COULD get an orgasim and never lay a hand on her you know.
Actually, we don't disagree here. We can agree murder is wrong, but the level of culpability is variable depending on the situation and circumstances. That is where Western Civilization implemented the "hate the sin" / "love the sinner" and put it into its judicial law system.
your reaching for a point that doesnt exist if you ask me. western law isnt based on SIN in any form. it just happens that a few things that are against the law are also SINS in most major religions.
This is where I need to point out that being too "culturally sensitive" is an exercise in absurdity. Some cultures have child brides - like Fundamentalist Mormons, Hindus and Muslims. Some cultures practice rape of women, girls and boys - like Aboriginal Australians.
The issue I have is if we tend to go for "lowest common denominator" out of cultural respect, I believe it is an exercise in absurdity. I think you and I came to that agreement on the Overpopulation Thread.
but the thing that we are aruging about here is what right we have to impose our culture on others. i mean if a hooker comes to you and askes for your help you have every right to say to her if you want my help than you must stop selling sex for money, but if shes asking you for nothing or otherwise not effecting you in any serious (denighing you some basic right for example) way than you have no right to impose your will on her.
Maybe as a citizen, this is true. The problem is when you are a ruler who has to impose laws, help people get a long, limit crime, etc. At that point it is your moral obligation to impose some law and order upon the populace.
I think you and I would agree with St. Thomas Aquinas's approach that the law is to tolerate some evils in order not to produce greater ones. It is wrong to steal, but we do not jail a child for stealing cookies for instance. Rigorous laws can do more damage than good in many cases. And that is why this is a welcome debate on the issue of Prostitution, and as many brought to light it's inherent hypocrisy with Pornography being "legal".
I also believe that abortion is intrinsically evil. But I recognize that we cannot wholesale illegalize abortion at the current state of our culture. That would be irresponsible and introduce grave injustices greater than if abortion remained legal. There is many cultural changes that must occur prior to illegalizing abortion.
neither you nor i are leaders, and i contend that any law that seeks to put someone in jail should NOT be based on a moral opinion. give me a reason that you would lock up hookers that DOESNT include any referance to morality of any kind and then we can talk. and im telling you right now you cant, if a person chooses to sell sex for money there is no crime there without referance to a moral code. now there are cases where say a hooker with AIDS knowingly has sex with someone and infects them, that id call a crime but there isnt a moral issue there, shes harming him by designe. and even in THIS case id only call it a crime because she didnt warn him of the danger, if she told him before they had sex and he did it anyway *shrug* too bad. its not societys job to keep stupid people from doing stupid things. and its CERTIANLY not something you should make laws about or lock anyone up over.
I wholly agree. Again my point above is what do you do as a rule, a law maker, or as a policeman?
For myself, I talk to a lot of people about the mistakes I made in my relationships. Encourage others to not settle for second best, but to really strive for something that will truly make them joyous and happy because they deserve better.
Some of the people I dearly loved have done practically everything under the sun you can think of (and maybe some you shudder to believe are possible.) And always, I see the common theme that they don't think they deserve more or better or think much of themselves.
Like I said in my previous post. They CHOOSE what makes them happy with what they are allotted. No one can deny them that. And no God I believe in would condemn them to hell for that either. (That is why I'm Catholic and not a fundamentalist Christian.) And it is my responsibility as my brother's keeper to love them and show them something better.
OUTSTANDING, i can agree with you 100% here, NOW if we can just get you to stop wanting too lock up hookers because they CHOOSE to be hookers we can put this thing to bed. (pun intended)
I wholly disagree. If we wait till we are perfect before we help another, we will never arrive. I say that we struggle TOGETHER. We journey TOGETHER. We make mistakes TOGETHER. It is my place to talk about that lofty mountain top, the view, the goal we are to attain, not as a judgment but inspiration of the people we can become - and we journey TOGETHER.
You can call me on my flaws, and as a friend I invite you to help remove the log in my eye. I'm not free of sin, but I will not cease calling a sin a sin.
What I fear is too many people hide and accept mediocrity under the premise of "Judge not" as if it was some endorsement from God to stop thinking, stop trying, and stop helping others why may not know better.
That's the best I can do as a regular person, as a human being.
But if I were a person in governance, in charge of the well being of the society, the peace of the public and the general welfare? Then I *must* judge, I *must* incarcerate what I think is dangerous to society. To fail to do so is negligence to my duties which is entrusted to me to protect the innocent.
i can see and agree with most of what you say. trouble is that we have to again come back to you wanting too lock up hookers because of your moral views on the subject. hookers dont hurt society they simply do something you find moraly wrong. and in a society where we ARENT all in agreement and we DONT all journey together you cant simply impose your will on others.
you and me we are alot alike. i dont have any issue with you and most of your points on morality i can totaly agree with. where we part is what to DO about our moral views. you want to impose them on others, i say newp the best way to show them your 'right' is to live well. you cant beat them with a stick you have to give them an example they WANT to follow.
no one has ever been converted to any belief by any sword. your not going to stop prostitution by making it against the law. thats just holding a knife to a person and saying do it because i said so. if you want to stop prostitution than deal with the prostitutes one on one. SHOW them they can have a better life by having one of your own. make them WANT to change on their own because they see by looking at YOUR life that they CAN change. that there IS something better. but you dont want to do that, you want the government to make the police pull the sword on them and lock em up. you would rather ignore the problem and put the 'problem' in jail than CURE the problem.
now i can agree that some problems you cant do anything BUT lock up. but you will never get me to agree that what a concenting adult person does or doesnt do in their bedroom is one of them.
. But then again, they want to cut it back due to the involvement of criminality and illegal prostitutes. As they want to remove all coffe shops within 250 m of schools!!!!!!!!!!!! 
